Camino LS6

Let it go DF, it's moot at this point. And the issues are larger.

Absurdity or vitriol, it's always something around here.

The treatment of certain posters has been borderline persecution around here lately and it needs to stop. Let's all remember the basic rule of not using personal attacks.

What? Is that it, FOG? I've been waiting to hear from you on this all day! :AH-HA_wink:

About where I am on this. It is better than the Terrain, for what that's worth. And the review is certainly glowing.

"many times, many ways"

I have to say I agree.

What kills me is how much time this country wastes arguing over issues like this which are "self-evident" in my opinion. Injustice is obvious when you are being honest with yourself. And banning gay marriage is an injustice no less obvious than legal segregation was. We need to grow up and admit the reality of that. It really is a no-brainer.

I'm a bit dismayed as well. So much so, in fact, that I've considered closing this thread over it. Let's ease up on the character assassination, shall we?

Riiiiight, that must be it. Hard to believe he actually says such a thing in the piece. This guy is a real prize.

A well thought out, logical, fact-based criticism of Camaro would have been at least a legitimate opinion to center an editorial around. This was none of that. It was a pure attack piece composed of baseless accusations, inaccurate hyperbole, and vitriol. The author is a stain on his profession. And the piece is a stunningly irresponsible example of journalistic misconduct.

I agree with you from end to end of this post. Too bad really, when the solution is so obvious. I still harbour a small scrap of hope, but that's all.

I found this on chirpthird, this was my response over there: Unreal. I've never seen such an unholy mix of arrogance and ignorance. What's his usual beat, the fashion industry?

From the San Francisco Journal's website sfgate.com The last muscle car Sexy as a swollen porn star on meth, twice as useless By Mark Morford, SF Gate Columnist Wednesday, April 1, 2009 Have you seen this thing? This sexy macho bloated Hot Wheels fantasia dreamgasm of a car-like drunken child's funbot crayon sketch? No? Because it appears to be a vehicle that at least some across the Big Autosphere are still secretly praying, despite the sudden overthrow of -- despite the deadly ultimatum for -- General Motors, might yet prove to be a savior. Indeed, it's a car some hope will maybe, just maybe sell like crazy and restore a tiny bit of faith in big, thick, meaty, rather inane American cars that have no real place in the new millennium, but which for some reason they keep building anyway, presumably because aging frat boys you should never, ever date think they're totally wickedcool and will therefore be willing to shell out 35 grand to own, unless they won't. Am I talking about the ugly-as-a-giant-vacuum-cleaner Chevy Volt? Am I aiming this admittedly overheated verbiage at the ruddy, useless Impala? No, I am not. I am talking about the brand new, leering, pseudo-masculine 2010 Chevrolet Camaro. What's that you say? You had no idea that Chevy was resurrecting this rolling mullet from the mausoleum of the '70s because, even after sucking up billions in bailout money, GM still doesn't really have a single fresh and forward-thinking idea, and hence the best they can do is scrape the barrel of macho nostalgia in a desperate attempt to cater to male Boomers who drink too much light beer and think Maxim is the height of masculinity and are still debating which Van Halen vocalist totally ruled? Well, they did. And it's here. And they don't. And it's David Lee Roth (of course). And it's worth noting because, well, this wild new Camaro will very likely be the last you will ever hear of U.S. automakers vying to be a kickass, world-dominating force in automotive inspiration. It is most certainly the last gasp of that overblown, yet much-beloved myth, affectionately known as the American muscle car. Is it time? Can we finally just say it outright, even as we risk invoking the wrath of every true-blooded American gearhead from here to 1965? Oh hell, let's just do it: Good riddance. Yes, this is just a little bit sad. This is a moment to pause in fond remembrance. You could say it's the end of an era, but of course it's an era that should've ended about 25 years ago. Oh well. Do not misunderstand. Muscle cars and their pony car brethren -- all those Challengers, Road Runners, Mustangs, Novas, Trans Ams, Chevelles, GTOs et al -- have a hallowed and well-deserved place in American automotive lore. Nothing, not even the full-sized SUV, exemplified the lopsided American posture better. Power over finesse, weight over grace, peel-out ability over handling, go hard over stop quick, sword over pen, meat over vegetable, trade school over college, violent death over aging gracefully. Forget for a moment that they were, by and large, dangerous, horribly built vehicles with dreadful chassis and zero engineering integrity. Doesn't matter. They were fast. They were wide. They had huge back seats perfect for impregnating various small-town teen cheerleaders. They got eight miles to the gallon and about nine to the quart of oil. They were cool. Sort of. Not anymore. Behold this weird new Camaro. It is, in sum, exactly the wrong car at exactly the wrong time with exactly the wrong attitude attached to exactly the wrong hopeless hope for a return to a rather crude automotive golden era that never really existed in the first place. Why does this car exist at all? No one seems quite sure. But it is, if you spend a moment in the various car blogs, all flavors of a dumb, guilty pleasure, hotly discussed and awaited like a giant extra-large triple-cheese quadruple-meat pizza, ever since GM introduced it as a crazy concept car back in one of those years Before All Hope Died. Early reviews? Somewhere between lukewarm and "Holy crap, this thing sucks far, far more than it should, especially the cramped, stifling interior. And the handling. And the brakes. And the build quality." Which is, as far as America cars go, about par for the course. But what about that mean-ass exterior? All the retro car dudes just love the new Camaro's snarling looks, which lie somewhere between a cool flaming dragon your high school stoner friend used to sketch on his Pee-Chee folders, and what a Vegas stripper plays whilst dancing around a pole. Upshot: It's just like the Corvette; another car for 10-year-old boys trapped in 45-year-old bodies. What, too harsh? Too negative? Not really. It's mostly a criticism borne of frustration. I truly am (or rather, was) hoping for something brilliant and inspiring to come from all that American talent. I was honestly hoping one of these companies would come up with a new idea to save all those jobs (Ford is close), to resurrect the industry and prove we can be nimble and viable and revolutionary. (Does it sound like I could be talking about my very own media/newspaper biz? The coincidence is not accidental. Similar infuriating problems plague both worlds, with solutions equally elusive). So maybe what the 2010 Camaro really is, is a fitting death knell, a kitschy cool car that takes American automobile full circle even as it circles the drain. It's the final sign that it's time to look beyond Big Auto for any sort of true revolution or evolution, toward individuals, entrepreneurs, startups, inventors and aging hippie rock stars to solve it all for us. Wait, what? Why sure. Have a glance, if you will, over at crusty ol' Neil Young, who loves his cars big and his grunge anthems bigger. Neil has already successfully converted his massive, two-ton '59 Lincoln Continental into a biodiesel/electric hybrid hellbeast of the future. His company is called LincVolt, and it's aiming for nothing less than the automotive X-Prize. Who says the future has to be all tiny and wimpy and Prius-y? Or you could check in with someone like Shai Agassi, the 40-year-old Israeli entrepreneur and CEO of Better Place, a very, very well-funded startup that aims to create a definitive, international "smart" network of electric car charging/battery swapping stations, an elegant meta-grid based around some hugely forward-thinking, Earth-friendly principles. Could it work? Damn right it could. It's already underway. Of course, if hot, futuristic car design is all you seek, if you really want inspiration and new ideas in automotive design, you skip right past American cars and look to the same place we've always looked: Europe. Here, for but one small example, is some odd French industrial/energy conglomerate called Bolloré, who hooked in with Italian design gods Pininfarina to leapfrog right over the traditional car manufacturers and, well, create the damn revolution themselves. Their invention: the B0, AKA the Bluecar, a tiny, gorgeous, all-electric thing that looks like a Ferrari smashed into a Smart car at the Apple Store. The Bluecar was originally designed as a concept car, to showcase Bolloré's fuel-cell technology. But the thing came out so well, they decided to manufacture it themselves. And so they are. You can pre-order one right now. Oh, not in the U.S., of course. We almost never get cars like this. Or more accurately, we almost never get ideas like this. What do we get? We get the Volt. We get the Camaro. We get buried. But hey, at least we look sort of cool doing it, right

