CARBIZ

I don't know why the link isn't working, but I should point out that the piece is actually a letter from the President of Toyota Canada, spinning that the Prius is the Second Coming. Growing up here, I never even thought of the Big 3 as "foreign" until much older when I realized, oh, yeah - Americans are different! :AH-HA_wink: Still, culturally and historically, the Big 3 have had a much bigger footprint on Canada's auto industry than Japan Inc will ever hope to have, and Toyota's President can spin that all he wants. Toyota has virtually no presence in Canada, other than a couple ASSEMBLY plants, a dealer network and a parts distribution centers. General MOtors designs and ENGINEERS some of the models here (Equinox/Impala.) Still, this is what is coming: expect a general ratcheting up of BS from Toyota and Honda to convince us (North Americans) that they are as North American as apple pie - or maple syrup.

I don't know why the link isn't working, but I should point out that the piece is actually a letter from the President of Toyota Canada, spinning that the Prius is the Second Coming. Growing up here, I never even thought of the Big 3 as "foreign" until much older when I realized, oh, yeah - Americans are different! :AH-HA_wink: Still, culturally and historically, the Big 3 have had a much bigger footprint on Canada's auto industry than Japan Inc will ever hope to have, and Toyota's President can spin that all he wants. Toyota has virtually no presence in Canada, other than a couple ASSEMBLY plants, a dealer network and a parts distribution centers. General MOtors designs and ENGINEERS some of the models here (Equinox/Impala.) Still, this is what is coming: expect a general ratcheting up of BS from Toyota and Honda to convince us (North Americans) that they are as North American as apple pie - or maple syrup.

It's funny what people consider "making some money." Sometimes, for kicks, I ask prospects that: "What profit would you consider 'reasonable' on a $25k car?" That answer is truly shocking - usually in the $400-500 range. Are they kidding? These are the same people that will blow $1,000 on a suit that the retailer makes $500 on! Or goes to Loblaws (a particularly outrageous major grocery chain up here) and spend $500 on groceries for the family, making that retailer a tidy $200 profit. There is one insurance broker we have had the misfortune of dealing with occasionally, and they "dictate" that we are allowed to make $600 on a vehicle. I wonder how much they make on one policy per year? (Hint: I've never seen an insurance broker driving a 5 year old Cavalier.)

Don't you guys get the Optra 5 down there? They are currently a huge BARGAIN up here. I priced one out for a friend recently, against the Vibe and we could get the sunroof, alloy wheels, upgraded sound system, etc. for $50 a month LESS than a Vibe, although the Vibe did have ABS for that price. Agreed that the HHR has better power, but the 2.0 in the Optra is comparable to the anemic 1.8 in the Matrix/Vibe. I would reccommend the stick shift, however. I have a lot of experience with the Optra and don't like the non-GM automatic. The Optra 5 is actually a very good looking car, and doesn't have the FUGLY seats from the Cobalt, either.

