Drew Dowdell

You might want to look at what ppl are getting in 2.7L EB F-150 vs 5.3 Chevy/GMC and 3.5L EB vs 6.2L Chevy/GMC. Oh there is also that 5.0L in the F-150 that puts out more HP/torque than the larger 5.3L Chevy/GMC while having higher payload and tow ratingsAnd maybe pop over to Motor Trend and look at their RealMPG section too. I've done thousands of miles in both Expeditions EL and Suburbans. My experience is that the 3.5EB in the Expedition gets the same fuel economy as the 5.3 in the Suburban..... IF you use mid-grade fuel in the Ford. If you use 87 octane, the fuel economy of the Expedition drops substantially. Sooo, the power of a big V8 and the fuel consumption of a small one. Not bad. Er... no... it has about the same horsepower as the 5.3. ... and only the same fuel economy if you use more expensive fuel. On 87, I only get 18mpg highway in the Expedition EL (I do 90% highway). The Suburban is a reliable 21-22 mpg highway over the same routes regardless of what I do. The Expedition EL will only do that if I use 89 or even better, 92.

My argument is if one need to put 20-25k on the hood of a limited edition car to move it, obviously it was a rip of to begin with. And take a look at the as tested price in the video. It clearly shows a 10k difference. So yes, it is IN FACT correct. They don't need to put the cash on the hood. The 20% off is only available to the 10% of the dealer's stock by age.... so the 10% oldest new vehicles on the lot get that deal and GM isn't excluding the Z28 from eligibility. Let's not act like this is a deal on Z28 Specifically, because it's mostly going to be on manual transmission Cruzes and 2015 Volts. Buick did something similar last year. My Buick dealer had a Regal Premium hanging around that hadn't sold. The bought it themselves turned it into a CPO car and sold it for under MSRP while still making a healthy profit. So good luck finding even a single Z28 out there that meets ALL of these criteria and ALSO hasn't been put through the dealer trick above. And you better act fast... the 20% off ends today. But doesn't that still make it a "rip off" Drew, as some claim here? Only as much as the $10k plus in dealer markup the Shelby will get

You might want to look at what ppl are getting in 2.7L EB F-150 vs 5.3 Chevy/GMC and 3.5L EB vs 6.2L Chevy/GMC. Oh there is also that 5.0L in the F-150 that puts out more HP/torque than the larger 5.3L Chevy/GMC while having higher payload and tow ratingsAnd maybe pop over to Motor Trend and look at their RealMPG section too. I've done thousands of miles in both Expeditions EL and Suburbans. My experience is that the 3.5EB in the Expedition gets the same fuel economy as the 5.3 in the Suburban..... IF you use mid-grade fuel in the Ford. If you use 87 octane, the fuel economy of the Expedition drops substantially.

That Continental sold in fantastic numbers, well beyond what the V8 Seville did... and also far far greater than the V8 RWD Continental before it. I know what you're trying to say, but at the same time you picked a poor example to try and make your point.

My argument is if one need to put 20-25k on the hood of a limited edition car to move it, obviously it was a rip of to begin with. And take a look at the as tested price in the video. It clearly shows a 10k difference. So yes, it is IN FACT correct. They don't need to put the cash on the hood. The 20% off is only available to the 10% of the dealer's stock by age.... so the 10% oldest new vehicles on the lot get that deal and GM isn't excluding the Z28 from eligibility. Let's not act like this is a deal on Z28 Specifically, because it's mostly going to be on manual transmission Cruzes and 2015 Volts. Buick did something similar last year. My Buick dealer had a Regal Premium hanging around that hadn't sold. The bought it themselves turned it into a CPO car and sold it for under MSRP while still making a healthy profit. So good luck finding even a single Z28 out there that meets ALL of these criteria and ALSO hasn't been put through the dealer trick above. And you better act fast... the 20% off ends today.

It's actually a mostly brand-wide discount. It could be 20% off a malibu or camaro.

The rules aren't crazy... Piech just felt they didn't apply to him. No one else seems to be having emissions issues so far, but they use DEF tanks. This was about saving $345 per car in their bid to become the biggest auto manufacturer in the world.... now look where that got them.

