FUTURE_OF_GM

I will go on record saying this: Sure the G6 GXP is ugly, but I never see anyone bitching about the gawdawful Lancer with all it's tacked on $h!, or the WRX which looks like a typical earth nugget Subaru that has been in the back lot of Pep Boys for too long.

Amen!!! This society has gotten SO bad about "what's cool" and "what's not" Everyone has to always be loved be 'the crowd' to the point that it dictates the kind of life they live. It's entirely stupid and it's sad that people are that image concious when there are so many more important things in life. Who says it's a bad thing to drive a Pontiac anyway? Pompous assholes like a certain person that I used to post against here? (You fill in the blank) Seriously.... The last thing someone should do is let an arrogant, know-nothing, urbanite paper shuffler (media) determine what they buy and how they live. That's why I always enjoy being the bad guy, or the guy that has the opinion completely opposite of what's accepted; because I think 'trendiness' is stupid. In fact: I think I might try and develop a Pontiac marketing campaign on that very principle... Something that is edgy and says "You know what, YOU'RE not supposed to buy me because THEY (other bland car companies) think they know what you want and how you need to live." "Do you dare to drive Pontiac?" Or something less stupid sounding. After all, Pontiac is and always will be GM's 'bad boy' division (To those of us who matter anyway)

But the arguments aren't emotional at all.... It has been outlined numerous times on this board about how cutting divisions would just drive costs through the roof and be a revenue losing nightmare.The fact of the matter is, at this time it is a BETTER business decision for GM to maintain (for later growth) these divisions rather than losing what sales they have altogether. The Sky has not been more of a success than the Solstice; if anyone needs proof, look no further than the sales number Northstar posted earlier in the thread. You know, if I had a nickel for everytime I heard this phrase and "GM (random program/platform here)" I'd be able to fund this semester in college. Seriously.... LOL... That's too easy. We will innovate our way out of this, nothing about billions invested in alternative fuels is "just talk" All we need for ethanol is an infrastructure, when plug ins become the big urban car of choice, the law of supply and demand will effect gas and the prices will either decrease or stay roughly the same relative to inflation.You'll not see the majority of americans in a and b segment cars unless they are forced into them which, even with tougher legislation, isn't likely to happen. Amen!

It almost wouldn't look so bad if it didn't have the dopey high set Previous gen Malibu/current gen G6 headlights. The wheels, in typical GM 'performance addition' fashion, look horrible.

While the Supra might've been a pretty decent hit; at the same time the MR2 NEVER lived up to what it was supposed to. Subsequently, they're both in the grave now. (Until the new Supra debuts) With today's super saturated market for commercialized goods and consumers tuning out by the droves daily EVERY company has to beat the consumer over the head to convey mission statement and brand DNA. Nobody has a problem identifying those particular three because 1) They're all very small and focused players. 2) The mission has been consistent (Exactly what I preached GM et al. should be) and 3) By in large, the products they sell have carried the same characteristics for YEARS... Nobody has any trouble identifying McDonalds for what it is, nor do they Readers Digest. Because neither of those brands has deviated from it's main mission in years. EXACTLY! The problem is: GM has been marketing 6 or 7 brands to the same damn limited customer base for 15-20 years now.Why make 6 or 7 cars for ONE type of buyer? (As GM has up until VERY recently) What they are (hopefully) trying to do now is turn their baggage into assets by FOCUSING each division onto a seperate buyer. I'm a big fan of Chevrolet, but when it comes to TOP knotch performance (The kind that costs $$$) Chevrolet should NOT build for that market. It should instead be Pontiac. Just as Buick should NOT build for america's richest 5%, as that should be Cadillac's job. Which is exactly what happened to Oldsmobile... If GM is only willing to gives these divisions 10 years to completely heal then they might as well kill them now and save the millions wasted. It will be a LONG TERM process; GM did not get in this bad of shape in 10 years and the divisions will not fully recover in 10 years (However, I think they will make excellent progress)

No one...That's the point. GM has the brand equity, so why not use it to INNOVATE like the company used to do? Who ever heard of a brand of small cars that sell on personalization? No one, until Scion. Who ever heard of a brand that sells nothing but hybrids? No one, until Toyota rolls out the varying Prius models in a few years. Get my point? GM has assets and it needs to start using those asset (Brands, powertrains, capacity) or it will die. Sure, Chevrolet might suffer *a little* as a result of Pontiac's investment. However that is better than the alternative of SHUTTING divisions down in a hyper competitive environment and thus losing major assets as well as ground that even a juggernaut Chevrolet will NEVER regain. About 2 years ago on this very board I preached that GM's divisions needed to have co-hesiveness and theme. Look at the Nissan revival and how the consumer noticed... Look at the Mazda sales surge... Each of those divisions have a THEME and mission because all of the models convey the same message to the consumer while at the same time being outstanding products (Mazda anyway) on the side of utility. When I look at Pontiac, I see a Solstice that says "Sex on wheels" I see a G5 that says "I've been put in the corner because GM is embarassed that I'm a cross dressing Cobalt"--- as it is at most Pontiac displays I see a G6 that says "I'm as good as Ronnie Z and the old skool GM could do" I see a Vibe that says "I'm actually an old Toyota, yet I'm as good as most of my stablemates here" and I see a Torrent that says "I'm a nice attempt, but I should've went to some other division." That makes for a schizophrenic Pontiac that says "Hey I'm GM's excitement division!!! Or am I.... Well I was.... Umm, maybe now I'm the volume catch all... If you can't buy a Chevy, buy me." It's the same problem Lincoln has and the same problem Kia has and the same problem (sadly) that Plymouth had for many years.

