smk4565

The Mercedes C-class has gotten better each of the past 3 generations it got better interior and materials. The E-class I think needs to improve, current car isn't really as well built as the prior 2 generations but it is a cheaper car. In 2009 the E350 was $53,200 base MSRP, which is $76,000 in todays dollars. A 2023 E350 is $56,750 base MSRP, they cut cost out of it, I hope they screw that strategy on the next gen and engineer it like no other car, and if it costs $70,000, who cares, people can buy the C-class. The AMG One has an engine that was never made for the road, it an engineering feat just to get it road legal at all. And Mercedes does have the S63 E-performance that has more torque than the Demon 170 that does pass emissions. And I haven't insulted every American car company, I have been very pro Tesla and stated how they will be the #1 car maker in the world in 10 years, maybe by 2030.

Chrysler tried that upmarket push with the 300 back in 2005 and the Crossfire and Aspen, that didn't work. Buick's push to mid-luxury didn't work, Mazda is trying it now and it isn't working. People aren't going to pay $50,000 for a Chrysler when they can get a Lexus for that money or a Toyota/Kia/Honda, whatever for less. And that Chrysler may look good on the surface but I imagine that is all plastic wood, and probably in 5 years that interior will look terrible because the materials Chrysler uses are made to look good new, but not hold up over time. That is what cheap materials do. Stellantis is clueless on quality. Mitsubishi puts quilted leather in $30k crossovers too to try to pull that trick. CT6 had a bad interior and again the quality of materials is a problem. Way too much GM parts bin in that car, anytime I sat in one, all I could think was cheap plastic and budget cuts. Also weak and unrefined powertrains at the start, the V8 showed up way too late. It was a car with no market, if you are going to build a big luxury car it better be S-class good, otherwise make a mid-size car, but part of the problem was also the CTS was upsized to be a discount 5-series, so it put the CT6 into no-man's land in the market. And the badge snob thing is true, people aren't going to touch these brands with damaged reputations. Because Chrysler = cost cutting.

I would imagine once they engineer the inline 6 for the Charger, to do it in the 300 and do the emissions certification or whatever they need to do would only add pennies on the dollar. But how many people would buy a 400 or 500 hp Chrysler 300? But if it doesn't cost them anything, then why not. I think the ship has long sailed on making Chrysler a luxury brand, or even a relevant brand. You could put the Grand Wagoneer interior in a 300 with the 500 hp hurricane I-6 and charge $50,000 for it, and it wouldn't sell. We saw Lincoln try with the Continental and that bombed, CT6 bombed. Big sedans aren't a market, sedans in general aren't much of a market. And if it were an EV Chrysler, it would have to be superior in every way to a Tesla and cheaper than a Tesla to get people to even consider it, because Chrysler is the past, Tesla is the future.

The 2011 Sonata was a game changer for the segment and that car sold well. The next Gen was plain and boring, didn’t do as well. The fish mouth look was just not good. This car looks good now.

I like the look of this, it looks really good. I was never a fan of that fish mouth droopy front end of the last one. This looks pretty sharp and the inside looks good too, compare that interior to like an Altima, Malibu or Legacy and it looks 10 years newer. The pre-face lift car had really fallen off in sales, from like 200,000 a year the last gen to 55,000 or something last year, so they had to abort that styling and go with something else.

Used Hellcats right now are $50-85k for the most part, nothing is going to make those go up in value. So I don’t see the last call demon selling for like $200k 20 years from now when there will be a ton of cheap hellcats and prior demons out there All the prior CTS-V’s, Camaros, Shelby Mustangs all depreciated.

The thing with these last call Challengers is I don’t think they will appreciate. The Charger/Challenger are volume cars that have been around 15 years, the 10 year old V6 cars are worthless. So I don’t see the last call going up in value over time, it isn’t like a Ferrari that was low volume. Secondly, the baby boomers will buy this, and people under 50 could probably care less about this car so who do you sell it to in 10-15 years for profit? And EV’s are fast in a straight line, this car’s one trick is about to be rather common. People will pay for a 90s M3 or M5 because the weight is low. The steering feel and the stuff you can’t get anymore with electric steering and heavy cars.

