oldshurst442

Jurgen Schrempp was Chairman and CEO from 1995-2005, sort of the dark days of Mercedes. He had an engineering background too, but he wasn't a very good CEO. Dr. Z is a really good CEO. Chrysler was pretty much beyond saving, and they did give Chrysler the Crossfire and the LX platform, and the Grand Cherokee is still based on a derived ML-class platform. Notice Chryslers only decent cars are derived from mid 2000s Mercedes. Perhaps the problem with that merger is Chrysler was still developing their own engines, transmissions and cars, the Crossfire was the only Chrysler with a Mercedes engine/transmission and chassis. IT was a failed merger, but if Chrysler didn't have Mercedes or Fiat platforms, they wouldn't have anything to sell except Ram trucks and a minivan. Except Chrysler was very profitable at that point in time just before the merger. Except that "cab forward" design language was the most unique and sexy design language at that point in time. Except that Chrysler was spending a ton of money on R&D at that point in time before the merger and many effed up projects came to life. Viper being one of them. The Prowler is the other. The Prowler had NO Mercedes Benz input....THAT was ALL Chryco. Except that RWD was on the table BEFORE the merger and THIS was the Charger that was supposed to be with Chryco's engineering efforts... But because M-B generously 'gave' Chryco their old platform, Chryco had to improvise... And Chryco engineers probably did a better engineering job on that platform than what M-B did... The Crossfire was definitely proof of how M-B viewed Chryco...they viewed Chryco as a second class company... It was OK for M-B to rake in the billions that the Grand Cherokee and Wrangler raked in though...

I get that...sold at a price. They had Chevrolet, Pontiac and Saturn to fill that price niche. Oldsmobile tried very hard to keep an image of its former self. Engineering a car to a price point is what killed Oldsmobile then. What GM did, was screw Oldsmobile. Saturn had the L Series Sedan, from Europe. Pontiac the Grand Am and Oldsmobile the Alero all in the same price range. Alero would have benefited if they did go more premium. Offer the Shortstar...and give the Acura EL a run for its money...kinda like how the Verano is doing to the ILX today. It took GM 15 years to finally get this right....better late than never, I guess. It only cost them Pontiac and Oldsmobile...Saturn. Bankruptcy. If they had the cojones to make the Alero premium, what the Alero TRULY deserved, maybe 'tis Acura that would not have survived... Think about it...its not as if the last 15 years have been kind to Acura....other than its SUVs... The TL in the early 2000s was a bust! It took the 2005 model to gain success again. Then the super beak TL hit the streets. The TLX aint all that. The TSX either, that is why it is no longer. The ILX is a bust too. Think about it....the Alero, would have beat the European Accord/Acura TLX by 1 whole generation...4 years to be exact. Yeah...I think Ill stand by my words. Oldsmobile died a slow and painful death.

