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#21

regfootball

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Posted 19 September 2006 - 04:23 PM

Many GM buyers are distressed about their mileage.

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who's that? My buddy who got an 07 Avalanche LOVES the 17-18 consistent mpg he gets. meanwhile, 2 friends with pilots get 15-17.
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#22

Drew Dowdell

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Posted 19 September 2006 - 04:53 PM

I thought the argument that the big 3 have always made about building good compact/subcompact cars in NA is that they can't make a profit on them..

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Cobalt is making money now
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#23

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Posted 19 September 2006 - 06:22 PM

Hmmmmmm......$15,000 car/$1,500 legacy/healthcare costs $30,000 car/$1,500 legacy/healhcare costs Which one will turn a profit? So, build the $15,000 car in Korea, where they make a lot less than their UAW counterparts (if for no other reason than the American $$ is stronger than Korean currency) OR build in Canada where the healthcare costs (to GM anyway) are a lot lower. The mathematics are pretty clear. Just ask Toyota.
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#24

razoredge

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Posted 19 September 2006 - 09:11 PM

I thought the argument that the big 3 have always made about building good compact/subcompact cars in NA is that they can't make a profit on them..

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I thought the problem was, they never made good compact cars. GM had an engine made in Brazil, used in compacts, had lots of problems. Then they had the "Iron Duke", not exactly whats going to get buyers away from Toyota/Nissian/Honda or VW back in the day. Thats what I was talking about, for some reason Detriot could not engineer and/or produce comparable compacts. Back when we were still driving Economy Boxes the Domestics were like junk. This is who, what, why and when we (N.America) began the huge migration to VW, Toyota, Nissan and Honda. That is the type of cars that gave Domestics their bad reputation and current perception. It was like Detroit just couldnt figure out the 4 cylinder engine. Then came the Quad 4.................looked good at first, but low and behold the bean counter cheapness showed through with head problems. Now we finally have a good 4 but its made where ? Germany or Austrailia ?

Quit crying about "legacy" costs, those people were promised that money as part of their pay package, it is their due. It was to have been invested and taken care of all these years by people "we" are supposed to trust. I dont hear anyone trying to take the Smiths or Zerillos or whoevers money away from them, and we damn sure know they didnt need it in the first place. If our government had protected its citizens as their job is paid to do, there would have been enough young workers today contributing to pension funds that this whole damn mess would not even be a wisper of a thought.

They should also be protecting us from the Doctor/Lawyer/Insurance/Drug Company organized crime too............but then who would they have left to hob nob with ?

TO answer Reg. - Mid size V6 milage is not as good as competitions.............especially in the DOHC department...................this is really going to hurt GM's main market concentration and main market potential. The people I know that are crying the most about gas prices are the people driving "trucks". One friend with a 02 Chevy truck of some sorts, sorry I really find trucks to be appliance enough to forget names and #'s. His is like a 5.3 iron LS. Anyhow hes claiming 12-14 mpg and thats rural driving and he drives so laid back and slow it drives me nuts. I never, ever trust peoples mileage claimes, never have. Over the years Ive heard some real BS about crazy mileage come out of peoples mouths. 3 bucks for every 14 miles traveled somehow looses its appeal after a spell.

Construction workers of all sorts will always buy and work new trucks, so its obvious many will still sell. I think Flint was refering to the possers. You know, all those people that one day will get out there somewhere, where they dont belong and do some real baja in' with the big bad fur by fur.............. :lol:

Edited by razoredge, 19 September 2006 - 09:12 PM.

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#25

Mr.Krinkle

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Posted 20 September 2006 - 12:03 AM

people like jerry flints livelihood depends on ripping apart detroit. thats what they do.

I Live in extreme southern Illinois, and I go across into Kentucky and get gas at the current Tuesday price of $2.15 per gallon. Always .20 cents higher in Illinois because of taxes.....


bastards! i knew they were ripping me off.
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#26

Dodgefan

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Posted 20 September 2006 - 12:22 AM

I thought the problem was, they never made good compact cars. GM had an engine made in Brazil, used in compacts, had lots of problems. Then they had the "Iron Duke", not exactly whats going to get buyers away from Toyota/Nissian/Honda or VW back in the day. Thats what I was talking about, for some reason Detriot could not engineer and/or produce comparable compacts. Back when we were still driving Economy Boxes the Domestics were like junk. This is who, what, why and when we (N.America) began the huge migration to VW, Toyota, Nissan and Honda. That is the type of cars that gave Domestics their bad reputation and current perception. It was like Detroit just couldnt figure out the 4 cylinder engine. Then came the Quad 4.................looked good at first, but low and behold the bean counter cheapness showed through with head problems. Now we finally have a good 4 but its made where ? Germany or Austrailia ?

