balthazar

Still waiting to see an industrial / commercial example of principal & general decency from china....

Camino- I always found it curious you seemed to base your support of GM on future products; in contrast - I have always based it on past products I've owned and still dream to own. I find it difficult to support an entity on something that doesn't exist yet. I understand your position RE product potentially coming, then not completely: that disappointment. But you have so much good history together. "GM" is so much more than this very moment. I can no more abandon GM than I can disown my own family- the bond was forged in years past- I don't know how to unforge it- even as my enthusiasm for the modern Corp is tremendously muted due to the nature of the Modern Car. I certainly am not going to switch to a manufacturer that has never appealed to me previously on the hopes of what they may build in the future. And were I to define myself; I am a Pontiac Man. Peace to your car soul, brother Camino. Hopefully time will heal some.

The problem with the above is.... I thought all GM cars were merely "badge-engineered", not uniquely engineered products by autonomous divisions ?? "8 brands" is only a discussion point if the "badge-engineered" claim is majorly true. No; the truth lies somewhere in the middle, where --to be more accurate-- GM must be maintaining (cost-wise) more like 4 divisions at best. It does not cost double to -say- create 10 ads for Chevy as it does to create 5 each for Pontiac/ Chevy. (Effectiveness is another matter, of course, and yes; there's a ROI there.) Also, there are no stand-alone Pontiac plants, hasn't been one since the home plant in Pontiac MI, which must be gone as a Pontiac-only plant since the early '80s. Shuttering Pontiac can ONLY reduce plant count if all are running at near capacity, and the reduced volume allows shuffling volume to do so. Otherwise, we still have plants running at an even lesser volume... or more inefficiently. Fleet is largely immaterial unless it's done at a net loss. mazda is a fleet whore on the same order as Pontiac, yet somehow that's never an issue over there.

Never cared for motorhomes- it may be the random size/ placement of windows that makes them much more awkward & less stylized to my eye. And somehow, buses just seem... tougher. Don't care for later ones- friend had one of the Tornado-powered GMCs, and I vacationed in a Winnebago from the '70s; while it was great fun, nothing drew me t the vehicle itself. Dodge had a truck print ad in '63 that showed their bread loaf-esque Dodge motor home; like a disfiguring accident- it's hard to turn away; the fully skirted wheels, the blob-like silhouette... : To pull me in here, we have to get wild & unique, the Hunt Housecar, the Stout Scarab... things of this nature.

You mean, the same admin that has already openly talked about future large gas taxes to help lower consumption and push/force more green cars ?? :wink:

No doubt there's a whole WORLD of knowledge about these we have little idea about. Of course, there were styling trends & multiple models there, just as in cars / trucks.

I believe that first bus Moltar posted is a Flxible; they had those 'Fiero GT' over-the-roof air intakes. Turns out I do have a (crappy-esque) pic of the bus I recalled above, tho I see now that the 'number placard' was lower, on some of the venting screening : This one is also a Flxible. This bus, and every car you see in this shot perished circa 1998. Car to the left with the hood up was a '58 Buick Limited Cnvert, one of 839 cars, worth in the neighborhood of $95K restored.

>>"I do have some fear Government will go after classic cars, that get bad fuel economy, that are fun to drive and have big V8's. Nothing is stopping them, plenty of "green" people on booth sides of the political specturm to support this. "<< Never happen : far too insigificant in numbers, and most run much cleaner than assumed. Besides, they have yet to pass a retro-active law RE older cars that I'm aware of. IE: if they were legal when new, they're still legal today. Overturning that is a dangerous road...

I like the streamlined buses of the '40s. Used to be one in a junkyard near me; whole assend rounded down to the bumper and there was a flat disc projecting otward at roof level, kind of like a locomotive lamp, assumedly a number placard went there. There were no rear windows, only screened cooling vents for the engine. Wish I had a pic... But I need a hearse and a flower car.

The idea presented here that job specs, education level, income level or anything else is always or even often intentionally reflected in a particular car purchase.... and likewise that a particular car purchase is a reflection in reverse of the buyer is amazingly naive. As enthusiasts, I would expect the collective 'we' would have seen thru that while just 'car babies'.

Interesting piece to read, but I'm (not) surprised there's not a meandering overview of toyota's historical rot problems, casting all sorts of dispersions on the brand 'going back 30 or 40 years' and such... like we've all read the equivalent (EX: mentioning of the Cimarron in CTS articles). My '40 Ford has never been restored, has nary a flake of paint on it's frame, and it doesn't have a thin or soft spot on it. So damned much for "modern metallurical progress"... :rotflmao:

Worked: replacement kitchen window for an original from '17 and some misc fabricated bits, and picked up greenboard & a tub surround for a partial bathroom demo on Monday. Out from 10AM to 7PM. Buddy's son getting christened tomm- plus job estimate paperwork in the evening. No play for Balthy, and no Buick work. Tues/Wed : back on machines after almost 3 years (track hoe, skid steer). Have to clean out Bay #3 for a '65 Riviera to bunk there sometime next month. Wish I had plenty of other space to store my COE fenders, engine hoist, and 2 disassembled Chrysler Hemis.

