What if.......

[guionM]

Throwing this out for discussion.

The linchpin of GM's restructuring is incorperating it's worldwide engineering and design to avoid overlap and to save alot of money.

Saturn is essentially becoming a US distributer of Opel. There will be unique models such as the Outlook that won't be sold over in Opel dealers in Europe, but the rest of the line will pretty much be identical, right down to the grilles.

Saab is now made everywhere except Sweden (Cadillac's BLS is made at GM's Sweeded plant).

What if you have a passenger car division (like, say....Pontiac). You have a successful model (the G6) and a car that's an established FWD volume car (say the Grand Prix), that's going to sell 120K plus per year as long as you keep it relevent. You want a GTO that you only expect to sell 15-20K per year. This division is going to be rolled in with another (Buick) that has a pricey flagship sedan (Lecerne) that represents what that name is about. You also need a sedan that defines this division (Pontiac) as an excitement division, and RWD is what you need, perhaps only about 30-40K of 'em annually.

Now recently (within the past few years) you have just spent a vault full of money expanding a plant (say in Australia) to make a bewildering variety of models off of the same chassis. You then decided to cancel this because it was too much to demand, and layed off a number of people. But you still had all this extra capacity that was made to produce SUVs, small trucks, etc.. But you decided instead to use small SUVs and trucks, etc... from what you already will produce in the United States. This plant will begin manufacturing sedans for it's traditional markets (Australia, New Zealand, and the Middle East), but still has excess capacity of perhaps 40K or so annually.

Add to this:

a) This brand (Pontiac) isn't going to be phased out.

b) This plant (in Australia) is expected to ramp up to full capacity within a year or so of it's new model (the VE), even though just sedans are scheduled)

c) This new model (the VE) will probally have a life span of about 4 years before it's replaced by the US version of this chassis.

d) The US version of this chassis's sedan is comitted to 1 division (say Chevrolet) for at least 1 and maybe 2 years before it goes to other divisions.

Noteworthy items:

1. 2 knowledgeable people taking 2 opposite sides on if a particular car (Pontiac RWD sedan & GTO) is being made.

2. A General Motors product Chairman confirming that a certain car (a GTO for 2008) is a "Go" (as well as mentioning a "Statesman" sedan), but says of Camaro: "There's no reason it wouldn't be approved" ..... at the same news conference! (worth noting that GTO and Statesman are Holden Australia cars)

3. "Zeta 2" (as it's coined around here) is 1 to 2 years behind the VE based Zeta. While Zeta turned out to be moderately expensive, Zeta 2 was designed to be low cost, high volume, and predominately Chevrolet's.

Now the "What If" questions:

1. What if you had a car that was created in a country (Australia) with exports to a particular country in mind (the United States), being made in a plant that has more capacity than it needs, at a time you are reducing the number of factories you have in the United States (you have only 1 in Australia), and you need a couple of high powered halo cars for a division (Pontiac)?

2. What if this chassis was too pricey to be sold as a $22K sedan (mid-level Chevy), but was just fine as a $32-35K one (Pontiac or Buick)?

3. If GM can turn Saab into a distributer of GM's global products, and turn Saturn into a US Opel distributor, wouldn't it seem logical that GM use 1 of it's US nameplates (or combined brand showroom like Pontiac-Buick) as a distributor of Holden sedans including a coupe?

Zeta based cars that were originally planned as exports to & production in the US, then were sidelined while GM restructured their entire RWD program, then approved in much smaller scope than originally planned.

No one has said we wouldn't get a version of the VE. Infact, it seems certain that we will.

[Croc]

I hope you're right...I really do. But the problem I have with your theory is that it just makes too much damn SENSE!!

[pow]

How about, how about... make Pontiac to Holden (and Chevy cars to Daewoo) as Saturn is to Opel? That leaves Cadillac, Buick, Hummer, and Saab, which can be global brands.

