FUTURE_OF_GM

Oh okay... so we've moved on to the "just because my import's newer it's better" GREAT....LOL More excuses and alternate example propaganda for Toyota, when their offerings CLEARLY were not up[ to par... I swear, if everyone in the industry is as snowed as some of the responses I've heard here, then GM really DOESN'T have a chance in hell... WOW. Talk about DOUBLE STANDARDS being thrown around... Toyota car that is out of date: "Yes but, yes, but... Yes but, it's still better or, it's still excellent on THIS measure" (Nose in the air) GM car that is less than competitive: "GM MUST DIE!!!! BURN IN HELL GM!!! YOU MUST PAY FOR YOUR INCOMPETENCE!!!!" (Okay, I'm having fun now---but seriously, the bias is blatant)

Wow... Looks like last years ES just ATE a lot more... It's a plumper. The interior is weird and ugly IMO. That upper dash just doesn't look appealing. NOW WAIT A MINUTE!!!! In the new Lucerne article in Car and Drivel, RWD is automatically considered fundamentally better NO MATTER WHAT... But now, we're reversing opinions on this for the woefully FWD Lexus? WOW!! talk about a 'yes man' Something I've been called many times... And all this based on ASSumptions?!?!?!? BTW: americans suck LOL... And WE'RE the elitests...

WOW! Someone's a fan of Ford & Mazda... Man, they didn't waste any time STEALING the new Ford NA grille.

Nothing revolutionary at Toyota.... Besides the checks from the PR department.... Seriously though, all they do is improve on already introduced technology. Their real advantage is 'walking on water' in the eyes of the media. But, if I HAD to pick a vehicle... The Camry, because of it's broad opportunity for exposure to the brand.

Maybe it succeeded this time because GM actually MARKETED IT!!!!!! Jesus GM, what does it take to make your people understand that people just don't innately KNOW about this stuff! But the company decided to give it another chance. On Jan. 11, it announced a wide range of reductions, many of them $1,000 to $3,000. With them came a new set of incentives that ran until Jan. 31. Now, the February-March incentives have been put in place, and they are largely unchanged from the January offers. Positive progress!!!!! I'm sure all of the negative PR this week will STALL that sh*t right in it's tracks for February though.

NO WAY! Toyoat does better for more reasons than this... Brand count is not important when you have the kind of money they do. I agree, if a brand were to go... I'd vote Saab. I don't believe that for a minute... With the right product ANY of GM's brands can be saved. Buick is global anyway... GP GXP.... GTO... G6 coupe/convertible Yeah, lemme tell ya.... Cadillac is really going down the sh*tter sales wise. EXACTLY! Which is a HUGE story AND problem in and of itself (Which Toyota knows about and acknowledges) YET not a single damn story has been PITCHED on it.... No, all we ever hear is "Buick is dieing" Now, now... Lets not TWIST the argument here... The POINT of your post was image. And the GTO delivers (Without the retro styling) Too bad that never got massive media exposure... OH WAIT!!! That would go against the LIE. Nevermind. BINGO!!!!!! If GM would use the POTENTIAL of it's entire portfolio to it's fullest extent; they'd OWN the market. End of story. Ummm, okay... Then why did Toyota start Scion????????? Better yet; if branding doesn't matter, why did Toyota start Lexus?????? Both of which are fine... That's beside the point. If GM were reduced to Saturns, Cadillacs and Chevrolets. Then I would have NO reason to buy GM. And neither would the hundredes of thousands of other customers. Killing divisions is SERIOUS nd BAD business. yeah, okay... First of all, your talking about TOYOTA. Not some NORMAL brand. Secondly, we ALL know how Toyota dealers are regarded so I wont even go there.

*** I swear, these people just won't quit until they see a little more of GM destroyed will they?*** Great advice.... MY ASS. Everybody has an opinion, and they're all like the girls on the corner. THEY SUCK! Better yet, I don't think Saab ever HAD a message.

Looks like the media is set to assasinate GM. As far as the 'analysts' go... They won't be satisfied until GM is liquidated.. And they'll continue to make their views public as long as they can make a buck off of theri demise. Well, that's guranteed to happen... This is GM afterall Gas prices are certain to go up. Goodbye GM... Of course, we all know that I've been predicting this for 3 years now. York will order divisions to be cut (Not a good thing) and the new PR guy won't matter. The media will MAKE the news against GM regardless.

