FUTURE_OF_GM

Wow! Talk about an apples to oranges comparison! 1) How much of those sales were fleet 2) Even excluding the fleet sales, this market SURE AS HELL AIN'T last years market. And on a pure NUMBERS standpoint, there never was a party for brands such as Scion and Subaru. Yet, I don't see he calls to phase them out or the scorn from people who are supposed to support their company. Keys words bolded. GM is at fault for the shape Pontiac is in, not the divisions fans/buyers. No more unlikely than GM disappearing... I'll take my chances. The ONLY GM division strong enough to 'make it on it's own' is Chevrolet. So your saying that GM doesn't need to sell volume in order to make money? That is so fundamentally flawed that it's probably exactly how GM's management feels. Spot on... My bets are that the entire B/P/GMC channel is gone within 5 years. Probably not... The Astra had NO excuses, in fact, it was in the segmtn with the most growth. The G8 certainly has many things working against it in the market. :shrugs:

I always knew you were a loser, but I didn't know you were a sore loser. Anyway. I never said anything about Pontiac being GMs most important division. I merely posted the facts.

+1 Funny that a supposed dead car company can give us all that GM has promised for 8 years now

I guess we'll see...

Immediate mods to the Focus: MACH headlights, clear turn signals and marker lights. LED brake lights (?) New wheels, 17 inches or larger. Re-tint the windows. The Camaros (This list could go on forever, so I'll put the first things that come to mind) '73: Custom valve covers. Super T10 or some equivalent manual transmission Minor interior pieces to finish it off. 3 inch x-pipe Tinted glass windows and new regulators Custom steering wheel Hotchkis suspension kit '68: Custom valve covers. Minor interior pieces to finish it off New bumpers (re-chromed old bumpers) "SS" shift knob A 402 to eventually replace the 350 Tilt steering column of some sort Window regulators

Ford and GM NEED to work together. I've said this for years. We can no longer afford the luxury of a cross-town rivalry... It's US against thee world and we're losing.

It did... But not super hero flick gets excellent reviews... In fact, I put about as much faith in movie critics as car critics. Pretty worthless, feminine and elitist.

But it's replacement hasn't...

No way man! This is all Detroit's fault for building cars that no one wants. The suppliers have been building parts that no one wants either. (bleeding, seething sarcasm)

http://www.thegmsource.com/index.php?categ..._articleid=1086 (Can't argue with numbers)

:rotflmao: I forgot all about that. I kept thinking in the first scenes; 'are they really going to do this to me?' Sure enough, first frontal scene has it all, LOL. I also pretty much hated the sex scene between Nite Owl and Silk Spectre. It seemed a bit too trashy and awkward. Almost more of a softcore porn than anything else. (and we all know that NO ONE likes softcore )

I have nothing against Buick and I think they need more products like the Enclave and Lacrosse (2 of my favorite GM vehicles) But unless GM learns some SERIOUS marketing skills between now and 4 years from now, do you really think that the brand will be able to occupy the position it does (we saw what happened to Oldsmobile when it angered its loyal customers) successfully take up what Saturn was supposed to be (with the upcoming Regal and Astra replacement) and then occupy premium pontiac territory with a performance/RWD platform? (I say premium because Chevy will presumably take lower Pontiac sales) Factor in GMs track record on defining and marketing their divisions, then give me an honest answer. My opinion is; unless GM gets its head on straight, Pontiac will be gone by 2013 and Buick will be gone by 2014-15. (Then again, knowing GM, that might be the ultimate goal) I agree and disagree... I don't see why the BPGMC Alpha couldn't be sold as a Buick in China and then a nose grafted on (a la G8) for Pontiac here, at the very least. However, I just don't see why Buick needs 2 Epsilon sedans and an Alpha sedan that is roughly the same size. Honestly, I would LOVE to see a sexy Buick convertible or roadster on Alpha. Not to mention, that could 'test the waters' on whether or not Buick could sell to this clientele. If Buick is to work with Opel, that will not be the brands market. Opel = Saturn which is tech savy, young professionals that typically wouldn't consider GM or traditional GM cars. I couldn't agree more.

Rorschach is my new hero! I haven't read the novel yet (which most people say is much better than the movie) But the movie was nothing to sneeze at. My only complaint was that it's a bit long.

'70 Chevelle = (BOTH original 454 SS!!!) One of the primer Chevelles was destroyed (dammit) '87 GN = *Neat. (But it pisses me off that they scrapped 4 ACTUAL GNs) '73 Camaro = I used to have that same wheel and tire set up on my '73 (Grrr.. 3 destroyed) '69 Camaro = LOVE the stance on that car. One of the '83 El Caminos was destroyed, all of the '89 (4) Suburbans were destroyed '70 Charger = I think I need new pants... (2 destroyed ) '72 Gran Torino... This is a car I've grown a bit fond of. And this is the car I take major issue with. 6 were acquired, including an original 429 4 speed. And 5, including the 429, were destroyed... WTF? At least get REGULAR editions of the car to destroy... *shakes head* 1970 Plymouth Road Runner SWEEET!!! (destroyed 2 Satellite clones...) Holy cow! The Year One Bandit car is in the movie too?!?! SWEET!

