balthazar

datsun cube

>>"the Jerry Titus '68 Firebird (actually a Camaro) Trans Am race car..has the Chevy 302. Maybe this car is part of the urban legend of the 'Canadian Firebirds'."<< Great link! Prolly the catalyst for all the Canadian/Pontiac/TransAm/302 confusion/rumors. Makes more sense that the relatively unknown internal engine designations I mentioned in my above post. No- Firebirds were NOT part of the Canadian Pontiac line, but the '65 Trade Pact eliminated tariffs between the U.S. & Canada, which would allow tariff-free importation of U.S. Firebirds... at least technically. Not sure if they were, but they would've all been Pontiac-engined.

The '69 Trans Am 'pony car' circuit displacement limit was 305 CI. Chevy: 302, Ford: 302, AMC: 304. Pontiac technically had access to the Chevy 302 via it's Canadian Pontiac marketing arm, but this combo was disallowed. Pontiac elected to build a completely unique 303 CI tunnel port engine for the series. Early testing returned only 430 HP, vs. the competition's circa 475. It was decided to use RA IV heads, which returned 480 HP... but by this time, the season was half over and the T/A debuted with it's 400 (the 303 also was not homolgated (produced in street cars). The 303 tunnel port heads were abandoned as insufficiently developed, and a rule change that upped displacement limits rendered the 303 program obsolete. In roughly 20 years of studying Pontiac, I still have things to learn, but I can say positively that I've never heard of a Canadian T/A built, regardless of engine used. I would have to believe the rumor is confusion between the 302 & 303. Also, the '70 RA IV was coded as 'LS1', which again has potential for confusion with the Chevy 'LT-1' designation (and later LS designations). ('71 455HO was the LS-5, '73 SD455 was the LS-2. Clearly there were delays & changes for this non-chronologically numbered system to be logged.) In this period, PMD was doing all it's own engineering, which is another strong reason for me to discount any factory Chevy-engined race Pontiacs.

>>"Can't compare a G3 with a '60s Parisienne or Laurentian, though..."<< Both look like Pontiacs, but neither are. That was as in-depth a point as I was making. Those big Canadian cars are interesting, yes (academically), but they're still only Pontiacs in name. Heart is the chassis & engines, and they don't have them. A bunch of the sheetmetal also doesn't interchange due to wheelbase differences. A pale shadow of 'real' Pontiacs. I love '60s Pontiacs but would never buy a Canadian version in a million years. Wallowy, narrow track and a 283 underhood instead of a 389. No thanks.

PCS- you have the PHS documentation, I assume? Still, it's tempting to add a few options you might miss otherwise... tho there's nothing major that comes to mind for a '69 Tempest other than the hubcaps/rims. No to Rallye IIs then, too, eh? My '64 GP came with full wheel covers, but I have a set of 8-lugs that I'd certainly put on it if I ever get around to it's restoration. They are just too beautiful not to. Have Tri-P, too.

You could get a 'SD-396' Beaumont, Chevy 396 V8 (I believe the 'SD" was a take-off of the U.S.- 'Super Duty' moniker)... no doubt those hi-po Beaus would scoot. I never cared for the Canadian versions, since they just look like 'weird Pontiacs' to my PMD-worn eye. Much more generic, almost more like Buicks than Pontiacs.... I did read that the Beau got the Tempest dash starting in '64, but I kno some of the big cars used Chevy dashes, and obviously the Acadian used a Chevy dash since there was no 'Pontiac Chevy II'...

If a Pontiac was only about looking like a Pontiac, wouldn't there be all sorts of love for the G3 ? Pontiacs, real Pontiacs that enthusiasts embrace and threads are written to celebrate the heritage of, do NOT include Chevy chassis'd, suspension'd & powertrain'd Canadian cheap imitations. >>"One thing I've wondered about regarding Canadian Pontiacs--there were the midsize (Beaumont) and compact (Acadian) models--but those were considered separate brands, not Pontiacs, apparently, or so I've read. So there were no Pontiac-engined midsize models sold in Canada in the '60s-70s (i.e. no GTOs?)."<< Nope- no Canadian GTOs, no Pontiac-engined Canadian Pontiacs up thru '70 at least. You are right RE the Acadian & Beaumont; technically separate brands, but they were styled in the Pontiac vein & were sold in Pontiac dealerships as 'replacement' models (Beaumont = Tempest, Acadian was a Chevy II).

