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Hyundai News:Performance Cars Dead? Not According to Hyundai's N Brand EVs


David

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According to the wikipedia list of Nurburgring times there are 89 cars faster than the Tesla Model S Plaid.  Including this $59,000 (base MSRP) Audi which beat it by .05 seconds

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And to update my earlier post, the E63 is not longer the fastest wagon, in May 2022 the BMW M3 Touring beat it and is now the wagon record holder, and is also faster than the Plaid.  So Tesla and the other EV's have work to do.  And I like the idea of EV's, so I hope they can get the weight out and get the cost out and come up with some good stuff.

The Ionic 5 N and Ionic 6 N are probably $70,000 cars, I think that's a lot for a Hyundai performance mid-size sedan or crossover.  A Cadillac CT5V (not the Blackwing) started at $51k, might not be as fast in a straight line but probably overall on a track is, and the aforementioned Audi RS3 is $59k! Now if Hyundai builds that 74 concept for under $45k, goodnight 300Z, Supra and Mustang (Camaro is going goodnight regardless).

 

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57 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

According to the wikipedia list of Nurburgring times there are 89 cars faster than the Tesla Model S Plaid.

I know you don’t want to admit that you are wrong and want to insist on us observing your new set of track standards but here are your exact words from your second post here. 
 

An M5 or E63 is still lighter than a Model S, and would beat a Model S on a race track.”

 

And then David showed where you were wrong. 
 

Furthermore (per MT last year)

While there's a long list of internal combustion engine performance cars faster than the Model S Plaid around the 'Ring, only two four-door vehicles are quicker than the Model Sthe Jaguar XE SV Project 8 (7:23.164 in a Jaguar-conducted test), and the Mercedes-AMG GT 63 S 4Matic+ 4-Door (7:23.009 in a Mercedes-conducted but independently timed test”

End of discussion. 

Edited by surreal1272
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14 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

I know you don’t want to admit that you are wrong and want to insist on us observing your new set of track standards but here are your exact words from your second post here. 
 

An M5 or E63 is still lighter than a Model S, and would beat a Model S on a race track.”

 

And then David showed where you were wrong. 
 

Furthermore (per MT last year)

While there's a long list of internal combustion engine performance cars faster than the Model S Plaid around the 'Ring, only two four-door vehicles are quicker than the Model Sthe Jaguar XE SV Project 8 (7:23.164 in a Jaguar-conducted test), and the Mercedes-AMG GT 63 S 4Matic+ 4-Door (7:23.009 in a Mercedes-conducted but independently timed test”

End of discussion. 

435509160_ScreenShot2022-08-05at8_25_32PM.thumb.png.f3e7a4f02b81c349e8dd3c8bddb94699.png

262613978_ScreenShot2022-08-05at8_27_42PM.thumb.png.bc2e191f6ba76780562068b7468eb167.png

7:29 is faster than 7:35.5 of the Plaid.

 

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24 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

435509160_ScreenShot2022-08-05at8_25_32PM.thumb.png.f3e7a4f02b81c349e8dd3c8bddb94699.png

262613978_ScreenShot2022-08-05at8_27_42PM.thumb.png.bc2e191f6ba76780562068b7468eb167.png

7:29 is faster than 7:35.5 of the Plaid.

 

So freakin what? The error is on MT then since it was their words. You, on the other hand, were still wrong as only stated M5 while the above is an M5 CS. Details matter I’m afraid. 

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Pathetic 'ole @smk4565

The Tesla Model S was never engineered as a track car.

Th Plaid version neither. 

The Plaid was made just as a faster than a ludicrous mode P100D version to counter the Hellcat Challenger and Charger, in a straight line...

In case you dont know, neither Dodge muscle car engineering is catered to track. Even less so to track on the Nurburgring. 

Pathetically, you are arguing about lap times of a sedan, the BMW M5 CS, that is SPECIFICALY engineered to track on the Nurburgring. 

The Hellcat Demon does track work though.  Its just that it aint the kind of track that you are so stupidly arguing aboot.  (CDN accent,eh)

The Tesla's steering, suspension, software programming for acceleration is NOT engineered and fine tuned to do track work.