Agreed 100% Actually, we'd prefer that you not directly criticize other members here. But, your right, it's probably not wise to criticize GM repeatedly either. BEST has always been a measurement for success and sales=success. But I can see your point; I mean, after all Toyota's cars certainly aren't always the BEST or most competitive in their classes but they sell very well. Nope, but are they the BEST at what they do and subsequently the most successful? Absolutely. Yeah, because I'VE never been critical of GM or anything... And most of the one-liner-criticism pushed at GM here ISN'T constructive, it's just said to piss people like me and 68 off because we're actually individuals who don't chant along with the rest of the crowd. I think they pegged the 3 series fine wth the CTS and GTO. But, I agree to an extent... GM seems to mismanage it's resources badly... Kappa is an excellent example. They had the opportunity of a lifetime and relegated it to a niche.

LOL... Yep, because that's ALL they sell... And, after all Toyota doesn't sell ANY cars to fleets now do they? You ask for competitive mid sizers. Impala (Probably the best) Lacrosse (Not a bad car) Grand Prix GXP G6 (Plenty of people seem to like it, especially YOUNG people) Aura ('nuff said) As far as them toting the Toyota horn.... It's par for the course, for they are god afterall. Oh is it now?!?!?! then why are the headlines hyping Toyota as the best car company because of their sales and surpassing GM. Sales=success, THAT's what we're in business for. I just love naive import lovers... No matter WHAT GM does, they're never 'good enough' or 'successful' eventhough in reality, they're the most successful automaker known to man. then these import lovers like to come on GM boards and tell us how we're "completely retarded" for expressing our opinions on subjective measures anyway. Yes they do... By in large sales success=more money=better. the only reason that isn't evident with Detroit right now is because of their fixed costs. Which is different from the reality of the situation in what way?

And how i this different from GM again?!?!? GM will have 3 volume models (The affore mentioned Pontiac, Buick and Chevrolet) Which, BTW from what I've heard, have NOT been officially greenlighted. Oh, and... We all know why the GTO is not selling as well as it could be and it isn't because the market isn't there. It's not a failure either, just not what it should've been. Umm... Okay... Heard of the 303 hp Impala SS and Grand Prix GXP by chance there Flint? Ummm, yeah.. The market changes over time. It wouldn't be any more cut throat than the rest of the industry.. I'm sick of these 'journalists' who think GM and the other big whatevers should just give up and back peddle... Well, let's reduce production... Let's phase out a division... Let's not make this car or that truck... You know you'll never succeed anyway. That's the PROBLEM with Detroit, they don't TRY HARD ENOUGH.

Yes. The interior isn't thaat stylish. But it isn't shoddy or 'a simulation' either. I went to Target today and read this article... Overall, it wasn't a bad piece actually. Had a lot of good things to say.. RE: A few of the comments: "The simulated interior" I think this might've ACTUALLY been a reference to Buick's of yore since the author keeps alluding to "4 holers" "The 90's Camry cliche profile" Oh, doe the author mean the same profile that is shared by both the Accord and Altima, two of Japan Inc.'s finest. (Which are identical rip offs of each other anyway) Or the same 'general' shape shared by ALL cars these days? "The torque-less N*" I love how the author says the car doesn't have torque steer because it's torque-less, then on the very same page in a sidebar one of the counterpoints COMPLAINS about the torque steer that the car has... NICE! Proves how SUBJECTIVE the facts are these days... Did the counterpoint even drive the car? Or vice versa? Overall though I thin k the point of the article was right... The Lucerne, while nice, will not be what saves Buick. It'll help, but not save. But, that said, I did like the fact that at the end of the article they mentioned the unusual amount of attention the Lucerne was getting... GM, the Lucerne HAS gotten the attention of the market, Much like an emcee or opening act does with an audience. NOW we need a follow up star or performance to make people buy into the thought and save the division.. Enclave anyone?!?!?! LMAO!!! Too bad it's selling so well though (It's a Toyota--go figure) P.S. I alsso think Detroit is gaining ground in the war... After reading the back fires this month about the Fusion comparison, it was refreshing to see readers taking C&D to the cleaners for their bias (Just like in the Solstice/MX-5 letter too) Maybe the average reaader IS in fact smarter than I think they are AND in fact caan see through the bias... Maybe Detroit has hope afterall if they continue to execute products as well as the most recent ones.... NAH.... I'll keep my morbid, pessimistic outlook for now.

This just proves that ANY BRAND will still be successful if given the right product! You hear that GM??!?! Hear that Ford?!?!?!? GM needs to replicate the Solstice at every division and en mass.