[cmattson]

Geez Guy, this is so straight-forward, simple, and seems to make some sense. You're either onto something or you're on something. Future Pontiac plans seem to be a complete mystery - and yet GM still claims Pontiac isn't going away. Everybody knows how long it takes to get a car through the pipeline and onto the street - yet here Pontiac sits with a largely aged lineup (sans the just-average G6 and the warmed-over Cobalt/G4) and nobody seems to know squat about anything with future Pontiac vehicles. This approach, it true, would certainly make the puzzle pieces fit together. Great speculation.

Edited May 7, 2006 by cmattson

[Croc]

How about, how about... make Pontiac to Holden (and Chevy cars to Daewoo) as Saturn is to Opel? That leaves Cadillac, Buick, Hummer, and Saab, which can be global brands.

Because then it would nearly duplicate Saturn, but with the addition of a few large RWD cars. Holden and Opel are pretty much the same.

[cmattson]

You don't need to import the entire Holden brand - just a few select models that would fit into Pontiac's 'performance' branding. Pontiac's days of being a full-size brand appear to be long gone. With that in mind, you could definately take a look at the Crewman (El Camino), the Tigra (Del Sol, small convertable), and Monaro (GTO), and the Viva (small coupe/sedan/hatch).

[pow]

Because then it would nearly duplicate Saturn, but with the addition of a few large RWD cars.  Holden and Opel are pretty much the same.

Like Saturn, it could be a mix of both original US cars (Solstice) and Holdens (GTO, Grand Prix, and more?)

[Croc]

Other than the VE cars, Holden and Opel share quite a bit. Holden has an Astra, Vectra, Tigra, Berlina...

and an Aveo.

I just hope guionM is right...it would be a great plan...

[pow]

OK, looking at Pontiac's current lineup:

Vibe -> Rezzo (a Daewoo; based on Nubira and "to-be" Cobalt)

G5 -> Astra coupe? (Saturn gets the hatch and sedan)

G6 -> keep; a reskin or two?

Grand Prix -> Commodore

Solstice -> keep

GTO -> Monaro

Torrent -> Adventura

SV6 -> kill

-------------------------------------

Continuing on that, heh...

Gamma - Corsa (Opel/Vauxhall, Saturn), Gentra (Daewoo, Chevy Aveo NA and EU)

Delta - Astra (Opel/Vauxhall, Saturn hatch/sedan, Pontiac coupe), Nubira (Daewoo, Chevy Cobalt NA and EU), Rezzo (Daewoo, Chevy EU, Pontiac)

Epsilon - Vectra (Opel/Vauxhall, Saturn AURA), Tosca (Daewoo, Chevy Malibu), LaCrosse (Buick NA and China), 9-3 (Saab worldwide)

Theta - Antara (Opel/Vauxhall, Saturn VUE) Captiva (Daewoo, Chevy NA and EU)

Zeta - Camaro (Chevy NA), Lucerne (Buick NA and China), Monaro (Holden, Pontiac GTO), Commodore (Holden, Pontiac Grand Prix), Statesman (Holden, Chevy Impala NA)

The G6, HHR, and other NA-only cars would have to be refreshed on their current platforms.

I suppose Holden and Chevy SA/Middle East can pick and choose between Opel and Daewoo Gammas, Deltas, and Epsilons, depending on local tastes, and vice versa (Opel and Daewoo getting a few Holdens).

So by sharing... there will no longer be US-exclusive Cobalts, Malibus, Equinoxes, G5s, Vibes, Torrents, Grand Prixs, Impalas, IONs, and AURAs, which should help cut development costs, I think, and improve the US lineup by eliminating redundancy (G5 =/= Cobalt, Equinox =/= Torrent) and offering more RWD (Impala, Grand Prix, Torrent, Lucerne).

Edited May 7, 2006 by empowah

[ToniCipriani]

The SV6 is dead already.

[Camino LS6]

With the Zetas, this makes complete sense. With the smaller cars, maybe not so much - Pontiac's place in the market needs to be consistent.