Unlike the BMW M5 CS. 

The Plaid does have a track mode. It is software programming. It is accessible.   But the steering and suspension systems are NOT specifically tuned to track and to track ON the Nurburgring.  

The tires used on the BMW M5 CS are track tires. 

The Plaid does use Michelin Pilot Sport 4S.  But these are great supercar tires for the street. NOT the track...

Weight distribution on the Model S is actually superior to the BMW M5 CS.  Its heavier, the Tesla is, but if it had the suspension tuning and tires of the M5 CS, it be faster BECAUSE all that heft is BELOW the axles and PERFECTLY DISTRIBUTED...

Remember, Tesla engineers just decided to say phoque it, we are going to track this car and in no time, got the Plaid Model S to do a Nurburgring run time of 7:36.  

Just like that...  7:36.

It took all of BMW's rich history of tracking and engineering  ultimate driving machines to do a 7:29 on a more powerful, more tuned version of the M5 to gain 7 seconds on the Plaid....  

Which means the Plaid probably is faster aound the 'Ring than more than a handful of shyttyy German sedans ON THEIR FIRST TRY INCLUDING BMW M5s of the SAME YEAR as that track mode Plaid S.

Why do you feel the need @smk4565 to discuss and argue like a teenager? 

 

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1 hour ago, oldshurst442 said:

 

Weight distribution on the Model S is actually superior to the BMW M5 CS.  Its heavier, the Tesla is, but if it had the suspension tuning and tires of the M5 CS, it be faster BECAUSE all that heft is BELOW the axles and PERFECTLY DISTRIBUTED...

Remember, Tesla engineers just decided to say phoque it, we are going to track this car and in no time, got the Plaid Model S to do a Nurburgring run time of 7:36.  

Just like that...  7:36.

It took all of BMW's rich history of tracking and engineering  ultimate driving machines to do a 7:29 on a more powerful, more tuned version of the M5 to gain 7 seconds on the Plaid....  

Which means the Plaid probably is faster aound the 'Ring than more than a handful of shyttyy German sedans ON THEIR FIRST TRY INCLUDING BMW M5s of the SAME YEAR as that track mode Plaid S.

The Plaid has 1,000 hp.  If you took a 600 hp Tesla and a 600 hp BMW and put them on a track the results for the Tesla would be embarrassing.  Which is my point with EV performance.  And why I don't see an affordable EV sports car showing up any time soon, definitely not in the sub $45k like Camaro, Mustang, BRZ, Miata Civic Type R, Golf R, Nissan Z, etc whether you want muscle car, hot hatch or sports car.  I don't see an EV coming to take the place,

This N74/Ionic 6 N are more powerful than the Corvette (6.2 V8) and would likely cost the same as a Corvette and it would have no where near the performance of a Corvette.  Now one is mid-size sedan, not a lot of comps for non-luxury performance sedans except a Charger Hellcat.

 

Edited by smk4565
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Time for Schooling,

@smk4565

Per Wikipedia own website: Because Wikipedia cannot be considered a reliable source, the use of Wikipedia is not accepted in many schools and universities in writing a formal paper, and some educational institutions have banned it as a primary source while others have limited its use to only a pointer to external sources.

Reliability of Wikipedia - Wikipedia

Should you use Wikipedia as a credible resource? – Connors State College

Should university students use Wikipedia? | Students | The Guardian

Students are told not to use Wikipedia for research. But it's a trustworthy source (theconversation.com)

Is Wikipedia a Legitimate Research Source - Term Paper (termpaperwarehouse.com)

There is both sides to this coin and depending on sources cited in the Wiki page, some might actually be factual and valid for research and siting. Yet others are not and as theconversation.com site says as I have also seen elsewhere, spotting fake info is of the utmost importance than just citing something and saying it is true. 

Wiki is right on in saying that they are a great place to start looking for info, but one must do diligence to ensure that the facts are factual.

Yes, everyone makes mistakes and even I have made mistakes on sources, writing, etc. 

This boils down to apple-to-apple comparison of the facts and not mixing things up to fit one's personal narrative due to their belief being proven wrong on a subject.

