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Teh Ricer Civic!

Ethics

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My idea of Good may be different than your idea of good. the US ideal of "good" is likely different than that of a communist state. So what makes good, good? who is to say that either of us are right? maybe we are both right, but then if we are both right then there is no "right" answer meaning we can never improve society because ethics is relative.

whats your ideas?

::edit:: for the purposes of this thread don't list anything from the Bible of "proof" of good, feel free to argue the same points as those from the bible, but you will need to come up with another way to argue them. citing the bible just tends to devolve into some flaming thread.

Edited by Teh Ricer Civic!
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Good is whatever you think it is based on your experiences, your feelings, and your code of ethics. It is different with everyone.

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I believe there is universal good. that said, I don't know what it is, but i have a good idea of what it is not. murder is not ethical, except when it is pushed that far in self defense...but then it's not really called murder at that point typically.

good ethics should be universal, ethics relies on something moral

morals are personal or group think/tradition...I think that's how i want to say it.

Jefferson quote.

if this is true, and everyone's morals are different then there are probably billions of "unorganized men" concerning ethics

edit: the quote is the one in the box on the page.... there are lots more below it.

Edited by loki
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Good is whatever you think it is based on your experiences, your feelings, and your code of ethics. It is different with everyone.

So your saying our society can never become better, because whatever our societies morals are are always correct? Being homophobic in the 50s is just as moral and being more tolerant now?

that doesn't make much sense (not that I'm saying your wrong, it just doesn't make sense to me).

I believe there is universal good. that said, I don't know what it is, but i have a good idea of what it is not. murder is not ethical, except when it is pushed that far in self defense...but then it's not really called murder at that point typically.

good ethics should be universal, ethics relies on something moral

morals are personal or group think/tradition...I think that's how i want to say it.

Jefferson quote.

if this is true, and everyone's morals are different then there are probably billions of "unorganized men" concerning ethics

edit: the quote is the one in the box on the page.... there are lots more below it.

Yes but there were ethics before Christianity, which is where most people derive their "morality" from... or at least affiliate morals with religion. And since no religion is the same, ethics can never be fully universal.

Therefore, it seems to me, that something is missing.

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Moral relativism. How I was brought up, how I was taught to believe is different than the next guy. My influences and experiences have shaped who I have become. It's a slippery slope, but who can argue about whether the the West has progressed in the past 50 or 60 years?

As the X-Files declared: the Truth is Out There. That is all I ask for in a person is integrity. Have an open mind and always seek the truth.

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I know many of you will disagree with me but; this is why religion & God is needed in a society. Without it there is no basis of what is "ethical", "moral" or otherwise.

With that said and on a side note; I've always said two things that I very much stand by;

1. If our country is not Christian / Jewish based, why do we only allow 1 wife? If we are, as some say, supposed to separate church and state, then why are we not allowing Mormons & Muslims to have their multiple wives?

2. This leads me to #2; if the gay community wants the laws changed regarding marriage, they should start with polygamy 1st. That would start the true breakdown of the above and be easier to push with the great influx of Muslims.

Here it is guys; Like it or not, our constitution and our laws are Christian / Jewish based. This gives the general direction of what we believe to be ethical or moral.

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Yes, but there is also no argument that the main reason that England (and subsequently) the United States/Canada have become the most successful societies on the planet is because of SEPARATION of Church and State.

Whenever the Church (and I am using the term loosely to connote all forms of religion) gets too involved with politics, the State inevitably fails. Mesopotamia was the cradle of civilization, but arguably the Middle East has gone downhill since the rise of Islam. The northern European states, France and others did not rise to the levels they enjoy today until the Catholic Church was reigned in. The Chinese have been bogged down in superstition/xenophobia for centuries - and have suffered for it.

The Renaissance followed the Dark Ages as many Europeans began to question authority, and by extension, the Church. Information has always been seen by religion to be evil incarnate. The printing press was originally dimly viewed by many clergy, because they feared the dissemination of new ideas.

Frankly, it disgusts me how much the Roman Catholic Church (and I don't mean to pick on them, but since they were the greatest influence over European science, politics and education for a couple millenia, they are the biggest culprits) suppressed information and progress. Being Gay, I have a particular interest because when I was in highschool, taking so-called Classical Studies, the contribution that gays and lesbians made to the Greek and Roman empires was completely ignored (except, of course, when we stumbled across poetry about the Isle of Lesbos, and the requisite snickers that brought into the classroom), yet when I continued my studies on my own I was flabbergasted by that sex and gay love played in those societies. Two thousand years of persecution ensued by the Catholic Church because various Popes decided they didn't like the 'decadence' of the Roman empire and blamed the entire thing on the fags and dykes.

America is capable of many great things, but the amount of influence that the Christian Right still enjoys over every day politics and social issues is bewildering to the rest of the world. Opposing militant Islam with militiant Christianity is not the answer. Opposing militant Islam with reasoned and sound debate is.

I view all religions with bemusement, but I have to admit that what I see going on in modern day Iraq (especially when I have met many intelligent, educated Iraqis living here) and the middle East in general shocks and angers me.

This is the 21st Century and I cannot believe we are even still debating evolution and religion.

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I know many of you will disagree with me but; this is why religion & God is needed in a society. Without it there is no basis of what is "ethical", "moral" or otherwise.

With that said and on a side note; I've always said two things that I very much stand by;

1. If our country is not Christian / Jewish based, why do we only allow 1 wife? If we are, as some say, supposed to separate church and state, then why are we not allowing Mormons & Muslims to have their multiple wives?

2. This leads me to #2; if the gay community wants the laws changed regarding marriage, they should start with polygamy 1st. That would start the true breakdown of the above and be easier to push with the great influx of Muslims.

Here it is guys; Like it or not, our constitution and our laws are Christian / Jewish based. This gives the general direction of what we believe to be ethical or moral.

I can agree mostly, but you're missing some facts, the germanic tribes / norse was quite monogomistic ( ? ), so were the mayans, so monogamy was not bound to the judeo-christian tradition...look at the kings in the bible, they had harems/concubines which is/was tradition in the region (also factor in the death rate into it too.)

evidently our goverment got into the marriage business to keep incest and cousin marriages illegal, so otherwise "legal unions" were supposed to be only religious based, ie performed in a church/mosque/synagogue...

#1..supposedly mormons don't practice polygamy anymore (may be the laws). though i'm not one so I don't know how to prove that quickly.

#2, if gays want to "marry" they should push the government out of the marriage business, and find a "church" that allows it. even though i would think no widespread church would allow that.

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I think I'm right.

of course... it would be odd if I thought I was wrong. Then why would I think what I think if I think what I think is wrong? What if I think what I think is wrong but what I think is wrong is right? Does that make me right or wrong?

Maybe I'm just not right... but I think I am. :)

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