There's wrong an there's wrong and then there's this above statement. The new crop of Pontiacs ARE improving brand image among people. The only catch is they are YOUNG people (My age; 25 and younger) The G6, GTO and Solstice have ALL helped improve what Pontiac is... I see more G6's around this area (a LARGE college area) driven by young people than any other domestic. Just the other day I notcied 2 identical coupes parked together in the garage. I recently took 2 friends (One 21 and one 23) who are not in the least car people, to a car show. A Solstice GXP sat parked next to all of the classics. Conversation ensued and both flat out told me that they really like the new Pontiacs, specifically mentioning the later 3 cars. The image for Pontiac is changing; it's just going to take time.... A LOT of time if GM keeps the introductions both lean and low key. I don't ever remember hearing this... I know the Trans Am CERTAINLY could not be referred to as bland and the Grand Am was summed up a lot of ways, but certainly not bland. 2 things wrong with that statement. 1) I see A LOT more Solsti than Sky, so I'm not sure if that statement is entirely true (Granted "sightings" aren't that reliable as predictors, but still FWIW) and 2) Pontiac ALSO didn't have the marketing injection that Saturn recieved NOR did it receive any additional introductions... Other than the Solstice, the last major Pontiac intro was the G6 which is getting pretty dated. Compare that to Saturn which, for all intents and purposes has a BRAND NEW PORTFOLIO of NEW SKOOL GM designs and the sales difference is logical and justified. I still don't understand exactly why Pontiac has such a HORRIBLE image... The recent car have been solid and the brand has HUGE historic value. But I guess since people want to kill all that is distinctly american and since Pontiac *is* GM's most vulnerable division, we get slander pieces and attacks like this. 1 word: MARKETING... The Sky has received MORE and BETTER marketing than the Solstice. I barely even saw any exposure on the Solstice and when I did see it, it somehow (in typical GM PR fashion) destroyed the looks of the car and botched it's virtues.) Ummm... Yeah, maybe THAT has something to do with the difference?!?!?! We're splitting hairs about $475 on a $22-25,000 transaction?!?!?! Please.... THIS is KEY! GM, if you continue to build PASSION into vehicles like this for Pontiac; the division WILL become relevant again. Any good business man will tell you that it takes money to make money... GM cannot simply expect to produce LOW BROW cars on a cut rate budget and expect it to be 'the good ole days' again. It's going to take INVESTMENT TIME and INGENUITY to bring the divisions back. Especially the divisions that seem to be really far gone.

And you be exactly right. The Mustang consistently handed the F4 Camaro it's hat in sales and acceptance.

And which one has better credibility in the media and the EVER SO IMPORTANT---IMPORT DOMINATED tuner market? That's right; the Neon SRT-4 which justifies my comment about the Caliber SRT-4 killing the HHR SS. And I fail to see how this: 'Plastic grille that fell out on a speed bump' and all looks better than this: which looks integrated to the overall look of the vehicle. (ricer or not; I like it) And this 'plain-jane HHR with a gawdy tacked on bumper': Compares to this: Which doesn't look POOR fitting and even includes sexy additions to the hood. It's about overall look AND performance. Sure it's not everyone's style, but it IS the style of this market and I'm willing to bet that the HHR's tacked on appearance, equal yet not class leading performance and general retro vibe will not bode well for sales. Sadly, it's the same reason the Cobalt SC/SS never made much of a splash. ***And you all know how much of a fan I am of the regualr HHR, I heavily considered buying one for crying out loud. I think the main thing that bugs me about the HHR SS, more so than the bumpers, is th cheap ass grille treatment. Maybe my opinion will change when I see it in the flesh, god knows I've eaten a lot of crow before (300C, Escalade anyone?) but for now, that's where I stand.

I'm not sure what everyone here is smoking... But the Calibur SRT-4 will KILL the HHR SS. It actually looks BETTER (Unlike the HHR SS, the add ons look intergrated and aggressive as opposed to tacked on and ricer-classy) and it'll probably mop the floor with it at the track. Kudos to Chrysler.

He justified it by saying that the Camry sells on it's reputation; which it and the Accord both do.This isn't a brand new phenominon, even you import lovers will admit that some domestic models do the same thing. And yes, the Camry is, for al intents and purposes, a LESS THAN IMPRESSIVE choice of transportation. All it needs is an "H" that's how it's credible.

So with GM it was an image issue, but Honda is allowed to be subpar simply because it costs too much to update their rigs. And this judgement is made from??!?! ........Pictures......

Not impressive in the least... The Malibu and Aura are much nicer in every respect. I actually prefer the current Accord to this Korean disaster but I do think the interior is at the very least 'competitive' But alas, it'll sell like crazy because of blindly loyal people and that nice fat "H" in it's Elementally ugly grille.