This thread has been on a company that is producing EVs and NOT forgetting about performance. Comparing ICE to EV is an Apple to Orange comparison and as such, while one could say in old technology the numbers stand at XYZ, New Technology now stands at ZAB and future will be ABC.

Science is all about comparing like items and as such, ICE is used as a standard for EVs, yet EVs are surpassing ICE and the time is coming where nothing ICE can do will compare to where EV will go.

Evidence is in the stories you post that are all older than the EV stories or videos I posted. As such, in the past, we are now talking about the exciting future of where we are today and are going tomorrow.

Have a great weekend,

David

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1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

The Plaid has 1,000 hp.  If you took a 600 hp Tesla and a 600 hp BMW and put them on a track the results for the Tesla would be embarrassing.  Which is my point with EV performance.  

you dont have a point. period.

There is more to track times, than just overall weight being low.   Low weight is just a single factor within a larger equation.  One shortcoming could be overcome with another factor in the equation.    And 1000 HP versus 600 HP is just one of those compensations. 

But you simply ignore the fact that the BMW M5 CS has actual steering, suspension and tires especially tuned for the track, and especially the Nurburgring as where the Plaid does not.   The actual hardware, the steering and suspension, are not track specific engineered. To compensate, software programming does its best to make the Plaid handle the track cornering going in and out of and leading back unto the straights. 

Unlike the CS's hardware where the hardware is specifically designed to do so.  On top of all that, the M5 CS is track tested specifically to run on the 'Ring to run fast times there.  Which also means that the CS might not be so dominant on another track since different tracks have different characteristics.  Anyways....    Also, the CS's tires are track specific tires.   Th Plaid has go fast grippy tires for the street. 

And the result is ONLY a 7 second difference...  Not much considering the Tesla's platform was primarily engineered to house a heavy battery and to be as efficient as possible for range, comfort, speed (in a straight line) for the street for daily driven purposes.

The 5 Series BMW  is a sports sedan known for cornering prowess. The M5 version of that is an even better sports sedan with even better cornering and the CS version is just a beast on the track because THAT is what its meant to do. All its hardware is meant to be a sports sedan for the street with very capable track prowess.

The Plaid is simply NOT a track car.  The Plaid is an EV to where most of the weight is perfectly and evenly distributed below the axles.  A factor that benefits track racing. A skateboard EV platform allows for that.  An ICE vehicle does not have that advantage.  Weight is a disadvantage for an EV, but the skateboard platform, battery on the bottom,  compensates for it.  

EV motors have instantaneous torque at any RPM, another advantage for EVs versus ICE.  Easy horsepower for EVs is another advantage. 

The ONLY things that could be the same for both EV and ICE ARE the suspension and steering components.  The BMW M5 CS chooses to have track oriented components while the Plaid does not.

The 7 second difference does not come from the difference in weight of the two, its the track specific steering, suspension and tires...  And possibly the engineering history of going fast around the track that BMW enjoys over Tesla.  But not too shabby for Tesla's 1st attempt...

You make it sound that EVs cant be competitive around the track because of heft, but the Plaid's 7:36 time around the 'Ring says otherwise...

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To boot

The CS loses MORE weight. Carbon fibre hood, etc. to lose an extra 250 pounds or so.  Weighs in at a svelte 4000 lbs for a midsized, 4 door family hauling sedan.

The Plaid simply doesnt care to shed ANY additional poundage.  A carbon fibre hood, trunk, bumpers could eliminate some weight, but Tesla didnt do carbon fibre anything on the Plaid..  Tesla didnt build the Plaid to specifically go fast aound the 'Ring like BMW did the CS.  Tesla just wanted to show Porsche and the world that an EV CAN go fast around the 'Ring.   

Edited by oldshurst442
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Very cool to still watch for a street legal production car with street tires and suspension. For most people, 7 seconds is not identifiable unlike auto enthusiast. 

 

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3 minutes ago, David said:

Very cool to still watch for a street legal production car with street tires and suspension. For most people, 7 seconds is not identifiable unlike auto enthusiast. 

 

 The video just proves that the Plaid desperately needs appropriate track oriented suspension and tires.  Its bouncing up and down and is everywhere on the track.  