Enzl, your biases have reached a new LOW. I have driven the HHR extensively. The low-range stereo is not crap, the upgraded one is simply amazing. WTF are you comparing it to? The system in a X5? Good grief! They put F$#ing Pioneer speakers in it, for GAWD's sake! Perhaps it is your music taste? I have driven the HHR, both new and "previously enjoyed." I wouldn't touch the LS because IMO the 2.2 doesn't cut it, but the 2.4 is quite peppy when pushed; in fact, me and the service foreman went for a "spirited" drive on Saturday in a LT. My beefs with the HHR are to do with the high belt line (but then the 300 is also guilty of that one, too) and the poor visibility, which is also a result of the high beltline. I should point out, based on numerous customer remarks, that the visibility issue is also open to interpretation. At 6'2", I find the ceiling high, but the windshield low, plus both the A and B pillars are very thick. Roll-over protection or a design issue? The 2007 refresh has helped. I have been harping on the GM seats (Equinox/Cobalt/Malibu/HHR) for 3 years now. That nylon material must go. Whomever is responsible for that one should be fired, for sure. However, the graphite interior now finally available makes a helluva difference (especially in the Colorado) and I am hoping they get rid of it altogether. Fit and finish on the HHR may be spotty, not sure about that one. I looked at a few that we have and they seem to be all bolted down tight. Perhaps you had a bad one, Dodgefan. Personally, I am not a big fan of the HHR and they are not selling very well in Canada. One of the reasons for that, IMO, is that currently a base LS HHR is the same prices as a much better equipped base Uplander - no kidding: $18,995. I am not fond of having to sell VALUE all the time, but I can say that in its final year the J-car outsold the Civic by quite a margin up here. At $12,999 (about 7,000 less than a Corolla), we couldn't get enough of them. I remember we had 60 Cavaliers (two years ago) and thought the manager had flipped out. We sold them all real quick and wished we had 200 more. I doubt GM could have kept banging them out at that price, but we loved it. And our customers did, too. I keep in touch with mine, and most of are very happy with their J-car. MOre than most. IN case you think they are operating in a vacuum, a lot of people have more than one car in their driveway and are comparing their "crappy" Cavalier to their wife's Accord. Anecdotal testimonials are always of questionable reliablity, but at least mine are based on thousands of personal sales, not a few friends.

Guys, wake up: walk through any "Chinatown" in the favorite city of your choice (ours has 4 now) and you will see the hodgepodge that will be our future. Anything goes. Want to see Spiderman 3 on DVD? How about the latest Cds that aren't even on Cd yet? The Wild Wild West and we are fighting each other to get into bed with the Chinese.

National Post "Toyota: More green and more domestic than you think Stephen Beatty, National Post Published: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 Last week this newspaper published an editorial on the automobile industry and the environment. It began with an enlightening discussion on the industry's record, but then headed in a regrettable direction. It claimed that hybrid autos are a form of "false environmentalism" and asserted that the Hummer H3 is more environmentally friendly than a Toyota Prius. Then it referred to Toyota as a "foreign" company compared to automakers headquartered in the United States. Finally, it took the Conservative government to task for offering incentives to "foreign" manufacturers over domestic ones. The first claim is based on a study by Oregonbased CNW Marketing. There's certainly shock value in the Hummer/Prius comparison, and it received some play in North American media. Hummer, to its credit, did not jump on this bandwagon. Font: ****Their reticence was well-founded. The study was not peer-reviewed, and little has been offered on its data sources, assumptions or methodology. The study was discredited by three highly reputable organizations -- Argonne National Laboratory, MIT and the Union of Concerned Scientists. All have performed assessments of vehicle energy use throughout their lifecycles. An automobile's lifecycle is divided into two stages: the "driving stage" (the period it is in use) and the "non-driving stage" (which includes parts and vehicle manufacturing, repairs and end-of-life). The CNW study bases its Hummer/ Prius comparison on a conclusion that 85% of lifecycle energy use occurs during the nondriving stage, and only 15% from driving. The scientific organizations named above conclude precisely the opposite. This is an example where reputable science supports what is common sense for most people. It's unclear how the CNW study calculates "total energy costs," but it divides these total costs by the "estimated lifetime miles" of the vehicle to arrive at a "per-mile energy cost. The higher the lifetime miles, the lower the per-mile energy cost. The Prius is assigned 109,000 lifetime miles -- more than three times lower than the Hummer -- based on assumptions that the Prius is typically a second car, and is used in "restricted or short-range environments such as college campuses or retirement neighbourhoods." This is news to us, and would come as a surprise to Prius owners around the world. The assumptions about mileage and usage are simply false, and demonstrative of the flawed methodology and erroneous data. We are disappointed that this flimsy data were published by a national newspaper. This brings us to the second current running through the editorial -- the labelling of Toyota as a foreign company in Canada vs. GM, Ford and Chrysler as "domestic" automakers. It is time to lay this antiquated notion to rest. GM, Ford and Chrysler are no more "homegrown" than Toyota or our colleagues at Honda. All are companies with headquarters in a foreign country, and all have established manufacturing and distribution facilities here in Canada. We arrived here in 1965. An individual seeking Canadian citizenship must be a permanent resident and have lived in Canada for at least three years. After 42 years and a proud record of job creation, investment and community involvement, have we not earned the right to be known as a domestic automaker? Interesting to note that the Auto Pact was signed in 1965, allowing the free trade of autos and auto parts across the U.S.-Canada border. I wonder if that panicked Japan Inc., who at the time was well on to their assault on the North American electronics industry. Within 10 years, the North American TV industry was all but dead and the MITI's orchestrated assault on the auto market was just beginning. I do hand it to the Japanese, who plan in decades, not model years.

