Camino LS6

Things may be getting even worse: http://www.cheersandgears.com/index.php?sh...mp;#entry487657

Yes, which is one reason this isn't good news. China is Buick's sole reason to be, and means major profits for GM in an expanding market.

Not good.

Caddy XLR-V's Pontiac poll: http://www.cheersandgears.com/index.php?sh...mp;#entry487643

A bit lean on the details, don't you think?

I voted Chrysler, but only because you framed the question with the word "today". That choice would be the Dodge Challenger. I am actually quite unsure what will be next for me, except that lacking a miracle, it won't be from GM. That is coming from someone who has always bought GM, and was committed to a new Pontiac prior to its cancellation.

And on the Buick side of things: http://www.cheersandgears.com/index.php?showtopic=29974

C&G census results from July of 2008: http://www.cheersandgears.com/index.php?sh...1&hl=Census

Do it. In our C&G census of members' buying intentions, Pontiac was the top GM brand.

Don't rely too much on what PCS intimates, this situation is in major flux. As for my comment on the global realities for GM, read the news. GM's grip on subsidiaries like Opel is fast slipping away. That is not mere opinion - check for yourself.

It would seem that GM is hellbent on doing something with Buick in NA, so the question becomes what, exactly, should Buick be? To my mind, Buick should be elegant, high style, high comfort, high quality luxury without the burden of a performance orientation that Cadillac has to maintain. Im other words, Buick should be luxury and style without compromise. That's not to say that Buicks should not perform at a high level, just that no compromises of luxury or style be made on behalf of that performance. Cadillac has to toe that line, Buick should be free not to. Discuss.

But NA is where the problem is. And GM isn't looking like it will be very "global" when this is all over. Any way you slice it, Buick is a bit player in NA. Those are very broad and open questions. If we assume that the announced gameplan is the one that will be used, Pontiac's role would be to provide focused niche product with a performance orientation. Pontiacs that don't fit that template would be phased out while Buick ramps up its new lineup. It would have to be a segue from Pontiac volume to Buick volume. As for the money, it would seem that the taxpayers will be covering GM for some time. An expanded line from Buick is only vaporware right now, so this will take time. But I like the idea of moving Buick to volume and Pontiac to niche. It will take time and careful planning to get it right, but it could be SO right.

Sharing an opinion is hardly pointless, but allow me to respond to your points. 1) Nostalgia isn't part of the equation, except perhaps for the naming of Buick as a core brand. It is only core in the sense of its historical value and quality ratings, certainly not its contribution to GMNA's bottom line. 2) What plethora? Three doesn't make a plethora. The three are Chevy, Cadillac, and BPG and all are required for GM to continue as a viable player in North America. I say this because there is no way that GM can retain a significant portion of the BPG sales with only the weakest link: Buick. Without those sales, GM has no chance of generating enough income to ever right this ship. A GM composed of only Chevy, Cadillac, and Buick would be lucky to maintain a double digit marketshare. That's a one-way trip to nowhere when you have the sort of obligations GM has. In short, GM needs the volume currently provided by GMC and Pontiac to survive. That volume will not magically move to Chevy and Cadillac, and certainly not to a nearly invisible Buick. Could Buick be remade into a true player? Yes, of course it could - over time In the meantime, It needs the showroom draw of GMC and Pontiac just to stay in the game. BPG has major potential as a unit, but each component needs the other two to make it work. And GM needs BPG to preserve an adequate customer base to build from. The quick amputation of brands such as Saturn, Hummer, and Saab are beneficial in obvious ways. But, cutting deeper in a rash fashion would be a mortal wound. If you slowly ease one of the BPG group out, it could be done. But that would take a great deal of time to do without causing GM to bleed to death. Killing the channel and saving Buick as a scrap would be suicide.

Caught me too. Oops! The headlight thing is ok, but I've seen better.

I'd have no worries daily driving it. Except for the damage that could cause to a clean old car.

To be fair, this is a strange comparison. I can't imagine cross-shopping those two cars.

That's how I see it panning out.

You guys should have scrolled down to the side shots.. 'nother story at that point - sort of a nightmare. Not a simple headlight mod. Take another look.

OK so I finally voted in my own poll. I vote other There is so much stupidity surrounding the whole affair that I take a very pessimistic view. This is not what I think should happen, but what I think will happen. - At first GM will do exactly what it already has announced dumping Hummer, Saab, and Saturn. And making Pontiac a niche brand within BPG - Then they will spend a ton of money trying to make Buick happen again while starving Pontiac. - Then the new Buick will not do well (but the product will be world class) so they will axe Pontiac and spend more on Buick - Then Buick will still fail to gain ground (much like today's Saturn) - When Buick finally gains some traction in the market they will kill GMC and move Buick to Cadillac stores - Buick won't survive the transplant so it will be killed - Then GM will be just Chevrolet and Cadillac as its market share withers away. It will plod and fumble its way into oblivion long after the this recession has passed into memory. Bleak, I know. But it is what I expect at this point. Hope I'm very, very, wrong.

Think about the implications of what you endorse - what it would take to even attempt to do it, and then get back to me.

Oh please, Croc. You have to be joking. No one on any side of this debate thinks things should stay the "way they have always been" I'll add just one more bit of input to this tonight. You don't rip up your customer list hoping that you can create a new one.

Well put, smallchevy.

I'd call it unlikely. Cadillac protects itself pretty actively on that front. I've often thought such a store (with or without Caddy) would have been a better way to downsize GM before this crisis hit. Might have forced an earlier end to duplication and badge- engineered product too. We may never know now.

I this a trick question? BMW

That's all well and good, but there is simply no way that any GM brand other than Chevy and Cadillac can stand alone in this time and place. It is just not possible. You can't create that sort of customer base out of thin air. Hell it hasn't been possible for decades. Think about it. Make no mistake, what PCS talks about does not include stand-alone Buick stores. Ask him.