balthazar

Take it & run with it, Camino !

Yea- that's it, Ted. Clearly, RE the pic w/ Reagan I mentioned, this was not any Saturn concept, but I was hoping this would pinpoint the announcement better. Interesting that Mercedes by 2015 intends to be at .20 and GM had an (ungraceful yet) producable car at .15 in 1985! Aero 2000 is not horrible in an antiseptic sort of way. IIRC it had flexible front wheel skirts that enabled the tires to 'stretch' them when turning. Dsuupr- if you feel motivated, take a peek thru your info and see if a specific date is there.

I did not take it as a 'smart ass' question- hope my answer wasn't taken that way, either. I, too, would be interested to know the specifics here, but I'm afraid toyoda (for EX) would not be divulging this information, probably at least partly because it would be strongly counter to the 'gentle benevolent guest' image they try to portray.

Not specifically, just stylistically generally. It has that low, droopy nose & time-worn 'angry lights / trapedzoidal grille' we've been looking at since the '90s. Look again at a -say- '94 accord : same shapes, same low hood, same angled hood lines, same under-bumper openings.... it's 15 years later and we're still dealing with a reshuffling of the same damned tired elements. 'Not revolutionary' ?? No, not even remotely.

You live in CA. You make your income in CA, pay your taxes in CA, and deposit your savings in CA, no? Not Maine, right? Sure, there are federal taxes, and national/international investment possibilities, but including your consumerism, is not the majority of dollars attached to your name shuttling around in CA ?? Toyoda is incorporated & headquartered in Japan, pays their taxes in Japan, and assumedly does a great portion of their banking in Japan. Sure, assumedly they pay some portion of their utilities & property taxes from their plants here (unless they're still skating on all the state freebies initially given...), but why would you think the bulk of their corp money would be anywhere else beside Japan, even if 75% is generated in the U.S. ?? BTW, it has been detailed here before that one cannot buy actual shares of TMC on the SE, only 'representative' shares- so 'where' is that money (if it's really anywhere') ?

>>"I know people that have cross-shopped the Silverado and the Tacoma."<< Here also- a buddy was ready to sign for the nissan (smaller pickup- whatever it's called) to replace his S-10, but upon some nudging by his friends who drive Silverados, he compared the Silverado V-6 and bought it instead. So much for that theory. In the high-impact world of sports coupes, where emotion tends to rise MUCH closer to the surface of consideration than maybe with any other sector..... just look at that opening pic! One car looks like a droopy early '90s sporty/econo car, and the other visually knocks you over like a firehose and has more heritage from day 1 than just about any other car. IMO, these 2 will NOT be cross-shopped just as much as the 3-series & CTS supposedly aren't cross-shopped. Another 'absolute' that needs to be dropped is : more weight always = worse handling. Esp when we are talking about only a few hundred lbs.

I continue to be amazed at those still micro-analyzing the WHERE a car is screwed together in a few hours... as defining what country the Corporation that allowed it to be created, is. The foreign car dealers had better suck it up and open their eyes: with a healthier... FAR larger employment base serving the domestic automobile industry, there is more potential for the few transplant foreign nameplates to increase their sales. Kill off all those connected withg thre domestic auto industry and you only shoot yourselves in the foot. Or, to nutshell it nicely ala Camino, once again: "Go F**k yourselves!" >>"every car sold in the U.S. does some good for the economy and America."<< Only initially. Obviously, in the long run, the potential for undermining to the point of collapse is quite real, and that's clearly "some bad".

That silver/charcoal car is EFFING SWEET !! I came close to owning a '69 J, Pepper Green with a steel roof, from the original elderly owners, but didn't have the scratch at the time.

Somehow I knew you'd kno, Brough-Ho. Thanks.

^ Right: >>"...buying an Astra in the US, for instance, credits the German current account, which allows them in return to purchase something from the US...."<< Once executed, that above in black is fact, but that in red is only a possibility- not a guarantee, which makes the whole = theory.

Looking for some verified, SPECIFIC dates: When was Saturn announced ? I have a clipping of then-POTUS Reagan driving a GM concept that looks like a red banana, it's captioned as a "Saturn concept", but it's wearing a Bowtie. It bears resmblence to & came after the Chevy Aero 2000, but has an enormous rear overhang: and I seem to remember this 'red banana' being called the "Citation IV" at one point. Could not find an online pic. This pic is from Time, 06-17-85. Have another clipping, undated, that says 'Saturn was announced Thursday', and by the back side- it points to Nov (reports of Oct car sales), I assume this is '85 again. Also, when was Saturn incorporated ? Did Hummer have an official announcment / agreement date? When was Oldsmobile's discontinuation announced ?

I seem to recall a test at 13.9, too. 428 HO was one of the best motors PMD built- a monster. Sigh.

>>"Foreign branded or foreign built? "<< Foreign corporations. Assembly point is secondary at best, esp RE the question at hand.