I missed your beef about the radios.....OH PUHLEASE!!!!! Maybe you should drive a Corolla and a Cobalt for a day. HOnestly. I don't know where you, Enzl, get this nonsense. At least the base Cobalt comes with a Cd player - something that cannot be said for your precious base Civic.

People's biases will effect what they like/don't like or what they feel is important or not. I have the opportunity to drive Toyotas (or any other make, for that matter), but choose GM every time. (Although I did sneak in a couple days in a 300 not too long ago!) Or perhaps you haven't read my postings that our company owns a Toyota store???????????? I agree that people may NOT volunteer what disappoints them about a vehicle they are sitting in, but you are assuming all salespeople (or just me?) don't have a clue what they are doing and don't know how to pry out of people what their "hot buttons" are, or what makes they have already driven and their impressions. I have never been impressed by imports, nor by BMWs, etc. I didn't grow up with them, and even in my previous free-wheeling, free spending days, I would never have considered them. That is not to say that I have not been in them, or driven them. The fiddly gadgets and viscous-coupled sunglass holders are truly awe inspiring, but people are not buying vehicles in a vacuum. Price is a HUGE factor, which is why leasing in the Toronto area (you stick to your area of expertise, and I will stick to mine) is now well over 60% of the market. (We are paying the highest insurance premiums in North America, after all!) I, too, would love it if GM could use the finest silk for their interiors, even have Sealy do the dashboards, but until GM figures out what to do with its legacy costs (or waits until Cerabrus paves the way?) we will have to settle with keeping up with the pack. I have lived with the Malibu on and off for 3 years and for $5,000 less than a comparably equipped Camry, it is a huge bargain - even with the cheap looking nylon seats. Even the National Post, whose auto section is paid for by the imports, admits the Malibu is probably the best kept used car secret out there. If we look at what products have come out in the last 3 or 4 years, it is clear that GM (Lutz?) does "get it" as each new vehicle launch has been dramatically better than the previous. I don't care if the new Malibu is "class leading." That only seems to matter to the auto rags and to YOU. I would SETTLE for damned good, well priced and quality that stands up over the life of the vehicle - those are what has made Toyota and Honda what they are today. Not by being CLASS LEADING in anything. The sales figures will eventually take care of themselves. Anybody who imagined GM could have held onto 35% or market share in North America when every manufacturer on the planet has this market in its gunsights is smoking very good crack. GM will (IMO) settle out at 20% in North America, with Toyota probably around 15% or so, then the rest closely grouped below that. Is there any shame in that? Is there shame in selling 4.5 million vehicles a year here? I just wish some Russian oil tycoon would decide to conquer the Japanese market and give Japan Inc a taste of their own medicine.