PS:  at 4700 lbs, it aint even all that much heavy, to be honest...   It is an aluminum chassis and body after all...  

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About the N 74 or whatever Hyundai is calling it.

Even though I am not feeling the look of it, I certainly approve of it and all Hyundai is trying to do with their EVs and especially their performance take on them..  

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7 hours ago, smk4565 said:

The Plaid has 1,000 hp.  If you took a 600 hp Tesla and a 600 hp BMW and put them on a track the results for the Tesla would be embarrassing.  Which is my point with EV performance.  And why I don't see an affordable EV sports car showing up any time soon, definitely not in the sub $45k like Camaro, Mustang, BRZ, Miata Civic Type R, Golf R, Nissan Z, etc whether you want muscle car, hot hatch or sports car.  I don't see an EV coming to take the place,

This N74/Ionic 6 N are more powerful than the Corvette (6.2 V8) and would likely cost the same as a Corvette and it would have no where near the performance of a Corvette.  Now one is mid-size sedan, not a lot of comps for non-luxury performance sedans except a Charger Hellcat.

 

Again, ignoring important and relevant facts in order to save face and move that bar once more. 

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7:42

EV

Porsche Taycan Turbo and NOT the Turbo S

HP for Taycan Turbo 670.    Turbo S @ 750  Plaid @ 1020HP

weight for the Taycan 5200 lbs versus the Plaid @ 4700 lbs

for reference how a track specific ice car handles on the Nurburgring versus another that is not

 

But the suspension is track specific.  Watch the video and see how the Taycan is smooth on the track versus how rough the Plaid Tesla is.  The Taycan is planted while the Model S is bouncing up and down and side to side sloppy all over the place.  The Taycan IS heavier by 500 lbs.   And still, the Model S Plaid was faster because of the HP difference.    But the track suspension makes us see the difference between the two...

But Porsche decided to use a less powerful Taycan... That is interesting... 

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a29088855/porsche-taycan-turbo-s-nurburgring-lap-time/#:~:text=While the Turbo S makes,616 horses after that interval.

 

Quote

 

Did Porsche leave time on the table when it claimed the Nürburgring lap record for a production electric vehicle? Stefan Weckbach, vice president of the Taycan product line, revealed to Car and Driver that the 7:42 record was set with a Taycan Turbo instead of the company’s more powerful Taycan Turbo S.

 

 

for reference how a track specific ice car handles on the Nurburgring versus another that is not.  The instructor in the Hellcat knows the track quite well and does and fantastic job communicating with the driver what to do, and ANYBODY that says the Hellcat cant handle twisties is just ignorant AF, but you could see the Hellcat is out of its element.  But the Hellcat does NOT have track specific suspension...

watch and analyze all videos @smk4565.   You will learn something and will make you stop spewing garbage. It is your birthday TODAY. So HAPPY BIRRTHDAY.  

Birthdays GIFs - Get the best GIF on GIPHY

I give you the gift of knowledge!!!

 

 

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8 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

To boot

The CS loses MORE weight. Carbon fibre hood, etc. to lose an extra 250 pounds or so.  Weighs in at a svelte 4000 lbs for a midsized, 4 door family hauling sedan.

The Plaid simply doesnt care to shed ANY additional poundage.  A carbon fibre hood, trunk, bumpers could eliminate some weight, but Tesla didnt do carbon fibre anything on the Plaid..  Tesla didnt build the Plaid to specifically go fast aound the 'Ring like BMW did the CS.  Tesla just wanted to show Porsche and the world that an EV CAN go fast around the 'Ring.   

Correct that Tesla chose not to make the Plaid have the upgraded brakes, suspension, tires, weight reduction etc.  And that's their choice, but I wouldn't claim the Plaid as peak engineering since they just basically just added 1 motor and cranked up the voltage compared to the standard model.  Tesla could offer a performance or track package and I'm sure people would buy it.  But to Tesla (and other EV's) performance is 0-60 and 1/4 mile time and it isn't all straight line.

And the Plaid is faster than the Taycan and e-Tron GT around the track, but the Panamera is faster than the Taycan, the Audi RS3 is faster than the e-Tron GT, within the same brand the ICE cars are still faster because of EV weight.  Which I get eventually the batteries will get lighter and resolve a lot of that problem.