[Mr.Krinkle]

gm is finally goint to take advantage of its broad reach and use its global resources to their fulest possible extent. and you thought you had it tough strectching your paycheck the week the rent is due...

for a while ive had a hunch holden would play a significant role in gms turnaround efforts. engineering wise at first but now perhaps production wise as well.

i hope they see it through. or more so, have the chance to get to see it through.

[guionM]

OK, looking at Pontiac's current lineup:

Vibe -> Rezzo (a Daewoo; based on Nubira and "to-be" Cobalt)

G5 -> Astra coupe? (Saturn gets the hatch and sedan)

G6 -> keep; a reskin or two?

Grand Prix -> Commodore

Solstice -> keep

GTO -> Monaro

Torrent -> Adventura

SV6 -> kill

Actually, if I were doing the setup, it'd be:

Sedans:

G6

Grand Prix (restyle)

G8 (Commodore SS)

Coupes:

G5 (Cobalt)

G6

GTO

No overlap with showroom mates from Buick.

As for the rest of your post, a thought:

Cadillac > Pontiac > Chevrolet in price and position.

Sigma > Zeta > Zeta-lite (Zigma) in both price and position.

[Camino LS6]

I get it, but there are things to like and things to dislike in that lineup.

[Croc]

Actually, if I were doing the setup, it'd be:

Sedans:

G6

Grand Prix (restyle)

G8 (Commodore SS)

Restyle on what? W needs to die, like yesterday. The Ws are getting moved to EpsilonII and Zeta (Impala)...so the Grand Prix goes to...EpsilonII? Nope, overlaps G6. Zeta? Nope, overlaps proposed G8.

I say those two can be combined. Otherwise I agree with what you wrote.

ETA: Oh, and you forgot Solstice...

Edited May 7, 2006 by Croc

[Camino LS6]

Croc hits my main objection with his post. I can see extending the GP's run a while but another entire generation as a FWD makes me ill.

[pow]

Restyle on what?  W needs to die, like yesterday.  The Ws are getting moved to EpsilonII and Zeta (Impala)...so the Grand Prix goes to...EpsilonII?  Nope, overlaps G6.  Zeta?  Nope, overlaps proposed G8.

I say those two can be combined.  Otherwise I agree with what you wrote.

ETA: Oh, and you forgot Solstice...

Exactly... the G6 is relatively new... the convertible was released just this month. The GP, on the other hand, suffers from fundamental problems like rear seat room that'll never be fixed with a refresh.

Actually, if I were doing the setup, it'd be:

Sedans:

G6

Grand Prix (restyle)

G8 (Commodore SS)

Coupes:

G5 (Cobalt)

G6

GTO

No overlap with showroom mates from Buick.

As for the rest of your post, a thought:

Cadillac > Pontiac > Chevrolet in price and position.

Sigma > Zeta > Zeta-lite (Zigma) in both price and position.

The point of switching the G5 away from Cobalt is that Cobalt shouldn't exist, IMO. It costs money to develop a new one; might as well merge it with the Daewoo Nubira, since we're not ever getting Daewoo in the US.

This is all just pure speculation, of course... JMO of what I think will work.

[Croc]

I can tell you this, too. I am not a fan of the G# nomenclature; it just is too clinical. I would much rather see a Bonneville nameplate return than a Grand Prix. I could also see Grand Am sticking aound over Grand Prix, too, though my preference for those two is much more of a toss-up.

[Croc]

empowah: Agree RE: small cars. GMNA should delegate all development and design of its small cars to GMDAT and GME. Those two should work in conjunction on the small cars. Then they should be brought over to the US unadulterated. Opels as Saturns and Holdens, Daewoos and Chevys as the Chevrolets, the sporty trims of the GMDAT versions get new front and rear clips and distinct, sporty interiors...and these will become the Pontiacs. This spreads out the resources on a global level and GMNA will have the freedom to design the Pontiac front/rear clips and interior upgrades as well as build the damn cars in NA.

[MyerShift]

The plan makes so mcuh sense, it's obvious GM will do nothing of the sort.

Hey, GM Insiders that come here...

PROVE ME WRONG!!!

[LPE427Fbird]

Throwing this out for discussion.