Quit crying about "legacy" costs, those people were promised that money as part of their pay package, it is their due. It was to have been invested and taken care of all these years by people "we" are supposed to trust. I dont hear anyone trying to take the Smiths or Zerillos or whoevers money away from them, and we damn sure know they didnt need it in the first place. If our government had protected its citizens as their job is paid to do, there would have been enough young workers today contributing to pension funds that this whole damn mess would not even be a wisper of a thought.

They should also be protecting us from the Doctor/Lawyer/Insurance/Drug Company organized crime too............but then who would they have left to hob nob with ?

TO answer Reg. - Mid size V6 milage is not as good as competitions.............especially in the DOHC department...................this is really going to hurt GM's main market concentration and main market potential. The people I know that are crying the most about gas prices are the people driving "trucks". One friend with a 02 Chevy truck of some sorts, sorry I really find trucks to be appliance enough to forget names and #'s. His is like a 5.3 iron LS. Anyhow hes claiming 12-14 mpg and thats rural driving and he drives so laid back and slow it drives me nuts. I never, ever trust peoples mileage claimes, never have. Over the years Ive heard some real BS about crazy mileage come out of peoples mouths. 3 bucks for every 14 miles traveled somehow looses its appeal after a spell.

Construction workers of all sorts will always buy and work new trucks, so its obvious many will still sell. I think Flint was refering to the possers. You know, all those people that one day will get out there somewhere, where they dont belong and do some real baja in' with the big bad fur by fur.............. :lol:

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I disagree, the Shadows were not "junk" Speaking from experience, since my family still owns our 2 Shadows...an `87 2.2 Turbo and my `89 2.5. Granted mine is rusty and leaks some oil and tranny fluid (not much), but the other doesn't leak at all. Both have the original powertains, and mine even has the original exhaust system. Materials are good and IMO better than a lot of the interiors that followed them. After being in an accident, I can tell you they are well built too. Gas mileage is great in them as well. I would say 25-30 city and p to 40 on the highway.
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#27

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Posted 20 September 2006 - 01:25 AM

Premium gas is the lowest I've ever paid for it... and I've had my Millenia since mid June.
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#28

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Posted 20 September 2006 - 05:25 AM

I thought the argument that the big 3 have always made about building good compact/subcompact cars in NA is that they can't make a profit on them..

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So are you going to bet on Pittsburgh winning the SuperBowl 'cause they did last year too? Do you still wear a 'member's-only jacket'? My point is this: how relevant are historical conditions when analyzing GM's present-day situationt? Past conditions just don't equate to GM's present (or future-day) ability to make a profit on compact cars. The fact is that GM has worked to improve their plant efficiencies. They've down-sized their labor force and they've offshored more part-sourcing. They've improved their quality and durability (cutting warranty costs). Conditions today are vastly different from the Cavalier days. Final thought: just because Toyota built a quality car 10 years ago doesn't mean they will today.

Edited by cmattson, 20 September 2006 - 05:26 AM.

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#29

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Posted 20 September 2006 - 06:23 AM

I, for one, never said that everything is all candy and roses, but the picture is nowhere the bleak image that Flint and BM would have you believe. These guys, and people like them, keep saying the same old thing is happening when in fact, things are changing. With costs at GM coming under control so that small cars like the Cobalt now turning a profit, the massive rebates pretty much a thing of the past, and more good products coming out, I don't think that the downturn that GM has seen in truck sales will kill them. Heck, I've shown a couple of the guys here that were in the market for a new truck the GMT-900s and they are going to check them out. And these were guys who swore they wouldn't ever buy GM. If Toyota can sell that Tundra, GM won't have to sweat selling Sierras and Silverados.
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#30

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Posted 20 September 2006 - 07:53 AM