Catch up when? Ford said they expect to be at 10% margin on EV's in 2026, Tesla was at 20% margin in 2022. Tesla sales are up an estimated 39% YTD in the USA, 46% in China, they are that fastest growing car maker, up 44% last year in a down market, going to be up over 40% this year. The Model Y is the number 4 selling vehicle in the country, on pace for over 400,000 units this year. Mach-E, Hyundai/Kia can't scale at that level and even if they could, I don't think there are 400,000 people that want to buy a $50,000 Hyundai Ionic, or any Hyundai at any price because they never had a car sell that volume. And keep in mind, Chevrolet has 11 vehicles with base price under $40k, Ford has 10, Toyota has 13, Hyundai has 8, and that isn't counting the hybrid version or coupe and convertible as 2 models. That is where those brands do a ton of business. Tesla has zero cars under $40k. Once they hit the price point that the masses can afford their sales probably double or triple. And there is a 500 hp version of the inline six. They could drop that in the Challenger/Charger/300 for an SRT model and it would likely be faster than the 6.4 V8's. Assuming they want to spend the money to engineer it to fit in the car, certify emissions, etc. Not sure if they want to spend any money on a 18 year old platform car at this point, when they can fleet sale Pentastar V6 LH cars a couple more years just to have something to sell.

Tesla is 12 times more valuable than GM, and Tesla made more profit than GM last year, despite having half the revenue. GM's cash on hand is $3 billion more than Tesla's but GM has way more overhead to cover. We are about 5 years away from Tesla outselling Ford and GM globally, about 10 years from Tesla outselling VAG and Toyota, and that could be less if Toyota is slow to EV's which they seem to be.

Back to the Challenger, I get that they are making like 3000 of these, so it is a really limited market, but for $100k plus you could get a Corvette, maybe low end 911 or M5, Tesla Model S, etc. There are lots of fast cars, and if not a drag strip that Challenger 0-60 won't be that good, it won't hook the power up in the real world. But if you do go to the drag strip, and like the one trick, it is a good trick.

Betting against Tesla = bad idea.

They could do rwd base at $50k, awd at $60k is what I am thinking. Tesla has a more efficient manufacturing process with newer plants than the legacy OEM’s. That is where Tesla is winning. They also vertically integrate, rather than buying everything from suppliers who have a mark up, then sell to a dealer that has a mark up.

It has to be around $50k to start to get the 200,000 volume I think. That’s the magic number because we see how GM, Ford and Ram pushed truck prices to 60, 70, 80 thousand and now these trucks are stuck on dealer lots. A $60k loan at 6.5% is about $1100 a month for 6 years. Then add gas, maintenance, insurance, it is like $1500 a month to drive a new pick up. Not going to be a huge buyer pool if they keep pushing prices and interest rates stay high. If Tesla is priced like an ICE truck with $7500 tax credit, no gas, limited maintenance, better resale value then there is a big cost savings for the Tesla.

They can sell Pentastar V6, Charger, Challenger, 300 for a couple more years easily. Well they can easily keep them around, might take cash back deals to actually sell them, If they plan to keep the LH cars around a while they could put the inline 6 in, I assume that will take some engineering dollars that they may not want to spend. But if they want to, they could sell a 500 hp inline 6 SRT Charger and slap some hurricane stickers on it and they could be selling SRT “last call” Challengers in 2027.

So Cybertruck could take 10-15% of that market, I think that is pretty reasonable. That still puts the F150 to about 600k units a year, the Model Y could pass that. Mercedes EV sales aren't poor, the EQS is the only one that was on sale all last year, it is the #2 selling vehicle over $100,000 ICE or EV and it is only #2 because Mercedes makes the #1 seller. The EQS outsold the Taycan, the 911, even outsold the Cadillac CT4 that is 1/3rd the price. Mercedes too though needs to ramp up more production and they need the smaller size EVs because the volume lives there, not with a $125,000 sedan. And my point is not about low EV sales, it is more about profitability of EV sales, which these low volume producers don't make any money. And my other point is Tesla hasn't hit the mainstream price yet, once you can get a Tesla for the same price as an ICE Chevy/Ford/Toyota/Hyundai/etc and then get a tax credit, no gas, limited maintenance, less depreciation, a Tesla becomes cheaper than owning a Corolla. That is game over for the legacy OEM's.

iD4 sales suck too. The Taycan and EQS sell quite well for $100,000+ cars. What Audi, BMW, Mercedes have to do is get their volume level EV's cranking, and essentially covert the 2 million per year ICE sales they had in 2020 to 2 million EV sales in 2030. But they already took the hit from Tesla, Tesla isn't making more cars aimed at them, they are making cars aimed at the mainstream car brands. So the German luxury brands will probably be okay there. I agree it is about scaling up, and Tesla is the only one running at real scale right now. I see the challenge of the next 10 years not in who builds the best car, it is in who can scale up and produce EV's at a price masses can afford. Look at an EV6 or Ionic 5, basically $50,000 cars when Kia/Hyundai customers are used to paying $30,000 for a small crossover. The Ioniq 5 should be $30,000, not $50,000, otherwise it is a low volume car, not a volume seller. If GM can run 300,000 Equinox EV at $30,000 price point, well done to them, that is the sort of thing it will take to survive.