Yet...in 1999, Oldsmobile decided to go with a pushrod 3.4 liter V6. When its brother Intrigue ditched the other, yet proven pushrod 3.8 liter V6 and went with a very modern Shortstar V6, one that they designed...even for Cadillac. Northstar V8. Maybe Oldsmobile should have went with that Shortstar 3.5 in the Alero and go in another direction rather than just follow in Pontiac's footsteps... Sure, the Aurora had an on par interior with Cadillacs, but by that time, Oldsmobile no longer sold the way they did in the 1980s... Why I said they died a slow death....because after the rockin' 1980s, in between having the best General Motors products in the mid to late 1990s and into the 2000s where they were lay to sleep, the early 1990s is where Oldsmobile languished, where GM favoured production money and R&D money to such endeavors as Saturn and SAAB. GEO and Subaru. The one good product to come out of the early to mid 1990s Oldsmobile was indeed the first gen Aurora. However, crap such as the Achieva, 2nd generation Silhouette, should have NEVER been authorized for Oldsmobile. The Grand Am for that generation was good enough for Pontiac. Not for Oldsmobile, or Buick for that matter. The Achieva should have been what the Alero was....the Alero came a decade too late. Oldsmobile in the early 1990s still had badge engineered Delta 88s...that were re-worked twice...changed name to Eighty-Eight and took a face lift a second time to coincide with a new fresh start to have a face like an Aurora... Oldsmobile also had that W-Body Cutlass Supreme. Fantastic car, for a late 1980s Oldsmobile generation...but looooong in the tooth by the mid 1990s. Due to the fact that the Japanese competition in Lexus and Acura and Infiniti took no prisoners. Oldsmobile also had the Cutlass Cierra. Even Chevrolet ditched the Celebrity and went with a better vehicle. A loooooong in the tooth W-body Lumina....but still. Pontiac ditched the 6000 in favor for the very same looooong in the toooth W-Body Grand Prix. Yeah, I know....Cierras still sold like hot cakes...however, when Oldsmobile decided to tackle the imports and the Aurora was the one to lead the charge, crap like this should have NEVER been acceptable for Oldsmobile. Also...finally, when the Cierra was retired, a badge engineered Malibu replaced it...and badge engineered Malibu is being kind. It really was a Malibu... Only to have Oldsmobile cancel the Malibu in favor of the Alero anyway....which did not make too much sense as both the Malibu, Grand Am and Alero were from the same platform...albeit the Grand Am and Alero were revised and improved...and the Alero was made to be in the same market as the Cierra to begin with... The Alero, even with the 3.4 liter engine, still outsold the Cierra...because it was clear as daylight which car was superior.... GM/Olds just went with the Cierra because they probably felt GM sheeple would just flock to it...just because Cierra was its name...yet...on an Alero...OLDSMOBILE was kept on the hush hush becasuse Oldsmobile was said to head in another direction, and wanted to show that Alero REALLY was not your father's Oldsmobile... Weird, huh? In one corner, you are saying to your customers, forget the better Alero, go for the Cierra because THIS is what you are used to getting with Oldsmobille and in the other corner, you are telling your customers...No really, this Oldsmobile is NOT what your father drove....yes we know, we told you that fib before, but its true this time...look....no Oldsmobile badges...anywhere on the car....we even changed the logo for you... The Silhouette was still crap in the late 1990s... The other good thing about Oldsmobile....was that the Bravada was probably the best version of that SUV at that point in time before SAAB and Buick got Old's version. Like I said...the Intrigue, the Alero...which could have been THAT much more and the Aurora should have been the ONLY models...instead, when walking into an Oldsmobile showroom,in the late 1990s... people were confused...new generation Oldsmobile was there...however, old and bad and distasteful General Motors cheapened Oldsmobile was also present. And THAT is why I still stand by of what I said that Oldsmobile died a slow and painful death. Lansing Michigan employees knew what Oldsmobile was capable of....it must have been very painful for them to see billions of R&D money go to SAAB, Saturn, Fuji Heavy, GEO, and FIAT only to get crumbs, only to dangle good products knowing that if they have those billions, those good products would have been great, and MORE than enough to stick it to the Japanese and the Germans...staying true to what GM said Oldsmobile's mission was, to offer Americans real competition to the imports. Ill leave out Saturn as Saturn employees probably felt the same way Oldsmobile employees felt... with the same promises, an answer to import competition.

Happy New Year to you to, Wings... Hopefully after decades of the same 'ol same 'ol routine of yours on the internet of being less than truthful of your intentions....you will change your ways... Like I said, I see right through you! Im like the oracle of Delphi. PS: Im not the one who followed a handful of MT posters in this website just to continue the less than truthful intentions, Wings. Id look in the mirror before Id start calling someone else twisted... The Greek part. Well, the part of Greece my mom comes from, yeah, they are a tad twisted, so no harm in you saying that, its the truth... However, If I was you, Id seriously take a reflection of what it is you do for the past 2 decades in internet forums and Id change it...

I forgot...I have access to cute little emoticons. So Ill just start using them, like I did when I first joined up here.

Whatever Wings. I see right through you. But...Im not gonna be Charles Bronson anymore... Just so you know, you dont fool me!

1. If he feels it aint safe for his offspring....he could sell said GM product. 2. Id he decides to keep said GM car...its because he feels it safe...therefore there is no WOW at the end of his "comment" 3. ..... 4. He finally took it in during holiday season? How convenient it is for him... 5. .... . MAybe its a nice engineering fix....but there is no WOW at the end of that!

Yup, Suave... I could live with what you said...no need to be that sporty...but stylish is a MUST!