Fly, I couldn't agree with you more; however, I think the manufacturers prefer it this way. They can blame lousy service on the dealer, rather than owning up to the mistakes theirselves. I would rather be a consultant, much like a real estate agent. I enjoy guiding customers through the process of figuring out what kind of vehicle they need (as opposed to want), then going over their purchase/lease options. Unfortunately, everything bogs down on price. Since the dealer body is set up the way it is, the famous "dealer may sell for less" phrase applies and then it is a race to the bottom. Throw in a few unfounded boasts about "I saved five thousand dollars off my new Cavalier last year" crap, mix in a little disinformation on the internet, garnish with a little misleading advertising and you have a great recipe for an adversarial relationship out of the gate. Perhaps 30 years ago, that served GM and the Big 3 well. After all, if you didn't like the Chevrolet dealer, go up the street to the Pontiac dealer. However, I believe now that the imports are much stronger and desireable, this pitting of dealers against each other no longer serves anybody. I don't see this changing any time soon or at all, and here's why: the customers don't want it to either. Since the dealers aren't allowed to band together and fix the price, then what is left? I mean, how pissed off would you guys on this board be if you went to 3 Chevrolet dealers in a row and were told that they wouldn't budge off the price of the (insert your favorite wish vehicle here)? Ironically, Toyota got sued in Western Canada a few years back because a buying group complained they couldn't buy vehicles cheaper off the internet because the dealers out west wouldn't budge off the internet price. Toyota was trying to eliminate the haggling process, but that didn't suit a so-called consumer protection group (actually, they charged a fee to get you the best price, so I wonder whose side they were really on.) In any event, the dealer isn't going anywhere. As much as people may dream about buying their vehicle on the internet, they stilll need to touch, feel and drive the vehicle. Unless you want to put all of your faith in CR, MT, etc.

But normal customers don't go around looking for things to bitch and whine about...only people with nothing better to do I listen to real people's opinions every day, and nobody is interested in gaps. They are concerned about leg room, sight lines, fuel economy, PAYMENTS, where to put the baby seat, etc. As long as the interior is comfortable and gives a first good impression, THAT is important. I will concede that the base model 2005 and 2006 Equinoxes were disappointing, but then we didn't sell many of those anyway. I admire the passion some people on this board exhibit, but really - most people don't have the time to get out a dime and measure gap widths, mewl about engine covers, etc. They just don't care. What is dangerous is that CR and MT, etc, make it their mission to whine about those things and THEN the consumer takes notice. I used to enjoy watching those car shows on TV or reading Motor Trend, but I just don't any more because they are so damned picky and bitch about the stupidest things - not just the domestics either. I know these fat cats have to justify their jobs, but it just gets silly and it has taken the joy out of reading their so-called critiques. What seems to matter most to many people on C&G is to nitpick or whine about every little thing wrong with a car. Perhaps Honda or Toyota do sweat details that are important to (instert name here), but GM sweats details on items that are great when you LIVE with the vehicle, like cost of ownership and useful features even on the lowest vehicles (like automatic headlights.) I have always thought the seats in the Cavalier were the ugliest on the planet, but I have yet to see a single one that shows signs of wear - not even on a '98 or '97.

....maybe they know something others don't. We got wind of a $1,000 government rebate on E-85 compliant Impalas and orderd a gazillion of them. Now, dealers from all over are calling and begging for them. Plus, inventory that we have coming in now will have to last us until August or September, depending on ramp-up date of the 2008 models. GM also pegs allotment of a hot new model based on what you sold of the previous year. This is forcing us to stock up on the current Malibu so that we have any chance of getting the '08 this year. I remember a few years back we had about 40 Trackers come in - it was about this time of year. (Bare in mind we would probably sell 4 or 5 Trackers a month!) We thought the manager had lost his mind, but we did sell them eventually, AND we were one of the few dealers to get our hands on a lot of the Equinox when they first came out - and the 'Nox (despite whining and gnashing of teeth on this board) has consistently been a huge seller here.

