Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
76ChevyTrucker

Families

52 posts in this topic

All right boys and girls. I know that we all know that GM has built several successful families of engines. So lets see if we can name the complete family of engines both small block and big block. While you're at it, if you can, give me years of service, chronologically (sp?) preferred. Also if there are multiple generations, then go ahead and toss them in too.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's a tall order! You mean like this?:

Pontiac V-8:

1932 (251)

1955-1958 ('55: 287, '56: 317, '57: 347, '58: 370)

1959-1979 ('63-67: 326, '68-77: 350, '59-66: 389, '67-79: 400, '62-66: 421, '67-69: 428, '70-76: 455)

1977-1981 ('80-81: 265, '77-81: 301)

Edited by balthazar
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's a tall order! You mean like this?:

Pontiac V-8:

1917 (251)

1955-1958 ('55: 287, '56: 317, '57: 347, '58: 370)

1959-1979 ('63-67: 326, '68-77: 350, '59-66: 389, '67-79: 400, '62-66: 421, '67-69: 428, '70-76: 455)

1977-1981 ('80-81: 265, '77-81: 301)

But how many families is that? I was always told that all Pontiac V8s (I had never seen anything on a 1917 Oakland V8) after World War II were from the same family.
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OOps- the "'17" is a typo- I meant to type '32. Don't know what I was thinking.

I do not consider Pontiac & Oakland to be the same division, which they were not. The 250 was re-engineered/improved from the '30-31 Oakland V-8- largely the same but not interchangable. They were also cast in '32, whereas Oakland was discontinued at the end of the '31 MY.

It's 4 families as far as I am familiar with. '32 is obviously by itelf, the '55-58s are different in enough details (mounts & manifolds to name 2) to render them a separate family, and the 265/301 are low-deck variants that do not share many major components with the tall deck '59-79 family.

In fact, there is a also a re-engineering between '64 & '65, but not enough I would make a break there.

Different people are going to have slightly different definitions of what constitutes a 'family' of engines.

Edited by balthazar
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Cadillac V-16~

1930-1936 : (452)

1937-1940 : (431)

Cadillac V-12~

1930-1937 : (368)

Cadillac V-8~

1915-1925 : (314)

1926-1935 : ('26: 314, '27-35: 341)

1936-1948 : ('36: 322, '36-48: 346)

1949-1958 : ('49-55: 331, '56-58: 365)

1959-1963 : (390)

1964-1981 : ('64-67: 429, '68-74: 472, '70-76: 500, '77-79: 425, '80-81: 368)

1982-

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I do not consider Pontiac & Oakland to be the same division, which they were not.

They most certainly were the same division.
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry; restate:

They were IN the same division, but they were not THE same marque. Countless publications will state openly "...then Oakland turned into Pontiac" or "...Pontiac began as Oakland..." - not the case.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry; restate:

They were IN the same division, but they were not THE same marque. Countless publications will state openly "...then Oakland turned into Pontiac" or "...Pontiac began as Oakland..." - not the case.

Oakland launched Pontiac as a sister brand. Pontiac became so popular that it overtook, and replaced, Oakland. Oakland began as Pontiac (Buggy Company) and Pontiac (Motor Division) emerged from Oakland. Edited by Hudson
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow! this is a big question. I'll take something of a shot at Chevy, but there will no doubt be edits required.

Original Chevy small block: 265,267,283,302,305(5.0),307,327,350 (5.7),400 Manufactured in many different configurations and with many different outputs from 1955 through 2000ish.

LT1, LT4 smallblocks: basically the same as above but with enough differentiation to call them a separate family. circa 1990/91 through 1997

LT5 1990-1995 all on its own, a family of one.

The "LS" series 4.8,5.3,5.7,6.0,6.2,7.0 1997- present

Early Chevy big block: 348, 409 1958? - 1963?

Mark IV big block: 366,396,402,427,454(7.4) 1964/5 - present? (366 truck engine)

8.1 liter truck engine 1999- present?

first edit: Prodcution engines only, not crate versions.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Chevrolet's 1955 small block can trace its ascendents to the current crop of small-block V8s (and the 4.3L V6). I know most of you want to break the family up into generations, but it's the same family. Like the earlier Washington's ax reference, many of the parts may have been changed, but the history still goes back to the original.

Can anyone define multiple (I'm guessing two) Chevrolet big block families? The 8.1L is from the same family as the 454cid V8, but are they both related to the 409?