Sorry man, misread. But even Fiat is in better shape than Lancia. Sergio's spinoff of Ferrari is their last, best chance to get development cash for their European ops. They need this platform, and they need to give it to Dodge and Chrysler as well as their European brands. If they show any preference to Europe at all, they're screwed. No probs, man. And yeah...THAT is what Im afraid of. The temptation that Daimler had over Chryco...in that those Euro retards use Jeep for the cash cowness to primp up Euro ops. The more years pass on this latest Chryco merger....the more it looks like another "merger of equals". PS. I agree with you. Lancia died a slow death. A slow painful death eerily similar in how Oldsmobile died. I just have a vision in my head as to how Lancia could be revived. And that would be to have Dodge and SRT and Lancia and Abarth be part of the performance arm of FCA since FCA no longer has Ferrari. Alfa engineers could work with SRT and Abarth as Alfa engineers no onger have Ferrari.

What the Regal needs to be...is what the original VW CC was....(VW just let the CC rot on the vine) A discount Mercedes Benz CLS. Or a discount BMW 6 Series Gran Coupe 4 door coupe. If possible, forget the regular CLS and 6 Series, and make the Regal a discount CLS AMG or M6 Gran Coupe... Let the Verano, Cascada and Encore handle the low end premium stuff. Make the Regal into a real sport sedan. No need for RWD. Make it into an AWD real premium luxury car. OK...a discount Audi S7.

Well I think Alfa has a great chance in Europe actually, perhaps China as well. Anything expensive and well-made should do well in China. Marketing. Here you need some nice marketing folks to get the product out there. The Alfa engines are designed by the same people who make Ferrari engines... That is worth a lot of intangible cred. Deployed effectively, and with plenty of SUV juice, it can work. But it requires very high excellence of execution. If Sergio went real cray cray, imagine SRT having access to atleast some of the same engines or similar engine tech as Alfa's hand me downs from Ferrari. That would be amazing, not that SRT is lacking in V8s or crazyness to begin with. That is exactly my reasoning....also...Fiat in Europe is econo and mainstream...but Alfa was/is econo and mainstream too, no need for both, but because Alfa used to do luxury and race cars and Alfa was actually the FIRST to be sport sedan, Alfa could EASILY copy BMW's business model....because Alfa IS Italy's BMW, with a richer racing heritage and much much sexier cars.

I said...save Lancia instead of...FIAT. In all honesty....Lancia, Fiat AND Alfa all have at least one foot in their perspective graves. And THAT has got me worried about Chryco's over all health too. Maybe not Jeep and ahem...RAM, but Chrysler and Dodge.

Normally, I should feel the same you do about Alfa, that their time has come and gone and its time for Alfa to join the rest of the dead automobiles in the sky. But...I am still seduced by the notion that Alfa is still a sexy brand, making cars that have sexy lines to continue to seduce us all, especially in 2015 when most car manufactures produce very bland and very ugly cars. Alas, this notion of mine is definitely a dreamer's dream, I cant help but be an optimist with and for Alfa. I do agree that Sergio should STOP raping Chryco... With me....if one FCA brand should kick the bucket, 'tis Fiat... Alfa should be like BMW.... Econo and lux in Europe Lux in North America. and lower trimmed Euro Alfas be sold in North America as entry level lux... There is no need for Fiat as econobox and mainstream as Alfa could fill those shoes better than Fiat could... I would try to save Lancia instead and pair them up with Dodge and have Abarth and SRT work together as both Dodge and Lancia could be the affordable performance brand...while Alfa is...like BMW...luxury.

At CCAP and Surreal... I edited my post you both quoted me on... Please re-read it because I dont want you guys to think I took anything you guys said was offensive to me. And yup Surreal....the old guard keeps repeating the same mistakes over and over again...THAT is why I HATE it when EL K mentions it for Tesla!