Fair enough, but the vast majority of enthusiasts consider Canadian Pontiacs to be as much a Pontiac as a Korean Pontiac. :wink:

Cubitar :: that '68 is a Canadian Pontiac, AKA a Chevy in Pontiac's clothing. No U.S. (Pontiac-engined) 2+2s for '68; it was a '64-67 run here. '64 was a trim/equipment package- nothing mandated powertrain-wise, but '65-67 got the bigger 421/428 motors standard.

Right, CaM. Like I said- I see it CONSTANTLY in vintage car ads. Puzzling how the same mistake is repeated so often.

I really pay no attention to fashion or clothing brands, so no help here. As long as young, pretty, thin girls continue to wear tight belly shirts; thumbs up.

That's a good shot of the 2+2-exclusive fenders... but I dislike converts, so I avoid pics of them. Chopping off that fastback roofline takes too much away, IMO. As for the '69 Tempest Custom-S, the 1-year 'S' addition to the nameplate is all there is 'special' to that model, it's the exact same model line in '68, just called the Tempest Custom. In '70, it gets a cache' boost to the LeMans line, but all 3 lines are series 235. Same cars within the PMD heirarchy. Anyone else ever bothered at the phrase 'going for a full restore', or is it just me ?? It's grammatically incorrect - should be "full restoration", no ? God, tho, I see it all the time... Congrats, PCS, that you are able to swing a hired restoration. TON of work when you do it yourself. Last year offered was '68, but Rallye I rims would really dress your '69 up, PCS. On a '66 : Going to institute any changes/upgrades during the restoration ?

>>"Eh, its just a bunch of grumpy old men."<< Are you looking to date, or looking at cars? Besides, plenty of old men driving prius's- just take a look around. -- -- -- -- -- Average parking space has to swallow an 80" wide vehicle- must be 90" min. 4 parking spaces would = around 360" in the shortest span. Mini = 142" overall length. >>"And even the Cooper can take up 4 parking spots if I do it right. "<< Please; take a pic... along with perpetual motion machines, 'crypto-physics-defiance' is always an amusing pastime.

This is the factory pic- not the greatest. Badging & fender vents (almost invisible in this angle) distinguish the 2+2 visually : There are just NOT that many pics of F/S '67s on the 'net. Ultimate GTO is a great site, but no; there's nothing remotely close for F/S PMDs. There really should be, since the GTO was 'de-engineered' from the big cars anyway. 'Batwing' '61 Cat :

Even w/ all 4 doors open, the prius is barely large enough to take up 2. Besides, denying parking for vintage iron only further de-classes that event.

OK (because you KNOW it's been done) :: Feature :: here

>>"New Cars that make you say WTF?"<< That would be MOST of them.

Will Darnell, Christine : "You can't polish a turd."

>>"...14 BETTER exmples of ElCaminos. 1961 1962 1963..."<< Hmmmmm.... :wink:

>>"VW Routan-who thought VW buyers would want a rebadged Chryco minivan? Apparently VW has an 18 month + supply of them."<< Unless things have improved greatly, it was a 27-month supply based on current sales about 1 month ago.

In some sort of rough order :: 63 GP 421SD (3 built) 63 'Swiss Cheese' Catalina 421SD 61 Catalina 389SD 'batwing' 2-dr sedan 62 Catalina 421SD hardtop 64 GP 421 62 GP 'street' 421 64 Catalina 2-dr sedan 421 64 Bonne coupe 64 Cat Safari 61 Ventura SD hardtop 65 Bonne 2-dr hardtop 66 GP 67 Cat 2+2 428 68 GP 69 GP 65 GTO 66 GTO 68 GTO I love the looks of the 1st gen Firebirds, but I don't think I'd ever be happy owning one; knowing the full-sizers so well. Same reason why the GTOs rank at the bottom of my list.

I just read somewhere that the rx-8 is costing mazda an average of $11,000 / car in warranty costs !!!

Yeah- the render is tweaking it a bit (and the wheels are too large), but there's still nothing "ugly" about a fluid design like that, esp with a 'hardtop', fluted 'fastback' roofline like that. I gots yer ugly right here :

When the Tigers won.... I repeat WON the World Series in '84 in D, the fans flipped over cars and lit them on fire. Fun town.

Right BigP; not sure everyone was aware of the Motorama Nomad. I like it, but have always been puzzled at the focus on that model, as opposed to the 'Corvette Corvair' fastback. BTW- the yellow hardtop in the forground was recently 'found' and is undergoing restoration....