Stew

ROFL, let's see. 6.4 Hemi, nearly 500 HP NA, 5.7 Hemi, nearly 400 HP NA and dynos show the same for the Challengers despite the official ratings, 3.6 pentastar super smooth, powerful, and all are reliable. 2.4 world engine vs GM's newer 3.5 in the Malibu? Power and the general feel is the same and the World engines are proven in reliablility too. World class 7 speed ZF Auto shared with high end makers? CHECK and having it since 2011 when 2014 was GM's first use of an 8 speed. Go hump GM in the GM threads please and get off your high horse, don't ou have to defend in some later recall about ignitions that, unlike the others, comes straigh from GM and NOT suppliers..... PS; Wings is running circles around ou on this forum......

LFX is superior.. and U need to stop quoting the 305HP number as it is a FWD only application that U are comparing to Pentastars that come close with RWD vehicles. The comparison U should be making is the RWD GM vehicles to the RWD FCAs 323HP Camaro vs 305 HP Challenger, the GM engine with a 6% advantage. . before the new one arrives giving it a solid 10% advantage with Start/Stop.. and AFM I am not reading all your GM humping, but that peak HP number doesn't mean much when an auomatic Camaro coupe runs the same times as the heavier CHallenger, oops, and the Camaro gets worse FE, tell me again how the LFX is superior?

Your performance figures are a little off. The best the Challenger has ever done is high 14s and the Camaro V6 has always been faster with the exception of the much heavier convertible. 2010 Camaro V6 6-speed manual 0-60: 5.9 sec 1/4 mi: 14.5 @ 99 http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/2010-camaro-v6-vs-genesis-coupe-v6-comparison-tests 2012 CTS LFX V6 6-speed auto (4072 lbs) 0-60: 6.2 sec 1/4 mi: 14.7 @ 98 mph http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2012-cadillac-cts-36-sedan-test-review 2015 Challenger V6 8-speed auto (3946 lbs) 0-60: 6.2 sec 1/4 mi: 14.7 @ 97 http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2015-dodge-challenger-v-6-8-speed-test-review Slowest possible Camaro: 2012 Camaro V6 Vert 6-speed auto (4105 lbs) 0-60: 6.6 sec 1/4 mi: 14.9 @ 95 http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/convertibles/1109_2012_chevorlet_camaro_rs_45th_anniversary_convertible_first_test/ Thank you for proving my point. 14.7 IS mid 14s, if on the high side. Notice i also said AUTOMATIC V6 gen 5 Camaro, ou posted the coupe time for a manual, an auto is a dead hear with a Challenger which is????? An auto. For the weight difference alone a V6 Camaro SHOULD be quicker, but isn't...... I will admit I was a little off on the CTS time, but I do not think that is the same test I saw. In any case, the boss is right, both are great engines, both are equally good, thought the Pentastar is the MPG champ and the very times you posted show the true power is basically qual, be it the GMs are actuall over-rated or simply a result of powerbands.

I love both, but would have to go with the Evo, own money or otherwise.

Fair enough, but up to 305 without DI, without multiair is impressive. Also, no DI has it's advantages such as sheer smoothness. Every DI engined car i have been in idles like a diesel truck (includes LFX, pre LFX, and the eb 2.0). Less NVH to state it that way. I like the LFX more than it's pre refresh predesessor, BUT I don't see how it is a superior engine.......... at all. In fact since we went from sedans to the MUCH heavier and larger fullsize CHallenger vs the Camaro, I have doubts that the LFX makes as much power as they state in that application. IE, a CHallenger V6 is a mid 14 seconds car, so is an LFX gen 5 Camaro auto. A last gen CTS with the LFX took nearly 7 seconds to hit 60........ IMHO, it is about even powerwise with the curent pentastar and still posts worse MPG in every single configuration discussed. So that is my point, Casa stated the LFX superior, facts and figures prove otherwise.

And don't think I am postin this only because it is FCA, i have posted such on other sites considering other actions against oher manufacturers. I the MHTSA actually gave a damn about the consumer they would be investigatin suppliers since most every recall can be tracked down to a supplier issue.

It really makes ZERO sense. THe NTHSA is out of control and i can guarantee that Ford, GM, and even Toyota have issued at least that many recalls for that many vehicles if not more in the same time period. If i remember right the average rcall completion rate is around 50% for even 77% is outstanding considering you can't hold a gun to people's heads and make them bring in their vehicles for a recall. I am afraid the ole TSA is getting a little power crazy and who knows who will be next. It is bginning to feel like they won't stop until they have suckedat least $1 billion dollars from every manufacturer and who will it really hurt? US, the consumer......

the big question is, how big of a market is out there? I think there are buyers left, but the reason the midsize truck world died in the first place was because of lack of sales. I do think GM needs to up production BIG TIME, especially when the diesel comes out. I have driven a new Z71 and it was amazing and IMHO sets a new standard.

Thanks everyone! They were in the mountains of Eastern Kentucky.