This is the most moronic approach possible. There would be a shred of a chance that Pontiac and GMC could be viable without Buick, but zero chance that Buick and GMC can survive without Pontiac.

Here's another thought: What better way to judge a brand's staying power than to look at how it does in the middle of a "perfect storm" such as the present day? In the game of weathering this storm, Pontiac is proving to be GM's most resilient brand. Interesting, no? Pontiac's lost business is on a near exact par with Toyota's, a better performance than any other GM brand. Just think about that for a while.

That's hard to argue with. Terrain might have been better as a mini version of Acadia.

Funny. I feel exactly the opposite way on this. The Graphyte is far more appealing and cohensive in design to my eye than the Terrain. Except for that awful grille. That said, wouldn't Graphyte be too large for this segment?

No one seems to want to face the fact that Pontiac is a far stronger brand than Buick, Saab, Saturn, (and in some ways Cadillac). Shooting at Pontiac means you've picked the wrong target. It's just common sense. The G8 and Solstice point the way forward for Pontiac, not the G3,5,6, Vibe. Anyone notice that the G8 tripled its sales this month vs. last year? That's a fine performance under normal conditions, let alone in the biggest economic downturn in decades. Pontiac is in a perfect position to build a viable, vibrant, niche brand with high margins - give it the product and you'll be there. Wrapped within a BPG structure, this is the best way to go. Might help if Buick were a bit more appealing and aimed at garnering the volume that Pontiac is currently capable of. Otherwise, Buick is just baggage in North America. Buick needs Pontiac, and they both need GMC. Without this combination, the only sensible move is to kill them all at once.

There are much more worthy targets within GM than Pontiac. That's why the bashing by certain members ticks me off - and why it makes little sense.

Curmudgeon, eh? Perhaps. But that misses the point I was making. There are plenty of cars that I can respect soley based on their execution, this isn't one of them. For example, I respect and am impressed by the Malibu though I'd never buy one. This segment has no such product. I'm not singling out the Terrain here, it is no worse an offender than its competition.

Exactly.

Congrats,YJ. Glad your search is over.

New to me as well, BV! Nice find. I see lots of Corvair in that car...