There is no more XF-R.... there is an R-Sport, but that's the S/C V6 The TurboV6 v. V8 replacement scenario is very segment specific. Ford has been getting a lot of marketing traction with theirs in the F-150, but having driven a few, I'm not convinced of the advantage over a V8 in that application. In the lighter mid-size sedan segment, the Turbo-6 makes a lot more sense as there is a lot less mass to be hauling around. In the F-150, the Turbos spool up a bit more often just to keep the vehicle moving at highway speeds..... in the CTS the turbos are basically at near idle and 2 of the cylinders shut down. The CTS V-Sport ends up being just as fast as the 550I but more fuel efficient.... a situation that is very likely to be repeated in the larger CT6 3.0TT.

My rental today is a brand new Maxima.

Japanese - Infiniti Q50 - No V8 Acura RLX - No V8 Lexus GS - No V8 Americans - Cadillac CTS - No V8, but the top V6 matches the 550i 0-60 of 4.5 seconds Lincoln MKZ - No V8 Chrysler 300C - V8 Tesla Model S - No V8 Europeans - BMW 5-Series - V8 Mercedes E-Class - No V8 Audi A6 - No V8 Jaguar XF - No V8 Maserati Ghibli - No V8 So when you say "most manufacturers in the segment offer a V8" you really mean 2 out of the 12 (or 11 if you don't care to count Tesla) and one of them is a Chrysler..... that's most? And you work for a bank? No wonder bank fees are so high! The moment you say "but but... AMG!... Audi S6!", I get to say CTS-V and your entire trolling argument gets trashed...... and if you don't want to count the extreme sport models, then only BMW and Chrysler offer V8s.... Of which the Cadillac Turbo V6 matches (the 550i) or beats (300C Hemi) in acceleration. Cadillac DOES offer a V8 in the segment and the Twin Turbo Cadillac V8 is coming for the segments above the CTS ... stop saying Cadillac doesn't or won't offer V8s when you know that to be false..... last warning about the trolling.

So I worked on it most of the afternoon and I think we're all set. A nice side effect is that the site seems a bit faster after the tuneup.

you can build an entirely new Model-A Ford or VW Beetle from catalogs if you really wanted to.

CTS-V Motor in the Camaro Chassis with ATS-V suspension tuning Edit: ATS-V suspension tuning as a base.... it will probably be stiffer than that car

Why can't they put huge power in the Continental? (or the Lacrosse for that matter?) The XTS does it and when you stomp on the gas the power goes to the rear wheels, so there is no issue with torque steer. The MKZ, LaCrosse, and XT5 AWD system is even more advanced than the XTS.

Why was the Alpha SS brought up? Or a non existent gen 6 Z/28? Or a highly modified LS7? Because those are at least in the same realm of topics as the Camaro5 Z/28.

Why is the GM 5.3 being brought up? It's not a meant to be a high performance engine... it's meant for hustling Suburbans along swiftly and silently.

I wonder how quickly they can spin up production

And it doesn't matter... the Camaro5 is done. Even if the video was produced back in September, the Camaro5 had at most 2 months of production left to it. GM was just using up parts at that point. It was an outgoing design on a platform that began development in 1999 and using a 10 year old engine. All of this howling over the "fantastic" flat-plane V8... and for what? 2/10ths of a second to 60 and 1.16 second in a single lap? That is well within the range of driver error in a single lap. 2015-11-28.png Why don't you understand that it is actually a problem that the Mustang just barely beat a car with that kind of age disadvantage? I expect a brand new Ford Mustang GT350R to positively wipe the floor with a 6 year old Camaro chassis that is using a 10 year old engine and last gen Corvette shocks. It didn't..... and that is a problem for the Mustang. I'm not trying to say that the Camaro5 is better... I'm saying I expected a lot more results from the GT350R A) It does matter. The Camaro was not out of production. B) Driver error. Fine. Now the Z/28 is 2+ seconds behind on that specific lap. C) When has any Corvette come with Dynamic Suspension Spool Valve (DSSV) damper system? According to Cammisa, it was a " clear and easy victory ". Im not sure how that equates to barely in your books. A) it matters about as much as a win over the Pontiac G8 GXP B) or they were tied. C) My mistake, I was thinking Camaro ZL1 that has the last gen MRC. I don't dispute that it was a win for the Mustang..... the "barely" part comes down to the fact that the hard numbers were within the margin of error and the intangibles being... intangible. A) By now pulling out a defunct car from a defunct brand, you really come across as trying to discredit the Shelby. It beat the Top Dog Camaro, fair and square, while having a 10k cheaper as tested price. B) Lap after lap, that equal driver in the Z/28 is even further behind, he tries that much harder, and is now in the guard rail... A) you simply don't get it. I can't get that excited about this win by the mustang over a car that was very soon to be defunct at the time the video was made.... and is in reality defunct today. You are cheerleading for the Mustang, but all I see is a new car beat an older car. I expect the new car to beat the old car. But I because of all of the cheerleading that goes on in here about the Mustang, I expected it to beat that older car by a much larger margin. It didn't. B) Imagination is a good thing and I encourage you to try use it much more often... maybe then you'll be able to see more than one point of view. The margin of driver error goes both ways in both cars. Furthermore, a single lap does not have a sufficient set of data points to reach a conclusion. Had they done 5 or 10 laps, and given the best of each or the total time, I would have been more convinced of the results. edit: And just try to get the Shelby GT350R out of the dealer's hands for anything less than $10k markup over MSRP.