Dodgefan, I hate to burst your bubble, but I had a '82 Dodge Rampage with the 2.2 and then a '87 Shadow ES with the turbo - both vehicles were total crap. I bought them both new. Both had two head gaskets go: one under warranty and one that I had to pay for. I leased the Shadow and I was damn glad. Let's see what I remember: First head gasket in three months. Engine boiling over in parking lot. Rack and pinion steering in year 2. Two water pumps in 4 years. The entire ignition linkage went inside the steering column - it would take me 20 or 30 cranks of the key to start the car some times. The engine would mysteriously conk out on the highway, yet the lights, radio, etc. still worked, then it would start itself as I was desperately signalling to get off the highway. The last 6 months I had the car were the worst six months of my life. The engine would start rough, even if left sitting for only a few minutes, and would NOT move - the gas pedal would not rev the engine. It ran like it was on 2 cylinders and then, suddenly, it would rev a little on its own and run smooth as silk. I took it to 3 garages - they replaced everything. Finally, the guy at Goodyear service suggested a new computer. F@@k you, I said - the car is leased and I am not spending that kind of money on a car that is going back! So I put up with it for another few months. I swore off Chrysler after that, but I realize that I am guilty of what a lot of current import owners do - they blame Detroit for the '80s. EVERYBODY built crap in the '80s, including Toyota and Honda. (Just try and find any '80s Tercels on the road around here, yet you can find K-cars and 2nd generation Cavaliers still on the road!) The difference is that GM had the potential to piss off 5 million customers a year, Ford 3.5 million and Chrysler 2 million, while Toyota could only piss off 900k people a year! Customers have long memories and will still bitch about their '87 Pontiac 6000 while spending $140 on a service trip on their new Honda.
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#31

Drew Dowdell

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Posted 20 September 2006 - 08:15 AM

How can you tell if a Chrysler 4-cylinder is running? If there is blue smoke coming from the exhaust.
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#32

Dodgefan

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Posted 20 September 2006 - 08:22 AM

Dodgefan, I hate to burst your bubble, but I had a '82 Dodge Rampage with the 2.2 and then a '87 Shadow ES with the turbo - both vehicles were total crap.  I bought them both new.  Both had two head gaskets go: one under warranty and one that I had to pay for.
  I leased the Shadow and I was damn glad.  Let's see what I remember:
  First head gasket in three months. Engine boiling over in parking lot.
  Rack and pinion steering in year 2.  Two water pumps in 4 years.  The entire ignition linkage went inside the steering column - it would take me 20 or 30 cranks of the key to start the car some times.  The engine would mysteriously conk out on the highway, yet the lights, radio, etc. still worked, then it would start itself as I was desperately signalling to get off the highway.
  The last 6 months I had the car were the worst six months of my life.  The engine would start rough, even if left sitting for only a few minutes, and would NOT move - the gas pedal would not rev the engine.  It ran like it was on 2 cylinders and then, suddenly, it would rev a little on its own and run smooth as silk.  I took it to 3 garages - they replaced everything.  Finally, the guy at Goodyear service suggested a new computer.  F@@k you, I said - the car is leased and I am not spending that kind of money on a car that is going back!  So I put up with it for another few months.
  I swore off Chrysler after that, but I realize that I am guilty of what a lot of current import owners do - they blame Detroit for the '80s.  EVERYBODY built crap in the '80s, including Toyota and Honda.  (Just try and find any '80s Tercels on the road around here, yet you can find K-cars and 2nd generation Cavaliers still on the road!)  The difference is that GM had the potential to piss off 5 million customers a year, Ford 3.5 million and Chrysler 2 million, while Toyota could only piss off 900k people a year!  Customers have long memories and will still bitch about their '87 Pontiac 6000 while spending $140 on a service trip on their new Honda.

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I guess we were just lucky :P Granted mine's not a model for greatness anymore, but it's 17 years old with more miles than most cars of any type have. It has broken it's motor mount a few times (something inhereit to Shadows I've heard, though not once happening to the `87). Also withing the last 2 years it's had electrical problems where the dome light would not come on (broken wire...fixed). I also remember about 5 years back the headgastket was replaced. My father's a mechanic, so these things were fixed on the cheap). Last winter the break lines were replaced (New England winters are tough on cars), and the master cylinder was replaced. Currently it has no problems except that in sometimes stalls in cold weather before it awrms up, and in reverse.