"But it's J.D. Power... They take manufacturers money." will be the excuse given by all both in thee media and abroad. BTW, anyone still questioning my logic about 1) Since Ford loosed Jaguar, all of the sudden they're cool again? Even the public apparently feels that way... 10th to 1st?!?! Really??? And 2) Jaguar; another brand that american automaker have rebuilt and been forced to sell on their way to their deathbeds? All that time and money so that a new (non american) company can prosper, and Ford can rot. (Give it a year and you'll see) P.S. [barred teeth] GM, if you don't market the hell out of this, especially given Buicks new "core" status. I swear to God, I'm coming to the RenCen to demand answers in a very rude manner! [/barred teeth] It's time to start BRAGGING about your accomplishments.

Exactly... Buick will target it's audience just fine with Epsilon and Delta... They don't care about "drive wheels" and a Buick Alpha will only compete with Cadillac (Especially if it is done as well as the new Lacrosse. That interior looks better, to me, than the unit in the CTS) That, in turn will piss Cadillac off and Buick will become the next "target" Pontiac, on the other hand, was MADE for this platform. And it would HARDLY compete with Cadillac. (Chevy is no longer an issue, since Pontiac is no longer a volume brand by definition and will not have a full line) Therefore, the BPGMC dealers can be happy too, since Buick can provide "nicer" as PCS said, versions of Chevrolets Epsilon and Delta volume products (even with AWD) and Pontiac can offer "nicer" versions of the Alpha project. That satisfies everyone... Chevrolet gets core products, BPGMC gets all the product to sell AND all of their divisions well defined with excellent product. Pontiac is no longer a "volume" threat to Chevrolet or Buick. And Cadillac doesn't have anyone invading it's space in the market via price/prestige (Buick) or size and content (Pontiac) But I guess that makes too much sense for GM to comprehend. Instead, they'll cut Pontiac to nothing and duplicate Saturn's line up at Buick. And when Chevrolet is eating Buick's lunch because of the same pricing structure, they'll shake their heads and wonder why "all of the great product at Buick (that is nothing like what the brand sold for the last 20 years) isn't selling" ...SSDD... Just as an aside; as far as Cadillac goes... Maybe they/GM should get off their asses and actually position themselves/compete in the market where they are SUPPOSED to be. Then we wouldn't have to worry about their paranoid tendencies toward "lesser" middle GM divisions. Hell, after what I've heard about Caddy, it wouldn't surprise me if THEY lobbied for Oldsmobile to be killed. (Since Oldsmobile was in the process of pairing with their dealerships AND had better products overall)

That's before GM's own employees were allowed to come here and pit GM's own divisions against each other. As for me... I'm NOT better than that. Because I think GM pays attention to the blogs and Pontiac can use all the help it can get right now. Better to voice my opinion and lose respect in the eyes of some than allow something completely wrong and wasteful to happen. (Then again, that's ALWAYS been my philosophy here and in life, and that's also why I would NEVER survive at GM)

The grille isn't what I had the issue with.

Hopefully things will change and Pontiac will get something from this platform (A Solstice replacement would be natural and could be shared with Opel as a global car) I don't really care if they are one of the main models since they are a niche brand now. But it'd be stupid to exclude them from the project (B/P/GMC) should be the core brand, not Buick itself. I still don't get why Pontiac isn't a core division, but whatever, I guess. I don't see why they would've kept the division around if they were just going to close it. They could've just as easily said that they were closing Pontiac along with Hummer and Saab. And don't get me started about the "sales would fall" thing. With the way the media is reporting the (premature) death of Pontiac AND GM as a whole, sales can't fall much more. My point is; unless GM had some sort of use for Pontiac, it would've been extremely easy, in this difficult situation, to just kill the division off. So something must be there. Sure, the dealers would bitch, but GM is in too desperate of shape right now to care much about the dealers. They're certainly desperate enough to stir the pot and shake things up, if need be.

http://www.camaroz28.com/forums/showthread.php?t=675020 Interesting tidbits: From a poster that also participates here: From another poster that also participates here: Same source as the first bit:

That's not what she said...

+1

LOL... I honestly didn't think CR could get any worse... Then I read (in the latest car issue) that the Toyota Echo was second in long term quality now... I literally laughed out loud and pissed off all of the elites in the accompanying coffee shop. (yeah.. Not gonna buy what I can get free, especially if it is of no value. And BTW, the auto rags are getting pretty thin as of late... I predict the Big 3 rags will be bankrupt within 5 years ) They've been conditioned to accept this as "best in class" GM could offer a 14K gold interior and it still wouldn't have the "fit and finish" (or other subjective, bull$h! term) of the sushi wagons.

Oops, I didn't even think about that. I don't subscribe either...

The key point to let the media know it's succeeding: It's a self fulfilling prophecy.