And it doesn't matter... the Camaro5 is done. Even if the video was produced back in September, the Camaro5 had at most 2 months of production left to it. GM was just using up parts at that point. It was an outgoing design on a platform that began development in 1999 and using a 10 year old engine. All of this howling over the "fantastic" flat-plane V8... and for what? 2/10ths of a second to 60 and 1.16 second in a single lap? That is well within the range of driver error in a single lap. 2015-11-28.png Why don't you understand that it is actually a problem that the Mustang just barely beat a car with that kind of age disadvantage? I expect a brand new Ford Mustang GT350R to positively wipe the floor with a 6 year old Camaro chassis that is using a 10 year old engine and last gen Corvette shocks. It didn't..... and that is a problem for the Mustang. I'm not trying to say that the Camaro5 is better... I'm saying I expected a lot more results from the GT350R A) It does matter. The Camaro was not out of production. B) Driver error. Fine. Now the Z/28 is 2+ seconds behind on that specific lap. C) When has any Corvette come with Dynamic Suspension Spool Valve (DSSV) damper system? According to Cammisa, it was a " clear and easy victory ". Im not sure how that equates to barely in your books. A) it matters about as much as a win over the Pontiac G8 GXP B) or they were tied. C) My mistake, I was thinking Camaro ZL1 that has the last gen MRC. I don't dispute that it was a win for the Mustang..... the "barely" part comes down to the fact that the hard numbers were within the margin of error and the intangibles being... intangible.

And it doesn't matter... the Camaro5 is done. Even if the video was produced back in September, the Camaro5 had at most 2 months of production left to it. GM was just using up parts at that point. It was an outgoing design on a platform that began development in 1999 and using a 10 year old engine. All of this howling over the "fantastic" flat-plane V8... and for what? 2/10ths of a second to 60 and 1.16 second in a single lap? That is well within the range of driver error in a single lap. Why don't you understand that it is actually a problem that the Mustang just barely beat a car with that kind of age disadvantage? I expect a brand new Ford Mustang GT350R to positively wipe the floor with a 6 year old Camaro chassis that is using a 10 year old engine and last gen Corvette shocks. It didn't..... and that is a problem for the Mustang. I'm not trying to say that the Camaro5 is better... I'm saying I expected a lot more results from the GT350R

STOP WITH THE BACK AND FORTH ABOUT EACH OTHER! WARNING POINTS GO OUT NEXT

The Mustang won over an out-of-production car... Next up, the C-Max Energi takes on the 2015 Volt? General Motors has all the ingredients today to take the title back rather quickly. Superior chassis (considered best in the world at the moment), superior power, superior suspension are all there in GM's pantry and they have the Motor Trend Car of the Year to put it all in. Enjoy the temporary win since it will be back to second place track and street performance for the Mustang rather soon.

The LS7 is done now anyway. The LT4 is what will most likely be used with 620hp to 650hp.

I am currently tracking an issue on our server that is causing the server to crash unexpectedly and then reboot multiple times in succession. You may see this manifest itself in an SQL error page or the site not loading at all, but it stops after about 30 minutes. It is not the dreaded database issues we have experienced in the past. Just letting you know I am aware of the issue and working on it.

edited you for clarity. Sorry Drew. " Victories don't come any clearer than this. The GT350 is the easy winner of this Head2Head ". And the Z/28 is not a 5yrs old car. It came out for model year 2014. The Camaro came out in 2009... the Z28 is just the hot version of it. Refresh my memory. Was there a 2009 Z/28? There is no 2009 Z/28 and there is no 2015 Z/28..... there is a 2015 Camaro with a Z/28 option package. The car is the Camaro... and it's been around since 2009.