No....it was NOT mentioned to him... He has a memory like a sponge. He is very attentive... Maybe it is NOT in the manual...maybe he read it...and he did not come across anything on that situation... I did not question him on that, because quite frankly, Tesla prides itself on its customer service and encourages you to use their free 1-800 number to ask their technicians ANYTHING!!! ANYTIME!!!! Plus....Tesla has a on-line forum on their website where Tesla owners compare and contrast their experiences... All this to tell you that Tesla wants to be known as a human company where everybody is encouraged to communicate with each other...on a PERSONAL BASIS...IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN MENTIONED WHEN HE TOOK DELIVERY OF THE CAR...especially when the explanations of how Tesla's regen braking works.... Again, Im not the one to blame this on Tesla and make it seem like my partner is faultless, he is a big boy and he knows what he could have done to prevent this situation regardless of the regen braking snafu... If you read what Drew said about Cadillac and how GM has software for a similar braking situation, Tesla whose Model S is ALL ABOUT software should have thought of this angle...ESPECIALLY when its a COMMON problem... In this case...El Kabong may have hit the nail on the head....rookies building cars....and you dont know how much I hate that line when El K uses it on Tesla... No offense taken Surreal....Its just that it aint as cut and dry as you think it is with owner's manuals.... Like you and I said...the Model S is NOT unlike any other car...and the Tesla buying experience is NOT like regualr car dealerships...especially when Tesla prides itself as a more personal buying experience... And yes CCAP....we are a different breed... I was SHOCKED when he bought a Model S...I thought he was going for a Volt... No offense taken...it is reality... It is second nature for us to overcome these kinds of situations because we read about them in car enthusiast areas....people like my partner only learn about it when they come across it, like a VIRGIN.....we know how to react because we are INFORMED BEFORE it happens to us!!!

Well guys...I dont know what to tell you. Im not the one that bought the car. I wasnt the one to deal with the technicians and the sales staff, nor do I have the owner's manual. (shout out to Surreal) Im not the one to have driven the car in the snow storm we had...a very nice 39.2 cm of snow....15.4 inches...anyway... Point being is that my partner is not a car enthusiast and I am. I know of the potential hazards of moisture on the brake calipers and to at least pump the brakes before hand to get friction going on to dry the brakes as soon as possible... I think this was the situation CCAP Plus there was a snow storm right....so there must have been snow and ice collected on the calipers and the discs...so by the time the computer reacted to stop regen braking and switch to conventional braking and by the time the friction gotthe snow and ice off, 4 seconds or so elapsed....and 4 seconds in ANY situation is a long time when you need to stop now...dont forget....although in the snow storm we had, the conditions were not that slippery, you are still braking in snow... I believe there are 3 levels of regen braking. Normal, Low and Off to which the user chooses what settings he prefers. But yeah...they should make a software program where the car detects this and switches automatically.... Regardless if its in the manual....who reads those anyway? I do...most dont...like CCAP said...we live in Canada...Tesla is supposed to be UNLIKE regualr dealerships in where the sales staff KNOWS the product...they should have VERBALLY mentioned it!!! But yes Surreal, it is a car unlike no other, some blame...MOST blame goes on him for maybe not reading the manual properly, and becoming MORE familiar with the car he bought. I was NEVER the one to blame a manufacturer or a product for incompetence...but...in this case...when the technician ACKNOWLEDGES similar problems across snowy areas, a reminder of what may happen is a welcoming advice. Its not as if he bought the car in the summer, he took delivery of it in December....winter time... This does NOT take away from me loving the car....its just strengthening my position in thinking that NO COMPANY truly gives a rat's ass about the customer....it will ALWAYS be the bottom line BEFORE the customer. Long gone are the days where the reverse was true... And thanx for your concerns. Yeah...we are both laughing at the situation now....Im disappointed in this little mis-communication, he even less...but he did have a scare.

My partner had a near death experience with his Tesla yesterday. Tesla Model S' are programmed to use engine breaking to reduce speed. This helps gain a few extra miles through regenerative braking that use that energy while slowing down and stopping to recharge the battery to gain a few miles... Well, in snow and ice...you need to reduce speed...fast...so...while the Model S does a fine job getting the speed down and actually stop the car and use little to no conventional brakes to come to a halt in dry weather...in snow...the conventional brakes dont kick in fast enough because of all that snow collected on the calipers because regenerative braking does not allow to melt or get the snow off, so, the conventional brakes dont come on immediately. He told me it took a good 4 seconds before they came on... 4 seconds is a helluva long time. He ditched the car in a snow bank at one corner so he could avoid smashing into the guy in front of him. No damage done....but a few heart attacks were had. He called up Tesla and asked them...WTF???!!! The technician told him that he could turn off regenerative braking for the winter so the car could use the regular brakes. The technician also told him that most people opt for that option in snowy areas. As much as I like Tesla....this to me is a huge mistake and very disappointing to not tell him what happens in the winter with regenerative braking! Maybe the technicians and sales staff that sold him the car....maybe they should have warned him about that...BEFORE he had a chance to kill himself!

