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Volt: Limited Production in 1st year

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http://www.leftlanenews.com/chevy-volt-hyb...first-year.html

As I've said before....more Volt shuck n jive to come....$25k, no, make that $35k...

That's why you don't put experimental vehicles in current ads--it raises unrealistic expectations.

This also goes back to your post and my reply in the other thread about the Volt needing to be here TODAY (if not yesterday.)

In another thread, I talked tonight about GM's serious lack of foresight in the marketplace and the damage that has done to the perception of GM as a leading manufacturer in this industry (citing the introduction of GM-10s....as coupes ONLY....2 years after Ford brought us the Taurus, and Camry and Accord sedans gaining quickly in popularity.)

GM has also been slow to react to the whole hybrid debacle....to it's serious detriment. I can tell you....from experience....in their usual arrogance, GM totally dismissed Toyota when Toyota introduced the first Prius....and now it's Toyota laughing their way to the bank.....and it's Toyota being worshipped by all those "greenies" out there....and all those "lemmings" that have to have "the" latest and greatest.

I happen to think hybrids are WAY overrated. But one thing is for sure.....Toyota's introduction of the first Prius and it's much-more-successful second-generation HAS to be THE #1 most significant marketing coup to hit the auto industry in the last 50 years.

Toyota was the first to do it.....and now you can't escape the hybrid craze. Prius'....Civics.....Camrys.....Lexus'.....and GM STILL has yet to come to the table with a fully-competitive, full-hybird, mass market offering. (Malibu and AURA "mild" hybrids don't count.) AND we are now just seeing two-mode hybrids being introduced....in limited production....in SUVs and pickup trucks. Remember, Toyota is getting ready their third-generation Prius even as we speak.

I'll never fork over the money for a hybrid....and the gas-savings simply don't pencil. However, you can never deny the impact they have had on the marketplace and, more importantly, the impact they've had on consumers themselves!

When will GM ever show leadership at this level?

Edited by The O.C.
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And more good news. GM is now going to be buying its current batteries from Toyota!

http://www.thecarconnection.com/blog/?p=840

And this has to do what with the Volt exactly?

Not the same supplier for not the same technology.... in short, completely irrelevant

.

General Motors has opted to buy the nickel-metal hydride batteries for its new two-mode hybrid such as the Cadillac Escalade from a Panasonic-Toyota joint venture, GM officials quietly confirmed for TheCarConnection.

GM spokeswoman Deborah Silveman declined to comment on the dispute involving Cobasys of Orion Township, Michigan, the supplier of the nickel-metal-hydride batteries used for the 2008 Saturn Vue, Saturn Aura and Chevrolet Malibu hybrids that the automaker introduced last fall.

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This also goes back to your post and my reply in the other thread about the Volt needing to be here TODAY (if not yesterday.)

In another thread, I talked tonight about GM's serious lack of foresight in the marketplace and the damage that has done to the perception of GM as a leading manufacturer in this industry (citing the introduction of GM-10s....as coupes ONLY....2 years after Ford brought us the Taurus, and Camry and Accord sedans gaining quickly in popularity.)

GM has also been slow to react to the whole hybrid debacle....to it's serious detriment. I can tell you....from experience....in their usual arrogance, GM totally dismissed Toyota when Toyota introduced the first Prius....and now it's Toyota laughing their way to the bank.....and it's Toyota being worshipped by all those "greenies" out there....and all those "lemmings" that have to have "the" latest and greatest.

I happen to think hybrids are WAY overrated. But one thing is for sure.....Toyota's introduction of the first Prius and it's much-more-successful second-generation HAS to be THE #1 most significant marketing coup to hit the auto industry in the last 50 years.

Toyota was the first to do it.....and now you can't escape the hybrid craze. Prius'....Civics.....Camrys.....Lexus'.....and GM STILL has yet to come to the table with a fully-competitive, full-hybird, mass market offering. (Malibu and AURA "mild" hybrids don't count.) AND we are now just seeing two-mode hybrids being introduced....in limited production....in SUVs and pickup trucks. Remember, Toyota is getting ready their third-generation Prius even as we speak.

The next Prius will actually be the 4th generation... 1st gen was Japan only doesn't add anything to the argument, I just like pointing out when you're wrong. :P

GM effectively will be running 3 levels of hybrid technology simultaniously. Mild <Aura, Malibu>, Medium <Vue, Escalade and Tahoe two mode>, and Hot <Volt>

In terms of level of effectiveness, Toyota's technology falls somewhere between GM's Mild and GM's Medium. The next Prius is supposedly just going to be a more efficient version of the current technology. As additional Two-Modes come online and the Volt enters the arena, GM will effectively pass Toyota in the hybrid race.