But we are talking high end cars with the Plaid and M5 CS.  What about a $40,000 sports car?    Or $50,000?  You won't get a fun to drive sports car, just a heavy EV that goes in a straight line, because they don't care about brakes, handling, suspension, etc, at least Tesla doesn't.  And the rest of these guys like to copy Tesla.

Final example, 

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184" L x 74" W x 60" H at 4800 lbs

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187" L x 71" W x 56" H at 3860 lbs

Both close in size, both cost in the high $60s, the Kia will easily beat the Cadillac 0-60 and 1/4 mile.  But I am guessing the Cadillac with 1,000 less pounds of weight is a much better to drive car.  And this is the EV problem, if Cadillac makes and Electric CT4, then it's a 4800 lb car that will handle like a 7-series or S-class, and the only thing the CT4 is good at is gone.  

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1 hour ago, oldshurst442 said:

7:42

EV

Porsche Taycan Turbo and NOT the Turbo S

HP for Taycan Turbo 670.    Turbo S @ 750  Plaid @ 1020HP

weight for the Taycan 5200 lbs versus the Plaid @ 4700 lbs

for reference how a track specific ice car handles on the Nurburgring versus another that is not

 

But the suspension is track specific.  Watch the video and see how the Taycan is smooth on the track versus how rough the Plaid Tesla is.  The Taycan is planted while the Model S is bouncing up and down and side to side sloppy all over the place.  The Taycan IS heavier by 500 lbs.   And still, the Model S Plaid was faster because of the HP difference.    But the track suspension makes us see the difference between the two...

But Porsche decided to use a less powerful Taycan... That is interesting... 

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a29088855/porsche-taycan-turbo-s-nurburgring-lap-time/#:~:text=While the Turbo S makes,616 horses after that interval.

 

 

for reference how a track specific ice car handles on the Nurburgring versus another that is not.  The instructor in the Hellcat knows the track quite well and does and fantastic job communicating with the driver what to do, and ANYBODY that says the Hellcat cant handle twisties is just ignorant AF, but you could see the Hellcat is out of its element.  But the Hellcat does NOT have track specific suspension...

watch and analyze all videos @smk4565.   You will learn something and will make you stop spewing garbage. It is your birthday TODAY. So HAPPY BIRRTHDAY.  

Birthdays GIFs - Get the best GIF on GIPHY

I give you the gift of knowledge!!!

 

 

Which proves my point that these "performance" EV's have trash handling, the M5 is the only one that looks like it belongs out there, the rest are mess in the handling department.  I want to see someone do a performance EV that isn't just rip your face off acceleration, and is actually a good handling car.  On an ICE car, like a Camaro, you can keep the same engine, and upgrade to the 1LE suspension, get the better brakes, etc.  On EV's the performance upgrade is bigger battery, bigger motor, penalize handling more for straight line speed.

Edited by smk4565
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1 minute ago, smk4565 said:

1,000 less pounds of weight is a much better to drive car

nein.

The EV weight is BELOW the axles MASKING the heft quite nicely...  EVERY journalist, youtube influencer,  tear down reverse engineer and especially race car drivers says so...and quite frankly, physics...   Low center of gravity greatly improves handling and a skateboard EV platform is just that. Very low center of gravity no matter the weight.  And because the motors are directly connected to the driving wheels with no transmissions and driveshafts to contend with, your talk is simply bullshyte....

why do you insist on spewing garbage talk.

Should I start calling you Alex Jones?

Alex Jones GIFs | Tenor

 

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8 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Which proves my point that these "performance" EV's have trash handling,

Nein....

UnpluggedPerformance super performance springs...

Listen to what Pobst says through the ENTIRE video...

Its the SUSPENSION that makes the difference...NOT the weight...

 

Listen to what he does and says about EVs and THIS particular EV has its OEM suspension parts...remember, THIS EV is the heaviest of the EVs we are talking about, Alex...

 

Notice, weight is NEVER mentioned? 

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It proves nothing unless you want to remember that your average ICE (even from the Germans) is $h! on that track without all the adjustments mentioned for the Tesla (suspension, tires, etc). Just pure faulty logic there.