Chevrolet has atleast seven engine families since 1955. Big block (assuming it's only one family), small block, 60-degree V6, OHV four, Atlas (I'm giving this to Chevrolet even though it's corporate), inline OHV six, and the Chevette's four (wasn't this designed by Opel or some other branch of GM?). Any that I'm missing? If not, that's six.

Cadillac has had Northstar, HT (4.1, 4.5, 4.9), big block OHV V8 (is this ONE from the 1950s through the 425cid of the 1980s?). I'm sure there's one I'm missing, but that's three.

I was told that Pontiac's V8s were all one family. Then there's the Iron Duke four, the OHC six, and the Brazilian OHC four. Any more? If not, that's four.

Buick had three (?) V8 families including the aluminum engine sold to Rover. The V6 was based on one of those V8 families. Just the three?

Oldsmobile had two (?) V8 families and the Quad Four family. Again just three?

GMC had atleast one dedicated engine family in light-duty use.

Saturn had the Lost Foam 1.9L. GM has had the corporate Ecotec four, High-Feature V6, the Lotus LT5 V8, the 6.2/6.5L diesel, and the Duramax diesel.

Only counting those, GMNA has had only 27 engine families since the demise of the straight-eight. This is not counting engines produced by Isuzu (diesels and imported vehicles) or Opel (Catera and imported vehicles).

Edited by Hudson
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually Chevy would be:

Generation I Small Block

1955-1958 265

1958-1968-ish? 283

1962-1969 327

1969-1971? 302

1968-2002 350

1970-1980-ish? 400 small block

1976-2000-ish? 305

1977-1980 267

Generation II Small Block

1993-1997-ish? 5.7 LT1

1993-1997-ish? 4.3 L99 (I think)

Generation III Small Block

1997-2002 5.7 LS1

1999-up 4.8

1999-up 5.3

2003-up 6.0 (iron block)

Generation IV (I think)

2003-up 6.0 LS2

2004-up 6.2 LS3

Basically the rest of the LS series engines are what I would consider fourth generation engines

The LT5 DOHC 5.7 was its own, individual family of engine.

Big Block wise:

Generation I the "W" Engines

1958-1961? 348

1961-1965 409

1963 427

Generation II Mark IV

1965-1969 396

1970-1972 402 (although marketed as a Big Block 400 or still called a 396)

1966-1969 427

1970-2000-ish 454

not sure on years but 366

Generation III (I guess you could call it that)

2001-up 8.1 L18

I may be wrong on some of these, and if I am, y'all just correct me....

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

At minimum, there are three Chevy smallblock families.

1. all those with the 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2 firing order

2. The LT5

3. The "LS" engines

I'd make the same call on the big blocks:

1. the W engines

2. the 8.1

3. everything else

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

At minimum, there are three Chevy smallblock families.

1. all those with the 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2 firing order

2. The LT5

3. The "LS" engines

I'd make the same call on the big blocks:

1. the W engines

2. the 8.1

3. everything else

Two questions. First, why are the #1 and #3 small blocks different? Second, what makes the 8.1L not related to the 454?
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Two questions. First, why are the #1 and #3 small blocks different? Second, what makes the 8.1L not related to the 454?

#1 and #3 share no common architecture beyond the fact that both are "smallblock" V8s, even the firing orders are different. they share no common parts nor castings.

I believe that the same is true of the 8.1 vs, the 454.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oakland launched Pontiac as a sister brand. Pontiac became so popular that it overtook, and replaced, Oakland. Oakland began as Pontiac (Buggy Company) and Pontiac (Motor Division) emerged from Oakland.

Pontiac was instigated & developed at the corporate level, both to plug a price gap in the marques and to amortize Chevrolet production costs. The 'prime directive' of Pontiac was 'a six in a Chevrolet chassis'. It was paired with Oakland merely because Oakland had assembly plant space (that Pontiac used for it's first year before building it's own factory in '27). In fact, Sloan rejected a formal application for Oakland to develop it's own 'price gap car' in 1924.

Pontiac occupied a slot below where Oakland resided, as that slot was already occupied by Olds, so that there is little that points to Pontiac "replacing" the Oak. And it did not assume much, if any, hardware from Oakland either- the '32 V-8 aside. The Pontiac Six was built by Oakland's engine plant, but was primarily engineered by ex-Cadillac Chief Eng/now corporate Eng Ben Anibal... chassis was mostly Chevrolet. Oakland didn't even 'get' the car until June '25 and it was in production by Dec. There is almost no physical connection between Oak & Pont, it was overwhelmingly organizational.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

'Hudson'= >>"Chevrolet's 1955 small block can trace its ascendents to the current crop of small-block V8s (and the 4.3L V6). I know most of you want to break the family up into generations, but it's the same family."<<

So your definition of 'family' is; piston configuration = an engine family? Is a Chevrolet V-8 and an Olds V-8 in the same family, too?