The linchpin of GM's restructuring is incorperating it's worldwide engineering and design to avoid overlap and to save alot of money.

Saturn is essentially becoming a US distributer of Opel. There will be unique models such as the Outlook that won't be sold over in Opel dealers in Europe, but the rest of the line will pretty much be identical, right down to the grilles.

Saab is now made everywhere except Sweden (Cadillac's BLS is made at GM's Sweeded plant).

What if you have a passenger car division (like, say....Pontiac). You have a successful model (the G6) and a car that's an established FWD volume car (say the Grand Prix), that's going to sell 120K plus per year as long as you keep it relevent. You want a GTO that you only expect to sell 15-20K per year. This division is going to be rolled in with another (Buick) that has a pricey flagship sedan (Lecerne) that represents what that name is about. You also need a sedan that defines this division (Pontiac) as an excitement division, and RWD is what you need, perhaps only about 30-40K of 'em annually.

Now recently (within the past few years) you have just spent a vault full of money expanding a plant (say in Australia) to make a bewildering variety of models off of the same chassis. You then decided to cancel this because it was too much to demand, and layed off a number of people. But you still had all this extra capacity that was made to produce SUVs, small trucks, etc.. But you decided instead to use small SUVs and trucks, etc... from what you already will produce in the United States. This plant will begin manufacturing sedans for it's traditional markets (Australia, New Zealand, and the Middle East), but still has excess capacity of perhaps 40K or so annually.

Add to this:

a) This brand (Pontiac) isn't going to be phased out.

b) This plant (in Australia) is expected to ramp up to full capacity within a year or so of it's new model (the VE), even though just sedans are scheduled)

c) This new model (the VE) will probally have a life span of about 4 years before it's replaced by the US version of this chassis.

d) The US version of this chassis's sedan is comitted to 1 division (say Chevrolet) for at least 1 and maybe 2 years before it goes to other divisions.

Noteworthy items:

1. 2 knowledgeable people taking 2 opposite sides on if a particular car (Pontiac RWD sedan & GTO) is being made.

2. A General Motors product Chairman confirming that a certain car (a GTO for 2008) is a "Go" (as well as mentioning a "Statesman" sedan), but says of Camaro: "There's no reason it wouldn't be approved" ..... at the same news conference! (worth noting that GTO and Statesman are Holden Australia cars)

3. "Zeta 2" (as it's coined around here) is 1 to 2 years behind the VE based Zeta. While Zeta turned out to be moderately expensive, Zeta 2 was designed to be low cost, high volume, and predominately Chevrolet's.

Now the "What If" questions:

1. What if you had a car that was created in a country (Australia) with exports to a particular country in mind (the United States), being made in a plant that has more capacity than it needs, at a time you are reducing the number of factories you have in the United States (you have only 1 in Australia), and you need a couple of high powered halo cars for a division (Pontiac)?

2. What if this chassis was too pricey to be sold as a $22K sedan (mid-level Chevy), but was just fine as a $32-35K one (Pontiac or Buick)?

3. If GM can turn Saab into a distributer of GM's global products, and turn Saturn into a US Opel distributor, wouldn't it seem logical that GM use 1 of it's US nameplates (or combined brand showroom like Pontiac-Buick) as a distributor of Holden sedans including a coupe?

Zeta based cars that were originally planned as exports to & production in the US, then were sidelined while GM restructured their entire RWD program, then approved in much smaller scope than originally planned.

No one has said we wouldn't get a version of the VE. Infact, it seems certain that we will. 

Interesting thoughts Guy...I too hope you're right...

[regfootball]

You're either onto something or you're on something.

*copyright, COMMON MAN*

Edited June 12, 2006 by regfootball

[hyperv6]

I like the plan, but I would work hard to eliminate any overlaps with Chevy.

The last the better Pontiac can move away from Chevy the better.

In the old days no one complained that the GTO was based on a Chevelle but they sure hate to see the G5 based on the Cobalt.

Pontioac needs to use GM cars not sold in this country from Holden and they need to make their cors their own.