balthazar

"improves acceleration & performance" Yes, if the ratios are reshuffled. In the case of the Allison 5-spd & 6-spd; 6th gear was an added-on double overdrive. Gear 1-5 ratios are identical. No doubt ratios are reshuffled between 4-spds & 6-spds.... just saying...

>>"I'm just not able to like it. It looks better in black IMHO."<< Agreed... to the point I find it quite hideous up front. The black masks this in the pic, but it is what it is (IMO).

'52-53 "7X" race engine. Overbored 308 CI. Twin-H dual carbs, est 220 HP.

Interesting how this rag says the hyuindai is LACKING in refinement, when the other praised it. Here, it's the Camaro that's "impressively refined" (page 4). Can we please get a consensus that these rankings are the meaningless personal opinions of a few old guys & their particular 'filters' ?? And no- accepting that does NOT rule out editorial or personal biases, sorry DF.

Black steel roof car w/ red interior, low miles..... love it. Have literally dreamt about this car, but... not in the market for anything right now.

Except for the DeSoto, the others were but a sampling from a -yes indeed- Wednesday night local car show. There were about 50 vehicles there- these were a few that caught my eye. I also saw a '65 Corvette w/ side pipes rumbling around out on the roads.

'56 DeSoto Firedone 4-dr sedan, pink over charcoal. '59 Bel Air 2-dr sedan '59 Lincoln Mark IV convertible. '60 Olds Super 88 2-dr hardtop. Pair of '62 GPs. '63 Buick LeSabre convertible. Pair of '62-64 Studebaker GT Hawks. '71 GTO Judge hardtop (1 of 357) a Bricklin

>>"Really after even about 68 or 70 the big cars started to suffer IMHO."<< Agreed. Case in point: Pontiac 1967 ~ Full-size : 386,585 A-/F-Body : 379,118 1968 ~ Full-size : 403,284 A-/F-Body : 437,999 As a Pontiac guy, '67 is the last aspirational F/S Pontiac for me (I DO like the '68 GP tho).

True- GM 'de-engineered' the A-bodies from the big cars... but once their sales numbered swelled to pass the F/S (and the 1st 'fuel crisis' hit), it seems development money was shifted away from the big cars. The effort just wasn't as strong as traditionally...

Sure, PMD had a touch more of styling/fluidity to the flanks, but they still leave me flat in this era. Latest I would be willing to buy would be a '71 2-dr hardtop (steel roof only), and I think they're borderline ugly, but I like 'em. My grandfather ended his 7-car Pontiac streak with a '76 Gran Ville 4-dr hardtop, burgandy with Rallye IIs. Nice car, but this period is such a sad drop-off from only 10 years earlier...

There was a '79 Electra sedan in the GS club that was turning 11s, IIRC- looked bone stock on the outside except for tires.

Not an ounce of stylistic detail or inspiration in the entire 18 feet.

Friend/client of mine used to own a tiburon. He spent money on it too, rims, stereo, etc. He's had nothing but foreign since, currently drives a Jetta, and a most of his friends seem to drive imports, too. I asked him about the genesis but he snorted "$30K for a hyundia?? No way!" I asked him how he thought it looked, and he said 'Meh'. One car he has talked about longingly is the Challenger. Haven't discussed the Camaro yet...

>>"I wonder if some groups of people will be put OFF by the retro styling of the Camaro. "<< I strongly doubt it. The only thing retro-esque about it as it sits in front of you, is the grille opening/ frenched grille. Everything else is completely modern, it just calls to mind the '69 for those that know it well. But for the vast majority of consumers- '69 Camaros are not something seen often out on the road, and the proportional differences are not going to call the '10 to mind, IMO.

The Juggernaut from 13 Ghosts Michael Corvin from Underworld Dave 'The Animal' Batista Jason Statham Curly from the 3 Stooges (you can drop an anvil on his head and he just shakes it off!)