Come now, I bet you have been told a million times, not to exaggerate Truth is, fewer cylinders will always use less fuel in a comparable engine output, except under heavy load, where they then use the same fuel. Most people drive light to moderate load, under spirited driving, let alone just cruising. that's the theory but it rarely pans out that way in the real world..........

And just wanted to add casa, yes Mopar is my favorite, but unlike you and Wings I give credit where due to other brands and don't just try to spread nagativity about brands that aren't my number 1 favorite.

I think everyone is watching GM still. There have been small Ram truck mules spotted, but they are still denying it. GM built such a fantastic midsizer they really raised the bar. i own 2 3rd gen Dakota regular cabs and find the size perfect for me.

Neat, but sad at the same times, I see a number I would love to have to restore.

Also, there isn't much weight difference between our "huge" Impala and a 200 so that is a total copout.......

I don't see how you get that. the 200 has considerably better HP WITHOUT DI. the Charger can be had with the same HP and STILL considerably better HP. Even the 2014 200 with the old 6 speed auto gets better MPG, so nice try, but no cigar...... Hell, even the old 5 speed in the Charger provides up to 305 HP and better MPG. And with all the GM ranting you do, ou are FAR worse than me, apparently you must be a GM engineer? I am just making actual valid points, you are the other hand, well, you are helping me out.......

And outside of the USA none of that stuff sells. Jeep is the only brand they could sell outside of the USA. Which makes it the only brand of value in the FCA portfolio. Sergio is trying to merge because he knows FCA can't survive as is. With longer and longer product cycles, too many brands, too many single market products, he knows the clock is ticking. No one is buying what he is selling though. There is not a problem with that. There are plenty of cars that are specific to the US, ie Accord and Passat. They are still profitable. A vehicle does NOT have to be global PERIOD. They moved over 20k 200s last month, nearly 20k LX cars, they have the stronger hold in the car part of the market. The Surango would never be considered for gthe global market because the design and size is strictly designed for the US market. I could go on. CPm you are correct, off topic and I understand where it looks bad. The issue is that if the reason was totally bad the core products would have been pushed forward MORE than just a few months. IMHO, they want to get the quality right and they have to conetrate on what brings in the most profit, Jeep and trucks (All the big 3s major money makers are SUVs and trucks BTW). You just can't say it is being delayed for bad reasons or has ANYTHING to do with wanting a merger because there is simply no evidence to support it. If I am not mistaken there delays compared with the first 5 year plan also and it worked out. Look at the sales, I would have pause on puttting new product out too quick myself. Get the most you can from existing products and platforms. In any case all of the big 3 extend platforms. W-body or panther anyone? 15 years of Fox bodies, and up until recently the average time for a truck as 10 years or better and Honda used a 6 year standard product cycle.

LFX WAS NOT a brand new engine, but a VERY MUCH needed update to the trouble prone DI 3.6. That family of engines started as non-DI back in the early 2000s so no, nowhere near a 3 year old architecture. The current 3.6, the LFX, came out in 2012 Model year. We're currently in 2015 Model year. 2015 - 2013 = 2 years old. It is a redesign of the LLT with new cylinder heads, an integrated exhaust manifold (meaning basically a completely redesigned block), new intake manifolds, fuel injectors, intake valves, and more. I really really like the Pentastar and I feel it is one of the best V6es on the market today... but lets keep it real about the GM 3.6 shall we?

This post just shows you have no knowledge about the company.............. at all............ What does FCA do better than the other guys? VW makes better small cars than Fiat. If you are looking for South American or European sales, the Up!, Polo, Golf, etc are a lot more competitive. VW's global weakness is on mid-size to large sedans in the USA and they don't have a pick up truck or minivan. Toyota has all the bases covered, Honda does cars and minivans better than FCA, GM and Ford do cars and trucks better than FCA. None of the big 5 car companies need FCA. Jeep is the one prize that any company could use, because people buy Jeep for the look, the brand image, the off road recognition, etc. It wouldn't matter if the Jeep had a Pentastar V6 or a Ford V6 or Toyota V6 under the hood. Jeep could fit in with almost any of the big carmakers and not be an overlap to their existing product lines. That is your OPINION. IMHO, Ram is the best fullsize, Durango EASILY the best 3 row SUV, CHallenger/Charger EASILY the best fullsize AND the Charger is the top selling car to law enforcement agencies. As a whole Nothing rivals Jeep, the 200 offers luxury and features other midsizers can touch for thousands less comparatively..... i can go on if ou wish.......

That oupe they used for the photos looks perfect in that color combo.

AWD+Hellcat=face distortion and permagrin..........