@ Drew. It is true. Johan was not the one to do alphanumerics at Cadillac. Neither at Infiniti. I like what Jo0han did at Audi. At Infiniti his hands were tied. He could not do anything without the top top dogs at Nissan-Infinti-Renault having a final say...and they denied him most of what he wanted to do. At cadillac, he has carte blanche....it will be awhile before we see what influence he has had though. I think one move he made that has ALREADY impacted the mentality at Cadillac for the POSITIVE was to head out in NYC. PS I made a tine boo-boo. I meant to write 454...not 455. 454 was Chevy. I tend to do that often.

@Casa who responded to my post, but also in compliment to Suave`s post about copying others to which Casa also responded to...because all same idea... I know Casa...about why the alphanumerics... Before you explained it, I also did. Not that you mentioning it angered me or bothered me...I just what to point it out that I truly understand it. So we both could focus on to which why you like alphanumerics and I dont...so we both dont repeat ourselves... Good... Cconcerning Suave`s post aboput Johan saying that Cadillac should LEAD not follow...I agree with Suave in that Cadillac and EVERYBODY else that went down the road alphanumerics really is just following an OLD standard...a EUROPEAN standard... The alphanumeric naming scheme on a European car was logical in that it told you what modle it is...Model T...but also told you the displacement of the engine. Chevy A-Body inline 6 equals A-250 Chevy A-Body 455 equals A-455...we could add the SS if we wanted to as in A-455SS Chevy B-Body 327 equals B-327 Chevy B-Body 427 equal B-427 SS and so forth... However...in America...we stopped doing that...Ford no longer produced a Model T. Ford started doing Fairlanes Chevy did Bel Airs and Impalas and Chevelle Malibus and then Chevelles AND Malibus Olds did Cutlass...and then they did 442s...OK...there are exceptions to the rule... BUT... I do agree with NOT bringing in OLD names like a Fleetwood....Brougham...Seville...Deville...Coupe DeVille...THAT should stay in the past...perhaps even Eldorado... But a name like Ciel for a flagship land yacht convertible seems like a marriage made in heaven rather than CT7 or CT8... El Miraj could EASILY take the place of Eldorado.... Cadillac is NOT...was NEVER...a car maker filled with LOGIC and EFFICIENCY....it was ALWAYS about EXCESS and EMOTIONS V16s...Eldorados...CHROME...stainless steel roofs...bling bling SUVs...mile high fins....stacked headlights...both modern like in a 1st gen and 2nd gen CTS and in late 1960s Devilles... CT4 and then CT6 and a model above that for CT7 and CT8 is waaaaaaay too logical for the brand... Cadillac NEEDS attitude... Cadillac NEEDS emotion... Numbers dont bring emotion....numbers are science...logic... El Miraj...Ciel...sell dreams... Cadillac ALAWYS sold you a dream... Dare Greatly in NYC sells you a dream...that ELR Americans are the Best commercial...sold you THAT attitude!

That was a great night! I was working that night. A friend of mine was actually at that concert. He left when all that crap happened to join me where I worked and we went to a strip joint after my shift ended.

How so. There is still 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9, and even higher.. Even if they use just the even numbers for sedans... U still have 5 sedans... Which is 2 more they currently do... If they need more.. They could whore out the odd (opposite) numbers like BMW with the Grand Coupes Cool...I see that what you are suggesting to me is that numbers on a number line are infinite. CT1000, CT2000 Maybe Cadillac could copy the Terminator way... T-100 T1000 and so forth... Casa, I understand the thought process of alphanumerics... But going up and down the number line is still boxing yourself up. Numbers are definitely infinite, and Cadillac really does not need an infinite amount of models either. I get that. But stupidity in alphanumerics is also infinite. And Cadillac cannot afford infinite amounts of stupidity. Im NOT sold on alphanumerics. The Germans had a decent logic to it, but even them they screwed it up... a 318 Bimmer had a 1.8 liter engine... a 325 Bimmer had a 2.5 liter engine... Yeah, I know...even efficient German CEOs complicated their life when they started over thinking things... "Like OMG!!!....we once had a 325 BMW 2.5 liter Inline 6...now we have a 2.3 liter 4 cylinder...we cant possibly call that a 323...becasue its too close to the 325 we did a decade ago and people will get confused that this is not an inline 6 but a 4 cylinder so we will just use random numbers higher up on the number line that has nothing to do with engine displacement....it dont matter that this how how we did it for the last 100 years....all of Europe actually...we will re-invent the wheel instead in confusing the peeps less..." The brand is more of value than the model name is what these alphanumerics are suppose to do... That would be on paper.... In real life...well, Like Drew said...Cadillac pays big bucks to Johan and Ellinghaus. I actually like what they are doing, even with the naming scheme....I still dont like alphanumerics though!