I'll never fork over the money for a hybrid....and the gas-savings simply don't pencil. However, you can never deny the impact they have had on the marketplace and, more importantly, the impact they've had on consumers themselves!

When will GM ever show leadership at this level?

Sometimes there are causes greater than just money. Many people buy hybrids not to save money, anyone standing between a Prius and a Corolla can figure that out without a calculator, but they buy them to help the environment or to help reduce our dependence on foreign oil..... yet you refuse to buy a hybrid because they don't save you money <like the CTS does....>

When will you ever show leadership at this level?

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And this has to do what with the Volt exactly?

Not the same supplier for not the same technology.... in short, completely irrelevant

.

This is one of the companies working with GM on the Volt battery system as well.

Don't think it's present difficulties bodes well for that project.

Therefore, relevant...especially if the battery co. Disappears....

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GM effectively will be running 3 levels of hybrid technology simultaniously. Mild <Aura, Malibu>, Medium <Vue, Escalade and Tahoe two mode>, and Hot <Volt>

In terms of level of effectiveness, Toyota's technology falls somewhere between GM's Mild and GM's Medium. The next Prius is supposedly just going to be a more efficient version of the current technology. As additional Two-Modes come online and the Volt enters the arena, GM will effectively pass Toyota in the hybrid race.

Toyota has sold over 1.2 million hybrids; GM has sold just over 10,000. The two-modes in 2008 will add another 10K, while the future of BAS AURA/Malibu availability is uncertain due to supply issues (regular production '08s halted because of leaky battery, now this news about Cobasys). Future hybrids/plug-ins announced so far (2009 VUE Two-Mode, 2011 VUE Plug-In, 2011 Volt) are also limited production. Meanwhile Toyota, too, plans to expand their hybrid lineup.

The Volt project is real, and I'm confident GM can do it -- they have to. But I think we have to readjust our expectations after all the initial hype. Remember Volt was nothing more than a hastily-created, PowerPoint-engineered design concept at 2007 NAIAS, with theoretical specifications and, later, unsubstantiated production claims (<$30K and 60K first-year volume). Faced with reality and what GM has learned during actual development, these claims and expectations have inevitably been lowered. But the Volt will arrive nevertheless.

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This is one of the companies working with GM on the Volt battery system as well.

Don't think it's present difficulties bodes well for that project.

Therefore, relevant...especially if the battery co. Disappears....

TCC confused the 2011 VUE Plug-In with the 2011 Volt. The VUE will use A123 cells packed by Cobasys, the supplier in question.

The Volt will use two different suppliers: A123 cells (iron phosphate) packed by Continental (first pack arrived 1/31/08) and LG Chem cells (manganese oxide) packed by CPI (third pack arrived two weeks ago).

Edited by empowah
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The next Prius will actually be the 4th generation... 1st gen was Japan only doesn't add anything to the argument, I just like pointing out when you're wrong. :P

<bitch slap>

Listen Joan Collins....don't f*ck with me.....

(j/k)

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GM effectively will be running 3 levels of hybrid technology simultaniously. Mild <Aura, Malibu>, Medium <Vue, Escalade and Tahoe two mode>, and Hot <Volt>

I think this is good.....and don't get me wrong....I take nothing away from the current Malibu and AURA hybrids....other than the fact that GM is touting them as "Prius-worthy" (for lack of a better description) when they are not.

The two-modes are awesome......

GM just needs to accelerate the game. I just wish the Volt was here NOW.....now THAT would be a major slap in the face of every other carmaker out there.....and a big "slap in the face" is what GM needs right now.

(Just like.....where's the Camaro?????)

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Toyota has sold over 1.2 million hybrids; GM has sold just over 10,000. The two-modes in 2008 will add another 10K, while the future of BAS AURA/Malibu availability is uncertain due to supply issues (regular production '08s halted because of leaky battery, now this news about Cobasys). Future hybrids/plug-ins announced so far (2009 VUE Two-Mode, 2011 VUE Plug-In, 2011 Volt) are also limited production. Meanwhile Toyota, too, plans to expand their hybrid lineup.

The Volt project is real, and I'm confident GM can do it -- they have to. But I think we have to readjust our expectations after all the initial hype. Remember Volt was nothing more than a hastily-created, PowerPoint-engineered design concept at 2007 NAIAS, with theoretical specifications and, later, unsubstantiated production claims (<$30K and 60K first-year volume). Faced with reality and what GM has learned during actual development, these claims and expectations have inevitably been lowered. But the Volt will arrive nevertheless.

and global warming is a marketing campaign from a powerpoint that ended up on film, too. a sham is a sham.