I am not sure how the set up is in the States, but up here the irony is that Costco would have to GET their vehicles from a dealer - so how could they possibly beat a dealer price? One of the biggest fallacies out there is that you can save THOUSANDS by using a broker, etc, which is why I don't like dealing with GM employees. GM employees will shop and shop, then shop again, because they either a) really can't afford the level of vehicle they are shopping for or b) keep hoping some magic price will fall in their lap. Of course, what really burns up us pros in the business is that if you did ORDER your vehicle from Costco, you would have to test drive it, get brochures, etc. from...you guess, it - the dealer. One of the best self-defense tricks a newbie can learn on the show room floor is to sniff out a fleet customer from a dozen yards.

It saddens me that in this beginning of the 21st Century, a clown like this even gets recognition. It merely shows how very far that we, as a race and a society, have to go before we acheive true intelligence. I will always remember the hate and venom he spread when I was a student and trying to find my place in the world.

But this is the kind of silliness the drives me nuts..The CR-V interior is nicer than the Equinox? Perhaps it is - IN YOUR OPINION. Plus, the fact is it is the LATEST and NEWEST that Honda has to offer, and other than Acura, Honda doesn't have to worry about another encore next year for a different division. Now the Vue is better than the CR-V? Doesn't this get tiresome? I can only imagine the BS that the actual design/engineering boys/girls have to go through every time a door handle is to be rejigged!!!! I don't know how many people on this board actually buy (or lease) vehicles every year, but the process of PAYING for the vehicle is far more painful. The Equinox is a solid VALUE. It is decent on gas, low maintenance, has a solid ride and (as of '07) anyway, a pretty pleasant interior. I happen to like the CR-V. I wish the Equinox had its seats, for sure, but I don't think GM needs to scrap the Equinox just because something newer has come out. Unfortunately, too many vanilla customers heed silly disertations as laid out in CR, MT, etc. that nitpick and complain about every stupid thing. I truly believe that most of the Equinox's (and Malibu, to name another) strong points only come out after living with the vehicle. After 4 years of ownership, it won't be the soft, feely plastics or the gee-whizz dash lights that you remember, but the $400 trips to the dealership, the $1,500 door ding and your neighbor being laid off because you bought a CR-V. Or Civic, to get back on topic.

Attitude is everything. Our dealership has one of the strongest Honda dealerships in the city a half block away and the #2 Toyota store a few blocks away on the other side, plus VW, Nissan and everyone else around us. We see our fair share of import humpers, but the key is the sales staff has to be EDUCATED. Too many salespeople are transients. They jump from dealer to dealer, never commiting to any make or dealership. They have no passion and no knowledge. They drop their pants on price almost right after the meet and greet so they don't even get to the test drive, which is the key to everything. Unforutunately, many old school dealers encourage this! I have driven people in the Corolla and Cobalt back to back and find that a very successful way of selling the Cobalt. I would even stack the current Impala or Malibu against the Camry, if given the chance to show the Features Advantages Benefits and test drive both - ALL DAY LONG. The sad truth is that most of these Camry/Accord buyers don't have a clue what they are buying, they only know what CR, MT, etc. have TOLD them to buy. So-called "enthusiasts" may not be enamored with the current Malibu/Impala (OMG - no available 5 spd manual!!!!), but in ride, features and VALUE, both those vehicles have a strong story to tell. Of course, I am thrilled with the idea that the new Malibu will be the new segment leader, but that will only last 6 months until the new (Mazda 6/Altima/Fusion/whatever) comes out anyway. And then we can all bitch that the Malibu is not this or that and feel good about ourselves again.

Dodgefan, I had a '87 Shadow ES with the 2.2 turbo, 5 spd. Pretty quick car for it's time. I agree that the last generation Tercel was a pretty decent looking car, by comparison. I actually ventured onto a Toyota lot (gasp!) in '91, before I eventually bought (ordered, actually) a '91 Caprice to replace my (thankfully) leased Shadow. I was looking at the Previa, but my (ex)boyfriend had had a '82 Tercel (rustbucket - the rear wheels actually collapsed into the wheel wells), so he was curious about the (then) new body style Tercel. We took it for a drive. Not bad, really, but even then I was wary of Japanese vehicles and felt it my duty NOT to buy one.