With Axl, Slash, Duff, etc? Hell hath frozen over... Id like to think of it this way: that their Civil War has ended and are now returning Back to the Jungle. They learned that the grass is not greener on the other side...but in Paradise City, a city they should have never left in the first place, the grass is as green as it gets. But they are a lot older now...I wonder if the girls are still pretty. In the end, all what they really needed was a little Patience. I wonder if Bob Guccione, Jr. had something to do with this...maybe it was Mr Brownstone... I know one thing...both Axel and Slash were waaaaaaay outta line. With Axel's bitch slap rappin' and Slash's cocaine tongue, they got nuthin done! They should have lived...but they decided to let die...Its a shame....because they hit the world stage like a Locomotive...but I doubt them being alone all this time in the cold November Rain will have them back Knock Knock Knockin' on Heaven's door..hey hey hey yeah! That Rocket Queen is Yesterday's Garden of Eden. I never did Cry the night they broke up, because I never did like them as a group. I was never a Sweet Child o' Theirs. Strange though, I have bought several of their tapes and CONTINUE to listen to their songs over and over and over again. I like their music. Just not them as a group. Appetite for Destruction Lies Use Your Illusions I&II Yes...even the Spaghetti Incident...

Yeah, well. I dont do trucks. Nor SUVs all that much, and the criteria calls for both...meh. The ONLY SUV I WANT is a Wrangler....lifted. Or a WW2/Korean war vet original. US Army issue. So...a Winnebago called out to me in this dream garage thread.

Truck: Winnebago Grand Tour Ellipse. Sedan: Tesla Model S P90 Coupe: Dodge Challenger Hellcat SUV: Jeep Wrangler Unlimited Lifted Toy: Corvette Z06 Or a Mustang P-51D replica

A CT0? True about what you said about Cadillac does not have to limit itself to only 2 cars below the CT6...CT4 and CT2, so a CT0 could very well be a viable option...but CT0 as a name? If CT0 ever becomes a name for a Cadillac, I think Cadillac pretty much limited themselves to exactly that many sales of a CT0.....which is ZERO... I get the reasons why of the alphanumeric names...I know the reasons...and more importantly, I understand why marketing "geniuses" are pushing for alphanumeric names... Problem is...with a naming scheme like CT6/CT8...CT4...CT3...CT2...CT1 and finally CT0...for a small bite sized sedan....is pretty much dead on arrival...and no room for product growth...Im mean...CT4...CT2....and smaller than that is a CT0....ZERO....ZERO... That is problem #2... Problem #1: Marketing "geniuses" saw how the German car companies have succeeded with the alphanumeric names...COOL! Now tey want to emulate that... a. Problem is that they forgot that those alphanumeric names really did not succeed when AMERICAN LUXURY was at its HIGH!!! b. The German culture is a culture that is based on "efficiency"...so it works for the German car. American culture is a culture that is based on emotions...attitudes and emotions... Casa..a poster that is very well informed and very pro American Cars mainly GM has said something in the past that has stuck with me..it resonted with me...since Im Greek...he said that being an American is an attitude...and he is right...like I said...Im Greek...the original "attitude" culture. After the war....WW2...there is a reason why the Standard of the World...a superlative with an attitude in itself...left behind the alphanumerics...or at the very least....downsized from them...and went for names....names with attitude I might add...ELDORADO... There is a reason why ESCALADE...in 2015...the name and the product itself...is so successful... A-T-T-I-T-U-D-E I just felt I had to rant about that... CT0 made me puke in my mouth...at the thought that Cadillac boxed themselves in with that dumb alphanumeric crap...