I think the Cybertruck will be more than competitive with the F150 Lightning that is supply constrained and over priced. By next-gen car, I mean the $25,000 Tesla coming from the Mexico plant, and later other plants. That is game over for Corolla, Civic, HR-V, Kicks, Trailblazer, Trax, etc. Elon's goal is 20 million units per year, the world car market is roughly 80 million units per year and not expected to grow, so legacy OEM is going to lose a lot of market share in the next 10 years. Ford loses $9,000 per EV sold, Tesla makes $9,500 per car. Ford has an $18,500 cost issue to overcome, that is a big ask.

1.5 million reservations for Cybertruck, but lets say in reality they sell 200-250,000 per year, that still steals maybe 50k each from Ford, GM and Ram, maybe a few from Toyota and a few new truck buyers. It still disrupts. The next-gen Tesla that is half the cost to build as a current Model 3/Y will outsell the F150. If the Cybertruck over performs or Tesla cuts price of Model Y again, Model Y might surpass the F150. I think the Charger EV will be low volume, just like the Airflow will be low volume, the Hornet and all Alfa Romeos are low volume, Pacifica and Durango are sinking volume. Not sure how any of those brands survives without volume because without big economies of scale, EV's are money losers.

Time for this car to go, sales declining and coupes aren't popular. They hint that the Camaro story isn't over, so I suspect it returns as an electric SUV. But why do we need Equinox EV, Blazer EV, Camaro SUV EV, Traverse EV, Trax/Trailblazer/Bolt maybe get merged to 1 EV, etc. All these variants but if they aren't all good what is the point. I think they don't want to kill name plates so they keep making variants.

I know they have the Hornet, Alfa Romeos are pretty sales proof, I doubt the Hornet will be any big seller, but at least it is a product in a big segment. I get that they have the Daytona/Banshee EV Charger and Airflow in the works, but if the Charger Daytona is 2-door only, that limits sales right off the bat. And do they actually have the battery capacity to crank these out? Cadillac sold like 900 Lyrics last year, Hyundai and Kia only managed about 20k Ioniq 5 and EV6 a piece last year, Mach E was about 39k, and all 3 of those about doubled their 2021 numbers as they ramped production. Dodge and Chrysler might sell 20k EV's combined next year, along with the Durango that already has $5000 cash back offers since it is old as dirt, the Pacifica is slumping and we'll see with the Hornet. I don't see a lot of sales volume out of Stellantis, who also is killing the Cherokee. Not to mention Stellantis dealers seem to be stocking all the high end trims, and carrying Wranglers and Grand Cherokees with $60k price tags at a time with high interest rates (Fed raised them again today) and what most people think is a slowing economy with inflation hitting everything else. The buyer pool for $60-100k vehicles is only so big, and the luxury brands are already there, any legacy OEM that abandons the under $45k price tier is basically handing it over to Tesla when the next-gen car arrives. Tesla Model Y was the #3 selling vehicle in the USA last month, the next gen car will sell better, take the sales crown from the F150, especially after the Cybertruck wrecks the sales of full size trucks.

What are they going to sell in 2024? The Banshee is in concept form, although close to production ready, so maybe they they can get it production ready by January. But do they have the supply chain worked out to actually build at scale? And Chrysler will be down to just a minivan since they have nothing in the pipeline except the Airflow which is pretty much vaporware at this point.

Somehow I feel like there will be 2024 Charger and Challenger models. And 2025 even if they are just 6 cylinder.

Right, 791 hp and 1,055 lb-ft, I looked up the actual number. That is supposed to end up in the SL and AMG GT also. The Turbo 4 e-performance is 671 hp. There is supposed to be a turbo six e-performance to split the gap for E-class and wherever else they want to deploy it. The V8’s days are numbered I can tell.

The point was made by David that the base powertrain in the GLC is underwhelming but it is on par with BMW, matches the RDX A-spec, beats even the XT5 V6, probably is quicker than a base or Hybrid Lexus. Yes the GLC300 will be 85% of sales, maybe 90% but the base powertrain is plenty adequate for the segment. And unlike Acura, Lexus or Cadillac, Mercedes will sell a performance version.

The Malibu sucks for sure, but I don't know if it is a good strategy for GM and Ford to totally give up on cars, because once competition hits their SUVs, they'll cancel some of them, like Ecosport is dead, Edge is supposedly dying. Explorer sales are half now what they were 20 years ago. And Tesla hasn't even hit the mass market brands hard yet which is about to happen, by 2030 Tesla will be outselling Ford and GM. Which is why GM, Ford, Cadillac especially need killer product. Cadillac could do a Lyric V-series right now, what are they waiting for? Other than they have no production scale, but assuming the factory was actually making them, they should have V-series of that.