31 mpg sounds about right for combined city/hwy driving for such a small engine. I have been driving a Pursuit for about a month now and am averaging about 26 mpg in combined, but I am very hard on the motor. My '87 Shadow used to get 29 mpg with a turbo and 5 spd. As I've maintained for some time, small engines do not necessarily get GREAT gas mileage when pushed hard. EPA numbers are a joke because the way they drive is not realistic. We see a lot of Echoes up here, and now the Yaris is everywhere, just because of that big "T" on the hood.

...and besides, in the city where we are paying $1.10 a litre as of today (over $4 a gallon for those of you south of the border) Tahoes and Silverados don't sell. We sell Aveos, Optras, Impalas, Uplander and Malibus in spades. Resources in this city would be better spent on comparisons of the Camry/Malibu or current Malibu versus Elantra, for example. GM has not lost the full-sized truck market yet, but the mid-size car market is the most important battle, IMO.

Enzl, try following the posts. The thread is about the '08 Malibu. I only raised the issue that GM is currently training sales staff up here on products and specifically mentioned vehicles that were compared last week. Let's not side track this thread onto why, oh why, Honda and Toyota are universally better than GM. You have already established that beyond a shadow of a doubt. :AH-HA_wink:

I think it is a great idea, but it needs to be handled properly, that's all. Without proper presentation, it could backfire; however, armed with back to back test drives (very effective with the Corolla/Cobalt, for example) and properly trained staff, the direct comparisons are very, very illuminating. GM presently does that with the sales staff up here and for those of us who pay attention, it is informative. We spent an hour with the Silverado 2500/F250 last week and the Equinox/CR-V. From personal experience, a well informed salesperson can influence the buying decision of a would-be import humper, provided the tone can be kept professional. It never pays to slam the competiton, which BTW, most imports stores are doing a lot these days - and that can work for us as well.

"We used to thin the heard and now we protect the dumb and look what they do to pay us back. " Sadly, there is a lot of truth to this. Triage, as the French call it. Dumping the excess baggage of an overfreighted society!

....sorry, but I gotta side with Sixty8 on this one....I would say 75% of the people out there are F&^king idiots! I just watched a guy at my gym today get on the scale, weigh himself fully dressed and with a full back pack on! I couldn't believe it! Then I watched him scrutinizing the results and I could see him doing mental math - what, was he deducting the weight of his back pack? I just shook my head, looked for hidden cameras (you never know!) and shrugged. I should have asked if he drives a Camry! I am sure this guy wouldn't have a clue how to check his oil or change a tire, so his engine shroud is finger-print free!

"Hmmmm.....a hell of a lot of consumers are purchasing cars and SUVs with that "expensive, unecessary toy." Really? In the sub-$20k class? We aren't talking Lexus/Infiniti/Buick category here. Remembering that the Malibu is supposed to be positioned below the Impala (and Aura, I would think). For $2k, one could get a several years worth of "Directions and Connections upgrade on OnStar, which is more user friendly and less cumbesome than a Nav system. OnStar does so much more than a navscreen. ...........but back to the topic at hand, eh?

"I just hope we don't have ANOTHER 1974 B.S. scenario & have to build more Vegas & Pintos" 1974 was not B.S.: OPEC flexed their muscles and probably sparked the worst recession we have ever seen. I remember the gas shortages and my father bitching about gas prices going up every week. For a while, it seemed like we in North America got the message, then the clever Big 3 found a way around CAFE regulations: SUVs not covered by CAFE regulations. Aren't we clever? Have we learned nothing in 33 years? Are we going to wait until Iran, Venezuela or Russia forces us to their way of thinking? The trouble is, when gasoline becomes $10 a gallon via market forces it will be too late. It is far better that we ease ourselves into more fuel efficient vehicles before we are shocked into it. I mean, we've had 33 years and still haven't learned. BTW, I know you know this, but the Pinto and Vega were out before OPEC had their hissy fit!