Well, I did something today I simply do not normally have time to fritter away doing. Was driving past 'my' Chevy dealer, which is the tiniest new car dealer I've seen. Lot averages between 12-20-some new vehicles, today it was 11. But one of them was a Victory Red '09 Camaro RS, V-6/auto. I had to pull over & check it out. Phenomonal, outrageous, dynamic, unique & amazing. The lines- it's a concept car in production. The Coke-bottle flanks, the tapered backlight, the sucked-tight overhangs... Car is as fresh as a bare-handed slap to the face, looks great from every angle. Wheels are huge. It straight-up sucks you right in. Interior (didn't get inside) is also unique & looks very sporty. Sticker was $28K. I'm not a 'Camaro person', but I was extremely impressed. BTW- this car did NOT have any brake caliper lead weights. Then I took a slight detour and swung into the hyundai megamall. This is one of the largest dealers in the east, I believe, always shouting outrageous deals in their radios spots. There was about 15 dusty genesis sedans there (and what's the dilly-o: with a 'hyundai genesis sedan' and a 'hyundai genesis coupe', why is the sedan starting $14K higher than the coupe ??? That's a huge sticker diff within 1 model name, no?).... plus 3 genesis coupes. The hyundai does look slightly smaller (even not being side-by-side), but this is mostly to the very low nose. Camaro isn't "large" by any means, but it has broader fascias & a higher hoodline. The hyundai is not bad looking - the droopy rear quarter window didn't bother me in person like it did in pics, and the nose also isn't quite as melted as it looks in straight-on pics. This could be argued to be a stand-out... FROM HYUNDAI; I can see it being appealing to a small portion of the import consumer pool, but it certainly does not stand out in a mixed crowd, despite the window sticker assurance of "dynamic styling". In fact, the rounded rear reminded me of the late '90s Merc Cougar for some reason... 2.0L stripper was $24K, 2.0L T was $27K, 3.8L T was just under $32K. Tho there were some other options involved, that's multi-thousands for just the 3.8 engine. This car is in no way going to sway those away from the Camaro. -- -- -- -- -- To get back to my earlier point : the hyundai is going the wrong way in this market for it's intended buyers, or at least it's 5 years too late. It's heavy for it's size and it's treading in the domestic 'muscle coupe' segment, and that's just not where the import loyalists have any desire to go. No way the Camaro buyer is switching camps. Guess we'll see how it pans out over time, but I'm going to be attentive to the 'insane deals' they attempt to push this car with.

You're right: base price should not be overlooked. $25K is not bad, but $32K is not what I believe most would call "affordable", not in this market. Hyundai could make deeper inroads by pricing it more like $20K / $25K- that's more where people expect hyundai to be at.

'58-59 Ford panel truck, ambling down I-78 East. '56 Bel Air 4-dr sedan, 2-tone blue '50 Cadillac 4-dr sedan, a disgusting non-stock pink.