Edited by regfootball
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and global warming is a marketing campaign from a powerpoint that ended up on film, too. a sham is a sham.

No, they're quite different.. scientists did the research first, then gore created his film. gm released the volt first, then proceeded to develop it.

All i'm saying is that as engineers get closer to the final product, we'll have expectations (volume and price) different from what was touted before the project started, because we now have actual development going on

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TCC confused the 2011 VUE Plug-In with the 2011 Volt. The VUE will use A123 cells packed by Cobasys, the supplier in question.

The Volt will use two different suppliers: A123 cells (iron phosphate) packed by Continental (first pack arrived 1/31/08) and LG Chem cells (manganese oxide) packed by CPI (third pack arrived two weeks ago).

Sorry for the misinformation.....I was sourcing TCC (my bad)

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All i'm saying is that as engineers get closer to the final product, we'll have expectations (volume and price) different from what was touted before the project started, because we now have actual development going on

Which is MY issue with this whole thing.

You roll out a concept with no engineering done, then you make all sorts of claims about price, volume, intro date...then GM compounds the offense with continual conflicting info about the status of the project & using the Volt in Ad campaigns...and NOW we find out that there are all sorts of challenges to overcome?

It sends a message that GM still can't shoot straight....which is the last thing they need right now.

The Two-mode is supposed to be an excellent system---the parallel development seems silly when you're projecting NA losses until '11...

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The Volt was primarily a PR stunt and on that level it seems to have succeeded (for now). GM was already making commercials before they had half a clue about the vehicle (see their recent announcements about aerodynamics and stereo power usage). Even on this board so many seemed to have no sense of what was actually going on.

Most of the misinformation has come from Lutz. I would really love to know what is going through his head when he spouts off. Does he think he is telling the truth? Does he think he has a responsibility to wait for accurate information before speaking? I have to assume that there is so much bull swirling around the Volt that it is hard to know what is fact and what is fiction. Perhaps the guesses are officially part of GM's agenda.

Speaking of which, this is a humorous interview with Dee Allen, "Bob Lutz’ communication guy". What a joke GM and the Volt have become!

http://www.gm-volt.com/2008/02/29/more-det...icing-the-volt/

How was GM to know what kind of electrical power draw a car has? I sure hope GM can figure out how to solve the massive power draw of an 8-speaker stereo.

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How was GM to know what kind of electrical power draw a car has?

I hope you're joking... :rolleyes:

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I've been thinking from the start that GM should have stayed tight-lipped on the Volt until they were closer to a viable production car. But I understand the need to get the word out, and it seems to have worked at least in part, although there is certainly some backlash.

It reminds me of Honda's V10 problem. They gave a promise of a V10 and are having trouble delivering a suitable body to house the V10. <_< They should have stayed tight lipped until they had a favorable concept vehicle design.

Look at the Honda FCX, a car considerably more challenging than the Volt. No information leaks. The concept was shown at an auto show and a mere 3 years later it is hitting the roads in full production readiness (which happens to be this summer).

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The concept was shown at an auto show and a mere 3 years later it is hitting the roads in full production readiness (which happens to be this summer).

full production readiness? How is limited production and lease only "full production readiness"? It does seem to be a well developed product, and is probably closer to full scale production than, say, the Equinox fuel cell vehicle, but I'm not sure I'd say it's there yet. How much is Honda losing on these vehicles (or would lose if they were selling them)?

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full production readiness? How is limited production and lease only "full production readiness"? It does seem to be a well developed product, and is probably closer to full scale production than, say, the Equinox fuel cell vehicle, but I'm not sure I'd say it's there yet. How much is Honda losing on these vehicles (or would lose if they were selling them)?

The reason I chose those words was to imply that the vehicle is ready for production. The costs are not entirely under control, as each one is still very expensive (didn't it take over 3-4 years before hybrids became profitable?); however, it can be built in entirety and put into the hands of a consumer as with a normal vehicle. It is fully certified and safety tested. The time between the first peep of information of the concept and cars hitting the roads in the hands of consumers (even on a small lease scale) is a little under 3 years.

Has GM announced an official release date for the Volt yet? If GM can get them out in late 2009 or very early 2010, that would be about a 3-year delay between concept and production.

And if they managed that, the biggest mistake I think they have made is making too many promises and then letting their development problems get out in the public. There's no doubt that Honda had just as much trouble building the Clarity, but you don't hear about the problems they had, because they stay very tight lipped. And they didn't make many promises as to the abilities of the car.

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And if they managed that, the biggest mistake I think they have made is making too many promises and then letting their development problems get out in the public. There's no doubt that Honda had just as much trouble building the Clarity, but you don't hear about the problems they had, because they stay very tight lipped. And they didn't make many promises as to the abilities of the car.