Nothing subjective about that droopy diaper out back!

RE : "2 Year's Supply of EXCITEMENT!!!!!!!!" .... VW has a 2.5 year (27.7 month) supply of the rebadged Chrysler minivans on hand.

>>"So, $$$ is wasted on marketing, instead of engineering, pushing the same basic car, but it is supposedly "better" since it has a different name. The distinction worked from 1926 to 1979"<< Ironically, Pontiac was created to spread the cost of Chevrolet over a 2nd line. But soon after, Pontiac became another autonomous division, engineering a very different car from Chevrolet. What was perhaps the first catalyst in the Decline was GM's Corporate decision --at the whining of Chevrolet-- to forbid the unique Banshee from being built, and tossing PMD the Firebird package... tho this example should be stricken because of the overwhelming success of the Firebird line thru the '60s & '70s. But otherwise, throughout the '30s, the '40s, the '50s and the '60s - Pontiacs were nothing remotely resembling "the same basic" Chevy. The real first torpedo was the X-body of '71. These were just effortless offerings that started the whole "all GMs are alike' BS.

Never had shims come with pads- indeed- perhaps this is a HD thing. BTW- I see no reason not to reuse them as you did.

The 'vine pergola' is still quite the focal point, and it's different. Very neat.

Nice! What's the vine? Full pergola not in the budget ? Wall looks great!

Pontiac sold 3.8 million Catalinas- that has to be on a longer quantity list somewhere. I have always prefered the full-size cars- my eye always notes how the intermediates were de-engineered from their big brothers, plus you got magical cube numbers (421, 428) not available from the siblings until '70. Plenty to love in Pontiac's past- my pic of those posted above is the '63 SD.

close-ups on the hyundai are revealing- maybe it's the light but looks like some sloppy fit-n-finish on the outside, lots of exposed rubber gasketing, and that black rubber diaper at the rear looks tremendously cheap. hyundai ads by me explain the sales uptick- outrageous deals: ("buy a leftover '08 and get a free '09!!!" "We'll make your payments for a year!!!" "40% off sticker price" - that's be nearly $13K off a genesis). Guess cash on the hood talks the loudest. Whole front end looks like it's really melting- so droopy. Interior looks mildly schizo. Not that I was expecting anything impressive, but it sure looks like a real dud from all I've seen so far. -- -- -- -- -- Haven't seen much interesting, been buried in work. One thing tho: prius inching thru gridlock, clouds of cigar smoke billowing out from inside. So much for the environment. :rotflmao:

Decent fan instrumental cover of My Friend of Misery:

My CD player sometimes kicks an inserted CD back out; you have to 'snap' it in, but that's a minor annoyance at best. No other sound system complaints.

honda sales are comparatively low. toyota is neck & neck with GM (this disasterous year aside). toyoota is about as generically-insipid & appliance-like as they come- I fail to see how the general public could care anymore about toyota or honda- there is a plethora of choice in each segment any modern mainstream buyer could flip to with little adjustment or lament. The general public cares VERY little for any mainstream manufacturer living or dieing, but this is the nature of modern consumerism.

Well.. leessee... >>"GM has failed miserably to get Cadillac anywhere on the same plane as BMW and Mercedes in terms of prestige."<< Cadillac's segment sales share in the 3-series segment in 2000 : 0% What is it's segment penetration as of '08? CTS is very much so "on the same plane" as B & M. CTS-V destroys it's competition. >>"Sigma has been a disappointment sales-wise..."<< What were the official projections ?? >>"...and probably profits too."<< Conjecture. >>"It just didn't deliver like they thought it would."<< Conjecture. >>"The large sedan market is rapidly contracting so cars like the DTS are doomed."<< Pathetic-selling S-Series & 7-Class :wink: doomed, too, or will the S-Series :wink: just continue to be the fleet monster it is ?? >>"Chevy-based Escalade has been the most successful Cadillac image-builder lately..."< It's not "Chevy-based" as this generation was developed con-currently. It's GM-platform based, but not other-division based. >>"...the second GM division's future is tied heavily to Chevrolet. Probably an easier and more cost-effective mission for Buick."<< Conjecture. If a bankruptcy goes thru, the crushing debt obligation should be at least greatly reduced, if not eliminated. Money saved from the expected 'good GM / bad GM' split should finally free up more than enough cash to develop a 2-division Corp more effectively than it's been for years... but admittedly that's conjecture on MY part; I don't have any numbers to base that statement on. Do you?

>>"WHAT model year is the POS?"<< Who gives a flying rat's ass ? Is it even ID-able to one year ??