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@oldshurst442 Thank you for posting, Randy Pobst has again proven my point way back at the beginning about Engineering. It is never the weight, but engineering to tune an auto to perform it's best and a tune of Suspension parts for track make that difference as you, @surreal1272 and myself keep saying.

Since Olds brought it to our attention and everyone deserves a special day.

@smk4565 Happy Birthday, I hope you have an enjoyable day whatever you choose to do.

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3 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

nein.

The EV weight is BELOW the axles MASKING the heft quite nicely...  EVERY journalist, youtube influencer,  tear down reverse engineer and especially race car drivers says so...and quite frankly, physics...   Low center of gravity greatly improves handling and a skateboard EV platform is just that. Very low center of gravity no matter the weight.  And because the motors are directly connected to the driving wheels with no transmissions and driveshafts to contend with, your talk is simply bullshyte....

why do you insist on spewing garbage talk.

Should I start calling you Alex Jones?

Alex Jones GIFs | Tenor

 

So you are saying a Kia EV6 GT is a better handling car than a Cadillac CT4 Blackwing?  Model S Tesla handles better than an CT5 Blackwing?

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2 hours ago, David said:

@oldshurst442 Thank you for posting, Randy Pobst has again proven my point way back at the beginning about Engineering. It is never the weight, but engineering to tune an auto to perform it's best and a tune of Suspension parts for track make that difference as you, @surreal1272 and myself keep saying.

Since Olds brought it to our attention and everyone deserves a special day.

@smk4565 Happy Birthday, I hope you have an enjoyable day whatever you choose to do.

The weight matters, the Model S Plaid has over double the horsepower of a Corvette, does a 9.2 second quarter mile compared to the Corvette's 11.2 and the Corvette would beat it on any track in the world that has more than 1 corner and 1 braking zone.  So if you make horsepower equal, say a Model 3 Performance vs a Corvette, I don't care what suspension parts they put on a Model 3, it isn't beating a Corvette on a track.  

And if Hyundai is going to make the N 74 or Ioniq 6 N handle like a sports car, how expensive is the suspension and brakes going to be to make that happen?  And how many buyers are out there for a $75,000 Hyundai performance sedan?  I don't see many Sonata N's out there and those are like $34,000 and they are killing the Sonata after this generation is word on the street.

And thank you all for the birthday wishes. 

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3 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

So you are saying a Kia EV6 GT is a better handling car than a Cadillac CT4 Blackwing?  Model S Tesla handles better than an CT5 Blackwing?

Hey Alex...

Stop the bullshytting once and for all. 

A Blackwing is engineered to handle with specific track suspension systems.  The KIA EV6 and Model S are engineered just to be driven on the street. Low center of gravity does the rest. 

What it is that you dont understand?

The Taycan, heavier and slower than the Model S is smooth on a track BECAUSE of the suspension...

Are you dense?

This is what a proper suspension for tracking Model S does...

Id say it kicks the Blackwing's a$$... 

 

 

 

 

It aint the phoquing weight,  Alex...

weight is but one factor...

The weight is below the axles.  Low center of gravity, Alex...

Argue with yourself now Alex!  Im done with you. 

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38 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

The weight matters, the Model S Plaid has over double the horsepower of a Corvette, does a 9.2 second quarter mile compared to the Corvette's 11.2 and the Corvette would beat it on any track in the world that has more than 1 corner and 1 braking zone.  So if you make horsepower equal, say a Model 3 Performance vs a Corvette, I don't care what suspension parts they put on a Model 3, it isn't beating a Corvette on a track.  

And if Hyundai is going to make the N 74 or Ioniq 6 N handle like a sports car, how expensive is the suspension and brakes going to be to make that happen?  And how many buyers are out there for a $75,000 Hyundai performance sedan?  I don't see many Sonata N's out there and those are like $34,000 and they are killing the Sonata after this generation is word on the street.

And thank you all for the birthday wishes. 

So which is it? Model 3 or Model S Plaid? 
 

And who, other than you, would EVER compare a four door ANYTHING to a mid-engine coupe? Your argument is literally all over the place.

Edited by surreal1272
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