Camino LS6

Of course they have, I'm still pissed! And I see lots of foolishness in recent decisions made by GM. But my posts are rational and logical, and I do want GM to recover. Do you now understand that I'm not advocating euthanizing Buick? That I see it as an essential element in the survival of another pair of brands I have more affinity for? Please understand that all of my posts in this thread are dead serious assessments of what I see as a solution for all of BPG. I simply cannot see 2/3 of this sales channel surviving without the other third. No matter which third that is.

Ah! Now I see how you have misunderstood what I've been saying! I am not saying that any brand (Buick and GMC) should die because another brand (Pontiac) dies. I am saying that the other brands will die if they try to survive without the third.

I would like to see Opel be sold off entirely to German interests, I think. With cooperation between Opel and GM only when it makes real sense.

Entirely possible. GM's troubles are just that huge. I think most of the confusion in this thread comes from mixing the fates of GMNA and GM as a whole. Especially in Buick's case. Without Pontiac/GMC, Buick would (at best) be relegated to a few China-built niche models in the back corner of the Cadillac store. More likely, it would be China-only.

*sigh* All progress lost. I have Not called for any such thing. Please re-read my post in question.

I agree to a point. The givens as I see them: Chevy Cadillac Buick China GM DAT Everything else is a "no" or an "if".

It's simplicity is this notion's beauty. That structure is all GM ever needed, and ever will need. I love the idea that both Buick and Pontiac could feed Cadillac, one from the luxury/comfort side, and the other from the performance side, with Cadillac as the fusion of the two.

To GMNA's bottom line it currently means nothing, that's the problem I have my doubts. I mean it. I do. I would give a Pontiac/GMC only brand structure a wisp of a chance at survival, and a Buick/GMC only brand structure no chance at all. Any way you slice it the chances are not good, but all three together make the most compelling case given the options. No one brand is the enemy, GM's mismanagement of them all is.

Agreed. And the mid is the sweet spot between volume and profit. BPG could be a major force if GM had a clue as to how to get the job done.

No denial. Buick only matters in China in any measureable way, in North America it is completely moribund as a brand. That's just fact. Think of it this way: In order for your hope of a re-invigorated Buick with lots of new offerings to happen, Pontiac has to slowly give up its volume to Buick. Kill Pontiac now and there will be no volume to carry Buick into this new role. Buick needs Pontiac to get from A to B. I'm fine with Pontiac as a niche brand within the BPG structure. In fact I see BPG as having the potential to rival Chevrolet in profitability (if not volume) if handled correctly. This is not an issue of Buick vs. Pontiac, we are well beyond that. Buick and Pontiac compliment each other quite nicely, but one must be niche and one must be volume. There is simply no way that the loyal buyers of either brand would move to the other- it just won't happen. Buick needs Pontiac, and they both need GMC. Mess with that, and all three are dead.

Only if Pontiac remains a volume brand, otherwise Buick is required. In fact, moving Buick toward volume would allow Pontiac to finally be Pontiac for a change. All or nothing is how I see it.

Yes, yes it is. If one goes, they all go. Perhaps not at first, but very soon afterward. BPG stands together, or dies.

They tend to disappear when that happens...

Wow! Do you ever have me wrong on this!

Exactly.

Well, as my dad used to say, people in hell want ice water too.

A lot of pain 'round the bend no matter the outcome.

I believe I addressed this later in my post, did you read the whole thing? At any rate, I believe that it is the same thing - only the tools and methods differ. Case in point: The creation of the mule. The point being that, we have been manipulating nature throughout our existence in an ever increasing fashion. I'd add bright red, beautiful, apples with no taste to your rose example.

Yes. A Camino with a T/A nose and tail w/rear quarters grafted on. The front works fairly well, but the rear (especially the T/A quarters) make this a Frankenmino of the worst sort.

Hmm. Well, humans have been genetically modifying plants since pre-history. It started with the very first time a human saved a few seeds from a crop that performed well. Today, almost every plant you interact with as food or in your landscape at home is a product of such human intervention. It is a double-edged sword and always has been. A given plant is selected for a certain trait or traits that are beneficial to us, unfortunately, other traits are removed from that plant's genome in the process. This has left the plant vulnerable to destruction by way of disease and susceptability to environmental conditions that the original wild stock could resist. This sort of activity, along with global transfer of plant species, has both helped humanity and harmed it . We are the creators of this reality as well as its stewards, and we have made great strides as well as terrible errors. Here are a few facts: - The American Elm is now essentially extinct because humans brought a disease across the Atlantic along with European Elms. - The same fate has befallen the American Chestnut. - Honey bees are not a native species here, yet our food supply depends on them. - The earthworms you see everywhere are also non-native. And though we consider them to be beneficial, they have fundamentally changed the continent's ecosystem. Now, we are messing with nature via the laboratory through the use of chemical and genetic engineering - and thus raising the stakes even higher along with our responsibilities. We will continue to make advances and mistakes, large and small. What appers to be one may morph into the other at any time. Perhaps nowhere else in human endeavor does the peril of unintended consequences apply more completely. If it looks like I haven't taken a side here, there is good reason for that. On this subject there is simply no room for entrenched positions - the goalposts move constantly.

Hmmm. After city-centers mandate such things and ban private autos, I can see the first headlines already after a "green" mass-transit bus crushes a few people in one of these. All the more reason that I never want to be "urban".

I never took mine apart, but I'm guessing some careful screwdriver work would do the job. Find the mount points and gently pry away from the surrounding dash?

On that note, I think I'll put it out of our misery.

That's not the point, DF. No one is even arguing over it anymore. It's a dead issue in this thread. In fact, this whole thread has outlived any useful purpose.

Yes, exactly that.