Although I agree with you that development should not be public about the product that is still conceptual and Honda did not make promises is a good point there are a few points you need to understand as to why GM thumped their chest.

1. Greenies view GM as an environment killer. Has a Honda dealership been destroyed by a Green Movement? Do people paint Kill Fridgeline on it? The movie who killed the electric car had GM as a villain not Honda. Like it or not GM has to sell its cars to the people who are part of these, either performing those actions by believing in what has been told. In short, GM had to convey people that it is changing perceptions.

2. All the times are speculations. Mercedes just showed off the battery with Li-Ion in a full production guise. I will not be surprised that MB, BMW and GM are working in sync for the Li-Ion technology just like the hybrid transmissions.

3. Another way to see is just like Lutz likes to play hard, by getting out in public he is forcing the company to meet or exceed the demands or get blown down and out forever. This may be a bold and brilliant strategy. Show fear in the eyes of the employees and the goods will be delivered.

4. I can understand about Chevy being boisterous in US, what about CPF's talk in Germany with Flextreme? They claimed it to be 50mpg. Do you think Europeans will believe in that BS? Considering the image Opel has, it would be a huge mistake.

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Although I agree with you that development should not be public about the product that is still conceptual and Honda did not make promises is a good point there are a few points you need to understand as to why GM thumped their chest.

1. Greenies view GM as an environment killer. Has a Honda dealership been destroyed by a Green Movement? Do people paint Kill Fridgeline on it? The movie who killed the electric car had GM as a villain not Honda. Like it or not GM has to sell its cars to the people who are part of these, either performing those actions by believing in what has been told. In short, GM had to convey people that it is changing perceptions.

2. All the times are speculations. Mercedes just showed off the battery with Li-Ion in a full production guise. I will not be surprised that MB, BMW and GM are working in sync for the Li-Ion technology just like the hybrid transmissions.

3. Another way to see is just like Lutz likes to play hard, by getting out in public he is forcing the company to meet or exceed the demands or get blown down and out forever. This may be a bold and brilliant strategy. Show fear in the eyes of the employees and the goods will be delivered.

4. I can understand about Chevy being boisterous in US, what about CPF's talk in Germany with Flextreme? They claimed it to be 50mpg. Do you think Europeans will believe in that BS? Considering the image Opel has, it would be a huge mistake.

Honda (and Toyota) certainly have it easier than GM when it comes to the greenies. I did say that I understand the need to get the word out about the Volt. It might very well have been worse for GM to have kept their lips closed until they were ready. They got the word out and received positive "green" press, which was the idea. Then there was the backlash. It was probably worth it, in my opinion, to suffer the backlash in order to have a good year of press (as opposed to if they had first shown the vehicle last January or next). Although I think they could have refrained from giving out so much information right away; but like you said it may have been a strategy and made it so they can't live it down. The release date of course is the touchiest subject, followed closely by the batteries. I don't think not giving a release date would have been an option. So it was a big gamble.

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"Under promise and over perform" are sage words for those in engineering, design and marketing. I don't know that GM had much of a choice. They had to do something to wrestle the PR agenda away from Toyota and Honda. I like the remarks about Lutz.

Remember Henry Ford's timely words,"Whether you think you can or think you can't, you will be right."

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Apparently, some other top GM management disagree with Mr. Lutz:

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/news-blog...launch-in-2010/

10 Cities may get the Volt!

Woo. That's underpromising...eh, too easy.

I would prefer a restricted launch, than for them to sell 40k countrywide and have an unforeseen problem arise and every automotive person on the planet would be blasting them for it.

But, I don't understand what is taking so long. Hybrids have been around in mass production since 1999. GM has plenty of experience with electric-only cars. The only particularly new thing about this car is the battery. You would think the combined effort of GM's engineers could solve the battery problem in less than 4 years (assuming they are even selling in mass volumes by then).

Can anyone guess, who this quote is from? (without searching it! :AH-HA_wink:)

"It is possible to mass produce a plug-in hybrid within two to three years, however I do not think that it would contribute to CO2 reduction."
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Lutz.

I agree with you about the Volt taking so long to come to market. However, the Volt wasn't really intended to go to market when it was presented. It was only the public's response once they saw it that pushed GM to make it. So we really are seeing the Volt come to production from the very begining rather than being shown the concept 2 years into it.

The saddest part about all of this isn't the Volt at all. It's the Camaro. If the Volt comes to market even close to schedule, it will have taken GM less time to put this radically new concept on the road than it took to get a rather technologically unremarkable car on an existing platform out.

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