And the 09 5.7 Hemi WAS heavily updated for 09

Gm's 3.6 is currently much older than the pentastar. That was my point. YES GM is offering a new 3.6 after what, 15 years of improving on the old one? The 3.6 Pentastar is ONLY 5 years old and the great thing about it is that even without DI it is fully competitive power and FE wise with others that have DI. The 09 refresh on the 5.7 Hemi was pretty major and was a mojor update to power AND efficiency. 5.7 liters and up to 395 HP and 25 MPG is pretty good. And yes, you are correct the LS3 is pretty different than the LS1, but still it was way older than the 6.4 is now. As for all the new engines, look where basically all those turbo motors are going, Cadillac. There is a reason for that as they are in a different league than Chrysler, Dodge, or Chevy and it is VERY important to keep them fresh and even more important they aren't sharing too much with the "lesser" brands. Also, the 2.4 anyways is NOWHERE near as bad as it is made out to be. I had one for 126k miles, ZERO issues and got over 30MPG in a boxy AWD Patriot. Have also been in a number of newer cars and they are even better in them. Heck, My brother had a 15 Malibu 2.5 and a 14 200 rental 4 cylinder the next week and BOTH accelerated about the same and even the sound and feel were roughly the same. Compare such things basically back to back and it really makes you wonder where some of he supposed bad stuff comes from. Also, that 200 had 50k miles of rental abuse and ran and drove great. This post just shows you have no knowledge about the company.............. at all............

The 8 speed trans is outsourced too. ZF doesn't need to work on the 9-speed, Chrysler still needs to tune it properly. Platform-wise, their full size RWD cars are ancient and overweight, their high-volume compact car is floundering and overweight, their new midsize car is quite nice, but also overweight at a time when everyone else is in the process of shedding pounds. And the worst hurdle for Chrysler right now is that they DESPERATELY need some competitive 4-cylinder engines, which you mentioned. I thought they were in a better position financially because Jeep is basically printing money. I hope that the Fiat side of operations isn't becoming a leach. I have to disagree on a number of points. First, the 9 speed is having issues in basically every vehicle it is in, including the TLX and RR Evoque. Second, look at other actual fullsize platforms and you will see the weight is similar or even heavier compared to the LXs. They could improve this issue immensely anyways simply by going aluminum blocks on the Hemi. in any case sales are up, the cars, especially the Charger Hellcat and Scat Pack, are getting excellent reviews on not only power, but handling too. Remember, demand is so high for the Hellcat, which is a VERY profitable product, they had to stop taking orders. The 200 is selling like gangbusters, never thought I would see them selling over 20k units a month. Also under MT's real MPG the 200 beats nearly all comers including a lot of cars that "claim" superior FE. Weight is not an issue here since it is not a sportscar and still gets that FE and drives quite nice. I also don't think weight is a major issue for the dart, but rather I do agree they need a new family of 4 cylinders, the world engines despite updates , are nealy a decade old. New 4 cylinders are coming and no delay was mentioned for those, so about 1-1.5 years out. Also, the 8 speed, at least most iterations for FCA, are built at Chrysler plants under conract from ZF. It seems like the 9 speed was rushed to markets and I know the 8 spent quite a few years in developement and is wonderful in every application it is in. My brother's A5 wih the 2.0T matches up beautifull with it. The 9 speed seems half baked. Ram and Jeep are certainly the cash cows, but Chrysler and Dodge are also profitable. Fiat just isn't a good fit here and they have been hit hard by the financial crisis in Europe which sucks. If Sergio wants a partner, I think Mazda would be great. They could use skyactive and Mazda could use the Pentastar V6 with their own touches ie, my biggest fault with the 6 has been it's lack of a more lusty engine option. Heck, they are already going to be making a Miata based roadster. The problem is from an R&D perspective. Besides the Hellcat, what have they been doing? They released the 3.2L Pentastar in the Cherokee last year and haven't used it in anything else, so it's seeing incredibly limited production. They don't design the transmissions in house was my point about that, which isn't a problem in itself until you look at the lagging engine development. They are far behind the product momentum of the industry, and this latest announcement in combination with merger talks makes it look like Sergio is running blind. Their engine lineup isn't particularly that old. The 5.7 hemi was completely redone in 09, 6.4 was brand new in 11 along with the 3.6 pentastar. The 2.4 4 was just redone last year. New Hemis and updated Pentastars with DI are coming, but they are hardly old. GM's DI 3.6, Ford's 3.5 V6, and Nissans VQ have all been around far longer than any of these and GM's basic V8 architecture which appeared in 1996 in the 97 Vette was only replaced in 2013 on the 2014 Vette.

The irony is that current Maser sedan platform is actually based lossel on LX and the tt V6 loosely on the Pentastar. You are right, they need to let the updates on the Masers trickle down. In it's current form LX is a good platform. It handles well, the steering, amazingly, gets acolades, it rides great, and in reality weight is in line with most RWD cars it's size. The Hemi is the sticking point, every Hemi below the Hellcat (for now) should have an aluminum block PERIOD. hat would easily remove weight and improve weight distriburion in one fell swoop. I also don't want to see the Challenger get smaller because i is unique and not really a Camaro and Mustang competitor, it is MUCH more a grand tourer. Now, give us a smaller lighter platform and pu a new CUda or Demon on it. Here is where Alfa could be of use, sharing such a platform. IMHO, Alfa could be good, just no idea how in hell they fit it in an already crowded hierarchy.