I will also admit that the regualtor on the driver's door of the turbo broke a couple years ago (it has power windows), and then the passenger side did later. Still, it's even older than mine, an considering `93-`97 Corollas and Prizms have shit regulators for their manual windows, it's not that unreasonable. The Turbo also no longer works. As you may know, they didn't have intercoolers, so you had to let it idle after using the turbo a lot before turning the car off to cool the turbo...one day my mom didn't...and yeah. See the thing is that this Shadow has never had an engine problem to the best of my knowledge, and doesn't leak any fluids either.

I still think they are good little cars, since it was at least 10 years before any real problems cropped up, and with 208k and 172k (i think) respectively, the fact that they still run well is nothing to sneeze at.

Edited by Dodgefan, 20 September 2006 - 08:24 AM.

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#33

supermoto

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Posted 20 September 2006 - 03:17 PM

I thought the problem was, they never made good compact cars. GM had an engine made in Brazil, used in compacts, had lots of problems. Then they had the "Iron Duke", not exactly whats going to get buyers away from Toyota/Nissian/Honda or VW back in the day. Thats what I was talking about, for some reason Detriot could not engineer and/or produce comparable compacts. Back when we were still driving Economy Boxes the Domestics were like junk. This is who, what, why and when we (N.America) began the huge migration to VW, Toyota, Nissan and Honda. That is the type of cars that gave Domestics their bad reputation and current perception. It was like Detroit just couldnt figure out the 4 cylinder engine. Then came the Quad 4.................looked good at first, but low and behold the bean counter cheapness showed through with head problems. Now we finally have a good 4 but its made where ? Germany or Austrailia ?

Quit crying about "legacy" costs, those people were promised that money as part of their pay package, it is their due. It was to have been invested and taken care of all these years by people "we" are supposed to trust. I dont hear anyone trying to take the Smiths or Zerillos or whoevers money away from them, and we damn sure know they didnt need it in the first place. If our government had protected its citizens as their job is paid to do, there would have been enough young workers today contributing to pension funds that this whole damn mess would not even be a wisper of a thought.

They should also be protecting us from the Doctor/Lawyer/Insurance/Drug Company organized crime too............but then who would they have left to hob nob with ?

TO answer Reg. - Mid size V6 milage is not as good as competitions.............especially in the DOHC department...................this is really going to hurt GM's main market concentration and main market potential. The people I know that are crying the most about gas prices are the people driving "trucks". One friend with a 02 Chevy truck of some sorts, sorry I really find trucks to be appliance enough to forget names and #'s. His is like a 5.3 iron LS. Anyhow hes claiming 12-14 mpg and thats rural driving and he drives so laid back and slow it drives me nuts. I never, ever trust peoples mileage claimes, never have. Over the years Ive heard some real BS about crazy mileage come out of peoples mouths. 3 bucks for every 14 miles traveled somehow looses its appeal after a spell.

Construction workers of all sorts will always buy and work new trucks, so its obvious many will still sell. I think Flint was refering to the possers. You know, all those people that one day will get out there somewhere, where they dont belong and do some real baja in' with the big bad fur by fur.............. :lol:

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Had an 89 Cutlass Supreme, 2.8L V6 that got 33 mpg highway, 92 Buick, 3.3L V6 that got 32. A 97 Skylark 2.4L that got 40 highway. I've known several people with V8 Silverados that got from 18 to 21 highway. Because you know 1 person that gets 14 doesn't mean that is the norm. I've been able to beat EPA ratings on every domestic I have ever owned.

Toyota expects to sell 300k Tundras a year shortly and they don't get any better mileage than anything GM has. They will redesign the Sequoia next and it can be expected to be no better than its GM competition. How many plants in the last 10 years has Toyota built in the US to produce hybrids and subcompacts and how many are for trucks? If Flint wants to criticize GM, don't you think it would be appropriate to level the same to Toyota?
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#34

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Posted 20 September 2006 - 06:46 PM

Had an 89 Cutlass Supreme, 2.8L V6 that got 33 mpg highway, 92 Buick, 3.3L V6 that got 32. A 97 Skylark 2.4L that got 40 highway. I've known several people with V8 Silverados that got from 18 to 21 highway. Because you know 1 person that gets 14 doesn't mean that is the norm. I've been able to beat EPA ratings on every domestic I have ever owned.

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OK DOEKAY, I hate to do it but heres one of those I was talking about. I bet there was a special potion used in the tank on these puppys too ? I have had many 3.8 powered 80's & 90's GMs. 3.8s are well know, to not only have far more power than the 2.8/3.1 but also far better milage. I spent many hours on the W body forum and know all about the kind of disappointing mileage those guys were getting. My old 3.8's average 20 around & about and will give 25 highway.