I don't understand where all this conspiracy theory junk comes from... No one has EVER mentioned a conspiracy... What I have suggested though is a predisposed psychological attitude AGAINST GM and FOR Japan Inc that has compounded over the years and thus CREATES bias in the media... It's simple psychology that I will explain if anyone wants a boring lecture. It's the same basic concept as being prejudice against a certain race in favor of another. Okay, because years of DRIVING the economy, then saving it's ass again in 2001 and years of OVER PAYING thousands of workers and years of paying HUGE pensions and being the nations LARGEST medicare provider is "NEGATIVELY" affecting lives... Yet, as usual, NONE of that matters... It's the NEGATIVE that we must focus on with GM. Having ONE $h!ty GM car PALES in comparison... GM has done MUCH for this country, and what does it get in return? Sh*t like this CONSTANTLY in the media and a public that turns it's nose up and won't even consider a GM vehicle... I swear, if I were in charge, I'd move GM to China and say TO HELL with this country.

Both are to blame. First of all, they certainly aren't cutting GM any slack. Secondly, a lot of the articles dealing with Chapter 11 are dealing with "what if" scenarios and third, a lot of the "news" is effectively "gossip" or axe grinding ESPECIALLY when it comes to Detroit. First; I'd like to see proof of this... Secondly, it doesn't matter. The point was that January brought forth POSITIVE movement and POSITIVE news that, as I pointed out, has been killed dead in it's tracks as fast as the collective media could kill it. How is any of this relevant? Stock price, potential sales, public perception, etc... Could the media have NOT reported on the January numbers more? Why are they universally ignored??? Could it be for the reason you stated? Maybe. Could it be because a lot of the media has a grudge against Detroit succeeding? Probably. Or could it be because the "analysts" and media COMPLETELY and TOTALLY missed the mark and don't want the embarassment of actually ADMITTING that they can't predict the future? MOST LIKELY It is... The media is writing it's last rights as we speak. (a.k.a. The epic articles like this that paint GM as a fallen and failed giant--even while their GLOBAL operations are accelerating and they are STILL the biggest player on the block) And as far as the wagoner comment goes.... I agree 100%. Blind speculation (Or future predicting as he is, afterall the media)

Gospel. Exactly the thing that razoredge and I addressed in another thread... The TONE is negative and it's that way intentionally. Exactly!

Not in a domestic... Funny there was never any complaint of no low end torque in the cadillac applications of this engine, or in any imports (Of course not) They're limiting the buying audience... Naturally, the Lucerne just doesn't compare with the Avalon and shouldn't even be cross shopped. Either that or they just don't want to admit that it's better. Oh... and now we're "simulating" a nice interior but it's still not there.... No worries, the media won't have to 'hold on to' their ridiculous biases too much longer. They'll have succeeded in the fight by 2006 according to Fortune. Sarcastic play on the older set that these people are 'sure' will buy this car. Nice way to lead us up to a compliment, then shock us with beligerance. LOL... Compared to a sedan that is only 10 horsepower shy of a f*ckin' Corvette V8's output, the Lucerne is only "mildly" energetic.... That's probably plenty for most people. Obviously a sarcastic nod. I can see the Camry shape... But it's not as obvious as the asian's ripping off every one elses themes... Of course, C&D "can't see that" Very funny. Funny... No one else has remotely mentioned it. It's "cliche" you know, like ALL Japan Inc. luxury cars. That's how we do it in import land.... Everytime it gets more nitpicky as to "why my import is better" Besides, they needed SOMETHING to try and keep Buick from getting traction in the market and GM from not slipping further under. Purposely by the reviewers... Of course!! It's San Francisco... They wouldn't be caught DEAD in a Buick?!?!? They'd rather spend every weekend at the dealership with a Hyundai that falls apart (Seriously, my GF's family has a Kia and it's at the shop EVERY friggin' week) BTW, isn't Buick supposed to be picking up those same people who bought 90's camry's? Seriously. They're not Pontiac.

Consumer Reports: "Contradicting ourselves in back to back sentences since 1979" Seriously, VW and quality in the same sentence... Yeah right. Then get cloth. The Impala seems like it was really held back by it's dated architecture. They bagged the Charger probably just because of it's "unsophisticated, undoubtedly americana" heritage and it's "billy bob driver's personna" Because then people would be wise to the lie... Remember, the media is trying to FIX the Koreaan's perception, not destroy and hinder it like with Detroit's. Besides, the quality rankings and CR in general were devised as a tool to be used against domestics in the first place, not imports. 3 problems with that: 1) CR is not a relaible source of info because it is a culture of subscribers who are like minded in nature and therefore have been refined to provide the same results, except MORE positive every year. 2) The (lack of) size of their sample of surveys makes the ratings irrelevant and null and void. (Can reliability of hundreds of different models of cars accurately be determined by 900,000 surveys in a market of 17 million sales?--I think not) 3) Most people do take them to be the bible of automobilia. (At least around here) Oh... You mean like how the only Detroit cars to ACTUALLY be known for poor quality and efficiency are the ones from 30 years ago... BUT, the difference is that we still suffer that "Correlation" on a daily basis, whereas the Hyundai's from 10 years ago do not.