I disagree. IMO, anytime a near- or total re-engineering of an engine is undertaken, and the result is a majority of dimensions & parts are no longer interchangable, that's a new family, even within the same piston configuration.

>>"Cadillac has had Northstar, HT (4.1, 4.5, 4.9), big block OHV V8 (is this ONE from the 1950s through the 425cid of the 1980s?). I'm sure there's one I'm missing, but that's three."<<

A division cannot have a big block unless it also concurrently has a small block, therefore Cadillac has had neither. 425 ended in '79. But there were complete redesigns in '49 and '63... making 4 V-8s since WWII, plus those I listed above.

These different familes share almost nothing: the '63 shared only heads, rods & valves, NOTHING else with the '64 & up. Dimensions & specs were all changed, even the positioning of accessories. The '64 engine is almost as different as an Olds motor.

>>"I was told that Pontiac's V8s were all one family."<<

You were told differently here, no?

>>"Buick had three (?) V8 families including the aluminum engine sold to Rover. The V6 was based on one of those V8 families. Just the three?"<<

Buick had the 'Nailhead' V-8, the 215, and small- & big-block V-8s. That's 4 there. V-6 was based on the 215 but what is going to interchange between the 2; pistons & rods maybe? This has to be yet another family.

I'm not even going to touch Chevy- too much info to go thru, but right off the bat there's the Corvair flat 6, I believe a 90-degree V-6, and numerous 4s from earlier on. I do not believe W-head BBs (348, 366, etc) should be lumped in with the others.

>>"Only counting those, GMNA has had only 27 engine families since the demise of the straight-eight."<<

What would Buick dropping the I-8 after '53 have to do with Cadillac having V-8s since '15?

Am I wrong to sense a degree of purposeful... minimizing here?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

>>"I was told that Pontiac's V8s were all one family."<<

You were told differently here, no?

I was told by people I consider to be experts on Pontiac engines.

>>"Buick had three (?) V8 families including the aluminum engine sold to Rover. The V6 was based on one of those V8 families. Just the three?"<<

Buick had the 'Nailhead' V-8, the 215, and small- & big-block V-8s. That's 4 there. V-6 was based on the 215 but what is going to interchange between the 2; pistons & rods maybe? This has to be yet another family.

I'm being accused of "a degree of purposeful... minimizing" and yet you're describing one engine based on another but stating that it is its own family? One engine heavily based on the design of another (like the 215 and the 90-degree V6) puts the two into the same family.

I'm not even going to touch Chevy- too much info to go thru, but right off the bat there's the Corvair flat 6, I believe a 90-degree V-6, and numerous 4s from earlier on. I do not believe W-head BBs (348, 366, etc) should be lumped in with the others.

Yes, I missed the Corvair engine. And the 90-degree V6s (3.8L and 4.3L) are based on the small block family; they're not stand alone engine families.

>>"Only counting those, GMNA has had only 27 engine families since the demise of the straight-eight."<<

What would Buick dropping the I-8 after '53 have to do with Cadillac having V-8s since '15?

Absolutely nothing. I was counting backwards from the present day and I only went back as far as 1955 when the last straight-eights were built.

Am I wrong to sense a degree of purposeful... minimizing here?

Absolutely not. What would I have to gain? I'm just going on the various sources that I have access to in order to put these engines into families of related engines. If I were trying to go out of my way to "minimize" the list, I would have combined the Cadillac/Oldsmobile OHV V8 and the Chevrolet Small Block since Ed Cole designed the Chevrolet engines based on Cadillac/Oldsmobile design....they share only a basic origin but no parts.

As you folks have pointed out, we have a difference of opinion here. My definition of "family" falls into the same industry-wide definitional groups like "platform." Sure, you can change a lot, but as long as it's evolutionary (not a ground up redesign) it's still part of the same family.

From talking to experts, I've come up with a list. I wish I could post the Excel file of it, but I'll have to summarize it.