I think a new El Camino would go over so well here in the states. If there ever was a time; it is now. This thing would plant the honda crapline six feet under.

The choice is easy: Corvette z06 However, the hard part would be the color.... Daytona Orange, Black or Silver... Decisions, decisions.

X2

I'm still not sure about it... And those wheels are STILL hideous.

Still not sure I like it. The front and rear just look a little too JC Whitney for me.

I actualy like it a lot... It has quite a bit of potential to be 'ugly, yet cool' like Scion if GM markets it right and Chevrolet gives it a chance. (Neither of which will happen, we all know)

I see more Turds around here than GMT900s.... Of course, that's no surprise given the demographics and the notoriously high toyota numbers here. Then again, my mom says I'm full of crap because she seems to be seeing a ton of GMT900s and not many Turds. I guess it's ll in what you notice.

Camino is preaching gospel to me... This very reason is why I love my hometown so much, especially the area in which I live. We're right on the edge of the forest and it's a neighborhood of 7 houses at a dead end. If I wanted to go off from people, all I have to do is hit the mountain right behind my house and hike it to the national forest where no one would find me for months or years. (Seriously... Remember Eric Robert Rudolph? He stayed in these mountains avoiding the FBI for years, but he also had people who supplied him with food and such) But it's chnging fast because we're having an influx of people moving in (From urban yuppie areas, naturally) and destroying our mountains by building huge developments. Charlotte is the exact opposite of that and it stresses me out so bad. I literally feel like I'm living on top of people and I have NO privacy. Traffic, people, clusterf**k building and urbanization all stresses. Steph my GF is the exact opposite. She loves our hometown but enjoys the city more; she is an extrovert whereas I am pretty introverted. I could seriously see myself eventually buying a farm and having a barn or two full of classic cars and just pretty much withdrawing from society. (especially the way our society is heading) I mean, I'm not a hermit or anything but I've never really needed 'people' to survive and I don't think I ever will. Anyway, sorry to ramble on. I would certainly recommend WNC or eastern Tennessee if you want to get away. We have quite a bit of rugged, isolated places. We used to go camping for weeks at a time at this horse camp in the mountains that had no running water, no power and no phone for 20 miles; it was great! This past saturday I went to a place called Elizabethton TN for one of their legendary cruise nights. I say legendary because I have been hearing about how good they are for 4-5 years. The cruise in was everything I had hoped for; main street historic district covered in old cars and car people, but the town is what really floored me. It was what seemed to be the PERFECT place to live; small town atmosphere with old mills and genuinely nice people who either cared about their property or farmed. Lots of retro and historic stuff and plenty of parks. Heck even the local driving range had a live band and EVERYONE was out either having a barbeque or walking or porch sitting. It was something else.

I'm moving back to Charlotte and would be up for meeting. However, that might be during thanksgiving break so I might be back in Asheville that weekend. I'll check the calender.

Nice... I didn't even know he was working on a solo project. (Oh, and I'm on dial-up so I'll have to check out the song later-- I'm sure it's awesome)

LOL, that's funny since her dumbass husband is the reason we're in this situation in the first place.... I swear to god, I think the chinese had pictures of him in bed with a 12 year old boy or something, because he ALWAYS bent over backwards for China. hell, his administration was the one that granted them free trade in the first place. So much for the "bill that could single handedly save the domestic auto industry" I knew something like that was too good to be true because Detroit NEVER will and never does get a break like that. So what options do we have? 1) We can piss China off and watch what little industry we have go down the drain rapidly -or- 2) We can sit here and not piss off China and watch our country continue to rot away like the 'has been' it is... A.K.A. "Way to go dumbasses, were so screwed it's not even funny."You know, EVERYONE with half a brain knew tht this was coming and that it was a bad idea to 'sell america out' China essentially declared war on us (Just like they always said they would) except it isn't a traditional war. I just didnt think they would win this quickly, but hell, I guess that's what happens when our bleeding heart society helps them every step of the way. Naturally... China has us over a barrel and they know it. It's their way or the highway and that's exactly how it'll be. This nonsense and complete lack of intelligence on the part of our government and it's followers are yet another reason why I no longer support this country. A-f**kin'-men brother! I'm SOOO tired of this country fixing everyone elses problems at the expense of ourselves. It's high time america THINKS about america and the future of itself before 'itself' has no future.

I called the bank about financing and got the bad news I was affraid of getting. The car is too old to be financed on a used car loan (and my window of opportunity is closing fast if I want an F-Body--Usually the limit is 5 years old) I could technically get a personal loan but 1) Interest would be higher 2) I'd have to have a co-signer because of my low level of income. If it were a used car loan, the co-signer wouldn't be needed because naturally the car would be the asset that backs the loan. I'm going to keep my eye out for something in the 2002 range. As of right now used Mustang GTs are running about 2-4 grand less than comparable F-bodies. Probably because they're plentiful and probably because the name is still being produced and demand is up for the new body style. Not to mention the F-Body was by many accounts a more desireable car in comparison anyway.