notgonnahappen.com

Once again... The press will ruin GM. And the street gets it's way... Congratulations on that. I call bullsh*t If that were the case then the media and the street wouldn't be pushing as hard as they can to bankrupt GM. Should read: The majority will say: "They had it coming to them" "They had it coming to them"----as if GM had stepped on their best friends grave or something... Why all the ill will? Because it's GM and Detroit. Oh really?!?!?! Then someone better inform the analysts and the media so that they can stop LIEING to the public about "GM being insignificant to the economy" and "The new domesttics being our future" We ALL know that things will not turn around for 2 reasons 1) Take a look at history (Declining share for years) and consumer sentiment about the company and 2) Even if either of these did improve, GM would never get a break from the press... They've been brutally pushing GM into financial and image meltdown for 4 years now. And Rick knows this... He and his team gave up a LONG time ago IMO. They're just waiting out the storm and 'willing' it to change. Ummm....Embarassing?!?!?! Last time I checked, that still qualified as number 1 and it sure as hell puts the 17% of Ford and the 14% of Toyota to shame. Give me a break.... Now GM, being the BIGGEST automaker in the world has "embarassing" market share numbers.... This must be a universal opinion now, since I've read it in 2 or 3 articles.... I guess the media universally coordinated embarassing as "anything below 27%" Thanks to that BRILLIANT unregulated global economy... But wait?!?!? I thought those 'new domestics' were employing THOUSANDS of american workers making american parts?!?!?!?! Yep... The mob.. They just figured they'd follow the trends and hate/pile on GM just like everybody else in america. 2 words: NATIONAL SOLUTION... 2 more words: YEAH RIGHT! Couldn't have said it better myself... To me, this indicates a problem with marketing and PR. Nice.... *****Anybody remember last week when I said that the media would BOMBARD GM with negative PR to wash away the good January sales performance??? Look no further than this week for proof.*****

LOL.. Yep, that's typical GM... Drop a lot of money on something that DOESN'T EVEN SHOWCASE THE PRODUCT.

Disaster??!?! Stupid move... GM advertising is virtually non existent for these divisions anyway... Or is it that the advertising sucks so bad that it's too forgettable to notice. But, of course... That's it GM... Think SHORT term... To hell with Long term... Right? Saturn apparently has A LOT of growth potential.... Hopefully GM can execute "the new Saturn" well enough, it might just be that money that saves Buick or Pontiac's rear end. Trims? Hell of a way to revive 'damaged brands'.... Cut their ad budget... You know what that means... Hey, what a surprise... The media biting the hand that feeds it. Talk about getting screwed over. Of course... When you're dealing with 1.5 BILLION, 200 million isn't too much to worry about. Agreed 100%.... GM's problem isn't the amount of money it spends, but rather the quality and effectiveness of that money... And as far as that goes, they've been pissing away a lot of money for a very long time.

www.myspace.com/futureofgm

***Looks like the media blitz AGAINST the G6 worked well*** Not when mass media is against it. I thought 2 journalists have come on record now saying that the G6 is actually selling very well... Pontiac was up this month.... So what gives? I thought the G6 was at least holding it's ground. hence the media backlash... So lives the G6, so lives Pontiac... Key missteps aren't the HALF of it... GM screwed up the G6 from the get go. Once again... the media onslaught hadn't taken effect yet. Good. Not cool. Which **coincidentally** turned into a TIDE of bad press about GM NOT paying peoples taxes and GM "putting their performance car on a sissy show" (Stupid--yeah, I know) 1) I never knew the G6 was this successful (Although I do see a lot of young people in them here on campus) 2) Funny... GM never advertised any of this... What a surprise. That's a little comforting... And thus begins the tide of "Don't shop here" negativity... And I LOVE how they were able to throw salt in the wound by throwing the rebate comment in there too. So an assasin should kill Pontiac because of it's name? Then GM needs to follow this *bump* up with a GXP version, then they need to follow that *bump* up with an updated version... (Get the picture? Keep the momentum going) My sentiments exactly!!!

So much for Parring down Pontiac and Buick ehh....