I am currently driving a 90 Ciera with the 3.3 and it gets 20 mpg period. It runs perfect and has been well maintained and has great power. It gets 20 mpg period, no highway mileage used but we have plenty of open road driving, enough to let me know that this would do the same as our 3.8's on interstates which is 25. In fact its a bit worse, because the 3.3 is multi port injection which is less effecient than sequential.

I know many people that drive GM trucks and they all have told me they use some serious gas. This is just the only guy that keeps the records and does the math, using full tank to full tank, and is not the type to search for bragging rites. 40 mpg is old, light, VW Rabbit Diesel territory, dont expect to sell me on a Skylark achieving that. Hell our 3 cylinder Chevy Sprint never reached the 40 mark, high 30's was it.

Do I think Silverados can reach 18 ? Yes. 21 ? no way. What do I think the average fo by fo "truck" driver gets for average mileage ? 14. My 2wd V6 Dakota only got 15, sometimes it didnt even make that. Just the aerodynamics of a truck is the first clue, then your hauling all that weight and front axel, transfer case, tie that in with a V8.

I borrowed my buddies old 4.3 V6 GMC last fall for some wood haulin and it about killed me. 90 dollars in one day.....................it was less than 200 miles.

Maybe you had that special carburator installed ? Or maybe a Tornado intake implant ?

:scratchchin:
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#35

regfootball

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Posted 20 September 2006 - 07:16 PM

How can you tell if a Chrysler 4-cylinder is running?  If there is blue smoke coming from the exhaust.

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"I always loved that one"

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#36

Cubical-aka-Moltar

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Posted 20 September 2006 - 07:18 PM

So are you going to bet on Pittsburgh winning the SuperBowl 'cause they did last year too?  Do you still wear a 'member's-only jacket'?  My point is this: how relevant are historical conditions when analyzing GM's present-day situationt? Past conditions just don't equate to GM's present (or future-day) ability to make a profit on compact cars.  The fact is that GM has worked to improve their plant efficiencies.  They've down-sized their labor force and they've offshored more part-sourcing.  They've improved their quality and durability (cutting warranty costs).  Conditions today are vastly different from the Cavalier days.  Final thought:  just because Toyota built a quality car 10 years ago doesn't mean they will today.

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GM's past problems contributed to them getting where they are now...
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#37

Drew Dowdell

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Posted 20 September 2006 - 07:25 PM

GM's past problems contributed to them getting where they are now...

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many of GM's past problems have been addressed.


not all...but enough for the Cobalt to make money
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#38

Cubical-aka-Moltar

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Posted 20 September 2006 - 07:36 PM

many of GM's past problems have been addressed.
not all...but enough for the Cobalt to make money

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That's good to hear the Cobalt is making money..pretty good product from what I've read.
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#39

91z4me

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Posted 20 September 2006 - 10:17 PM

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#40

zhawk

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Posted 21 September 2006 - 06:52 AM

OK, Razor, my fuel log books provide plenty of counterarguments to your numbers. My 96 Metro averages 47MPG with 209K miles on it. Not sure what was wrong with your Sprint. Heck I was getting better than 30MPG in a old 89 Metro when a spark plug wire was bad and only 2 cylinders where firing correctly. My 99 Silverado averages better than 17MPG, reaching 19 if mainly driven highway miles on a tank. (mostly driven by my wife who accelerates aggressively) The truck has a 5.3L V8. My old 2000 Grand Prix GTP averaged 28MPG with mixed mileage, better than 30 (as high as 34) if driven mostly highway. Nothing special done to any of my cars, just maintained properly. We log each time we fill the tank to watch for noticeable drops in fuel mileage. I know you aren't going to trust my numbers but they are real world. I am not sure that people are crying over the legacy costs. It seems that they are only noting that these are a drag on the profitability of GMs cars. Its a fact and that's all. Now, it seems that things are coming to a point that GM can pay out the costs and still profit off their small cars. There's a huge difference between being a blind fanboy and being positive about what is going right. Just as their is the same differerence between noting where GM needs to improve and constantly bashing everything they do. I, for one, tend to be optimistic about where GM is heading. There's still a ways to go but it looks like they might be on the right path.
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