Since about 1930 (names are my names based on the information I've found):

Buick has had five engine families: Straight Eight, Nailhead V8, "Aluminum V8" (which includes the iron block V6), Small V8, and Large V8

Cadillac has had nine engine families: Type 51, Series 341, Monobloc, OHV, OHV-2, HT, Premium V, Series 452, and Series 90

Chevrolet has had 13 engine families (although I'm trying to track down the Chevette's origins): 171, 153, Vega 2.3, OHV Four, 60-degree, Straight Six-1, Straight Six-2, Stovebolt, Flat Six, Small Block, Big Block-1, and Big Block-2

GMC has had two engine families: Straight Six and V6

LaSalle has had one engine family: Eight

Oldsmobile has had three engine families: Quad 4, 257, and V8

Pontiac has had six engine families: Iron Duke, Split Head, Flat Head Six, Straight Six, Eight, and V8

Saturn has had one engine family: 1.9L

Corporate engine families include: Ecotec, Atlas, and High Feature

Detroit Diesel added one: 6.2/6.5

DMAX added one: Duramax

Lotus added one: LT5

That's 46 engine families since about 1930. This does not include Saab, Opel, and Vauxhall engine families nor any of the Asian engines that were built with GM, for GM, or while GM owned part/all of an Asian manufacturer. This does not include any engines designed only for medium- or heavy-duty trucks or off-highway engines.

Edited by Hudson
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You are off by at least one, there is absolutely no way that the LS smallblocks have anything to do with the previous smallblock - they are a clean sheet design.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You are off by at least one, there is absolutely no way that the LS smallblocks have anything to do with the previous smallblock - they are a clean sheet design.

They're not entirely ground up engines. They are a radical revamp of the small block, though.
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They're not entirely ground up engines. They are a radical revamp of the small block, though.

The two don't share any common parts nor dimensions - I can't see how you could call them the same family.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The two don't share any common parts nor dimensions - I can't see how you could call them the same family.

Because they do share some dimensions...bore centers for one.
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Because they do share some dimensions...bore centers for one.

That's beyond thin - it could hold true for another manufacturer's engine.

No external dimensions are shared, materials, castings, and even the firing order are different. Beyond being V8s, there is no commonality - even though each type had a 5.7 liter displacement, even that isn't really the same. The original smallblock 5.7 displaces 350 CI, whereas the LS1 displaces 346 CI.

Apples and oranges.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's beyond thin - it could hold true for another manufacturer's engine.

No external dimensions are shared, materials, castings, and even the firing order are different. Beyond being V8s, there is no commonality - even though each type had a 5.7 liter displacement, even that isn't really the same. The original smallblock 5.7 displaces 350 CI, whereas the LS1 displaces 346 CI.

Apples and oranges.

It's not "apples and oranges"...but we'll agree to disagree on this one.

Anything else from the list we can debate?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sure!!

>>"Oldsmobile has had three engine families: Quad 4, 257, and V8"<<

Olds had both small- & big-blocks (these counted for Chevy), plus where's the I-6 and I-8 ?? Early 1-cyl, 4-cyls, 6-cyls?? Only 3 engines in 104 years ???

>>"Pontiac has had six engine families: Iron Duke, Split Head, Flat Head Six, Straight Six, Eight, and V8"<<

No Indy ('slant') 4 ?? '32 V-8 denied?

>>"Cadillac has had nine engine families: "<<

No 1-cyl or 4-cyl ??

In researching this matter, undoubtedly years, displacements, names and/or codes should be impossible to miss. Why not use them?

For example "Cadillac: Series 452, and Series 90" is strange : Series 90 is a model line, which overlaps the 2 V-16s ('30-36, '37-40) -- Series 90 runs from '36-40. "Series 452" likewise is the model line, but that ended before the 1st gen V-16 did, in 1935. In other words, the 1st gen V-16 was in both the Series 452 & the Series 90 - confusing. The manner in which I listed them is far more comprehensive. I would tend to lend more credibility to a more detailed list, than a vague, incomplete one, but perhaps I'm too 'involved'.

Chevy LS engines were described repeatedly in the media as 'clean-sheet' designs. If an LS and the prior small block are in the same 'family' merely due to bore spacing, then just dump all other GM V-8s with 1 shared critical dimension in the same sack, too; they share just as much with the prior SBC. Why let intangibles such as division of origin override mass tangible differences- it's all the same corporation.

There were also a number of early divisions with proprietory engines and I do not agree with omitting the HD engines either... bottom line: there cannot be a proclaimed GMNA total without a LOT more digging.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Your content will need to be approved by a moderator

Guest
You are commenting as a guest. If you have an account, please sign in.
Reply to this topic...

×   You have pasted content with formatting.   Remove formatting

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0



  • Who's Online (See full list)

    There are no registered users currently online

  • Who's Chatting

    There are no users currently in the chat room