balthazar: >>"Genesis is 96% the size of the Camaro, and 92% of it's weight."<< blackviper8891: Are you saying you had no point in stating that? The discussion, in case you didn't bother to read it, was that the hyundai is 'the one to watch' because it's 290 lbs lighter than the camaro, and it's the 'new direction'........ for those who have already demonstrated they prefer cars weighing 600-1000 lbs lighter than the hyundai. There was an attempt to drive a wedge between the Camaro & the genesis based primarily on weight difference (299 lbs) & size (8"). Like I said earlier, it's ridiculous. Apparently, the Camaro is deficient tho it's razor-close to the hyundai, and the hyundai is "affordable" at $32K. You should recognize exactly what this is: Let me add : nitpicking to the nth degree. My point; explained. You brought the Cobalt & Malibu into a thread on the Camaro/genesis, you can explain your point. -- -- -- -- -- moltar : >>"Unfortunately, Balthy is another guy that knows everything, is always right, walks on water, and has to dominate every conversation. Very much like Reg... except Balthy is the expert on all automotive history, and will tell you that. I'm sick of both of these guys, personally...thinking about adding them to my block list."<< You've got to be kidding me. You've got 5900 of my posts you can comb thru, find ONE that stated anything close to 'I'm right and you're wrong'. >>"Balthy is the expert on all automotive history, and will tell you that."<< To borrow from vipes' repetuare' : Quote me, bitch. We just had a direct conversation about non-underhood batteries; where did I tell you you were wrong? Where did I state 'no cars have trunk-mounted batteries'? Where did I challenge anything factual (or otherwise) in what you told me? God, grow up. And "dominate every conversation" ?? We joined the same month/year and you have 4000 more posts than I, most of them detailing the 'tweets' of various co-workers, friends, relatives & acquaintances, none of whom any of us asked about, have met or care about. Total anecdotal overload.... but who's keeping track ? :wink: I have zero members on my block list. Never have blocked anyone. I am tolerant of just about everything short of intentional idiocy {cough-smk-cough}. (And no; I'm not calling either of you two an idiot for your opinions.) Don't see why a discussion of 2 different viewpoints has to degenerate into intolerance and wild cast dispersions, but it's prolly inevitable at some point on an anonymous MB.

>>"The Cayenne is not a rebadge, it's platform sharing, same as GM does...you of all people should understand the difference between badge engineering and platform sharing. "<< Oh, I do; I was just relating the example to those who usually get this royally F'd up.

>>"A Cobalt is 94% the size of the Malibu and 88% of it's weight."<< Point ?

>>"The fact is it is still smaller and lighter. These are important to the import crowd."<< So the smallest & lightest car sells the most to the waning 'import tuner' crowd then, right ?? I mean, if 290 lbs is going to even come close to making or breaking a sale, this stuff is CRUCIAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So this segment leader would be the civic, right ? What chance does the hyundai have here- it's far too thirsty (big V-6) and too heavy (3500 lbs). For the import tuner folk left in the market, this car is going the WRONG WAY @ the wrong time, no? This crowd has long exhibited their preference for 4-cyl compacts/hatches, they want more tech, more performance, more individual styling... yet want to maintain economy due to tight budgeting (esp now). A bigger, heavier thirstier newcomer (with almost no specific aftermarket support) is going to be the 'new trend everyone is watching' ??? Which is it?

>>"No point in doing that if they are profitable. Plus, many of those brands (like Seat and Skoda) are sold in very few markets... it's not like GM; Porsche and VW Group are actually profitable."<< So you disagree (perhaps vehemently?) with those who advocate discontinuing GMC, right ?? Last I heard, porsche wasn't profitable until the cayenne rebadge started production. But there's still a point left - putting money into the core brand (VW) in order to repair the dismal reliability/longevity and poor ergonomics the recent cars have exhibited- that's far more important than -say- expanding bentley.

>>"Give it up Balthy. "<< Nope; hardheaded; I won't do it; it's idiotic and I refuse. >>"It's a 2 seat sports car, different category from the 4 seat Genesis."<< 2-seats, 4 seats; categories are so over already. It's primarily PR marketing spin to 'limit competition' and make your own vehicle look that much better. "Best in class" is about as meaningful these days as "the check's in the mail". In a sports car, no one is loading 800-1000 lbs of people in, then carving the canyons at 9/10ths. That'd be like commuting, party of 1, in a limousine with gas at $5/per. You want a compact, affordable, lightweight RWD sports car?? (And when did 3500 lbs become 'light' ?) Solstice : room for 2, great handling, 3000lbs, 260 HP. Yer purse pooch can ride shotgun, moltar. -- -- -- -- -- I agree almost entirely with you on the CTS/5-series, Olds, except I still believe most people shop with a price ceiling as the primary criteria. In other words: the CTS / 5-series absolutely compete with each other spec-wise, but I think the CTS / 3-series get cross-shopped more due to price tags... would love to learn some numbers here.

I have a couple DN (DN, DN in DC) games on my MAC that I play on occasion. Still cool.