As no doubt the link verified (I didn't click it), the SSJ was the Hurst GP. These cars ARE undervalued, IMO, as a lot of the true classic late '60 GMs are (Eldorado & Toronado, for 2). >>"...it was not a GTO because of the extra weight"<< Base car weight; GP was only 140 lbs more than a GTO. Don't forget- it was on the A-Special ("G") chassis beginning in '69- no longer a B-Body. Gears are a probable factor in performance perception, because the HP/TRQ of the 428 HO should MORE than offset that vs a stock GTO. In fact: Car Life, 9/69: '69 GP 428HO 4-spd, 1/4mile: 14.1 @ 95. Car Life, 3/69, '69 GTO Judge RA IV 4-spd, 1/4mile: 14.4 @ 97. Even the much vaunted SD-455s in factory tune were supposedly good for 14.4s (vs. the 13.5s the non-production 310HP press cars were turning). RPO '71 GP engine options: Code WT 300 hp/400 3-spd Code WK 300 hp/400 4-spd Code YS 300 hp/400 auto Code YC 325 hp/455 auto None of these are solid lifter motors, in fact, the only period solid lifter motors were non-RPO RamAir motors (RA-V and above). Pontiac motors were nearly universally hydraulic-lifter motors, even the RA-IV and the SD-455s were hydraulic lifter motors (SD-421s were solid, tho) .... but the old tymer certainly could have retro-fitted his eninge with solid lifters after the fact.

My first car was a GP, I went on to own 6 others : 7 Pontiacs out of 20 vehicles total. Here, tho, the Pontiacs were all '64-66. Wife has owned 2 : '93 GA, '03 GP. Even tho I was not cognicent of it when it happened-- when the Corp dropped divisional engines in '81... that will always mark the beginning of the end for PMD IMO.

>>"If you click on the link, you'll see what was posted isn't an actual article. The hybrid purchases had nothing to do with 9/11 donations."<< Dude, are you always this tightly wound ? I was being facetious; trying to inject a bit of levity in a disproving opinion on NYC government buying a japanese fleet instead of American, esp in this economy. 10-4 on the donation amount, tho; always appreciate the facts... >>"Well, they still don't sell them everywhere. I've seen exactly one IRL. "<< I had no idea nissan had a hybrid until this article.

Trying to get in the right circles to unload an 1885/1892 Springfield Trapdoor regiment rifle.

'63 Chevy Nova II 2-dr hardtop pro-street car, tubbed, caged, surgically clean, flawless but yellow.

"Well, if toyota can just figure out how to build quality vehicles that Americans want to buy..." :wink:

>>"...in the 60's, and Pontiac used common parts with GM brands back then too. So, if not for Chevy, there would be no Pontiac."<< NOTHING like modern times, my friend. Completely different sheetmetal, different interiors, different engines, different transmissions & rears (early '60s), different suspensions, different brakes, ...tap out when you've read enough. Park a '64 Impala & '64 Bonneville next to each other- they share glass, alternators, light bulbs, .... ... lock cylinders, door hinges ...... ummm...... Carbs were different, radiators were different, heater cores were different, steering columns, seat frames... again, tap out when you're done. It would be just as easy and just as incorrect to say 'there'd be no Chevy if it weren't for Pontiac', esp since Pontiac was created to gain economies of scale for Chevy. Such is the Age of Cast Dispersions we're in, I've actually read contentions that the classic 'Wide Track' was marketing spin, not reality. I know Yesterday, and Today is no Yesterday.

The 40 were just bought, in 2009. There's a hybrid Malibu... or hadn't you heard?

In a heartfelt gesture, Mayor Bloombeg & the City of New York paid handsome tribute to General Motors, thanking them for their $10 Million spent (plus a fleet of support vehicles) in NYC & WDC immediately after the 9/11 attacks, by purchasing 40 hybrid sedans for use as both marked & unmarked police cars. "These new patrol cars will help fulfill the PlaNYC goal of reducing City government's carbon footprint," said Mayor Bloomberg. "We want to get the most mileage out of technology where it makes sense & with the addition of these hybrids, we're doing that literally," said Police Commissioner Ray Kelly. Though the just over $1M spent on the hybrids doesn't really go that far toward 'returning the favor' of GM's $10M, the sign of support the City showed GM cannot be missed.... ...the 40 hybrid sedans were nissan altimas. LINKY

>>"Never say never...these are interesting times...who knows what will happen to the Vette."<< The Corvette will go sub-V-8 when ferrari starts offering a turbo fiat 500 engine in it's tubby cars.

#2 : I know this design- have pics of it in my files, it's late '60s IIRC. One-off concept. I want to say it's a Bertone Lambo... #3 : '63 Lark. #4 : '53 Fargo #6 : '30 Bugatti Royale

Irony, cubed :: on the day GM announced Pontiac was to be discontinued, I received my commemorative 20-yr member pin from the Pontiac-Oakland Club International. Sigh.