Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
pow

C&D July '06: Ethanol Promises

Recommended Posts

The media seems hell bent on trying to "expose" the truth about ethanol.

It's a pity they didn't engage in this kind of investigative journalism when it came to Toyota's hybrids, which didn't perform as advertised.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The media seems hell bent on trying to "expose" the truth about ethanol.

It's a pity they didn't engage in this kind of investigative journalism when it came to Toyota's hybrids, which didn't perform as advertised.

Or how well the GMT 900s compare to EPA rating.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Really the article is pretty good and goes to illustrate the problem using corn derived ethanol as a replacement for gas.

Fuel economy is worse because there is less energy per pound compared to petroleum derived fuels. There is no way around that.

And corn is not the best source for ethanol. Leading experts in the energy field are promoting switch grass.

Even though most leading economist still believe there is an unlimited supply of petroleum as long as the energy companies keep exploring.

Edited by evok

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is ALWAYS going to be the advantage of being able to grow much of our fuel in our country, not get fuel from contries that genuinly hate us. There is also the economic benefit that our agriculture sector would experience. Of coarse, as long as Toyota is building the hybrid batteries in the United States, and as long as Toyota is pumping and INSANE amount of cash into the USA economy and not sending back to Japan.............oh wait..............

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You should see some of what Minnesota governor Tim "Horn of" Pawlenty says about corn derived ethanol. According to him it does everything but make your penis bigger. Of course he ignores the fact no one wants to live by an ethanol plant due to the smell and all the state funded ethanol plants he keeps putting up could easily be built with out all that tax payer money, but so it goes . . .

The governor from Colorado I believe is as big as a crack pot. He wants to convert coal in the state into diesel, bag all the C02 from the conversion process, then transport that C02 to the Middle East so it can be ejected into the Ghawar oil fields to increase head pressures.

Yup that makes a lot of sence.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Really the article is pretty good and goes to illustrate the problem using corn derived ethanol as a replacement for gas.

Fuel economy is worse because there is less energy per pound compared to petroleum derived fuels.  There is no way around that.

And corn is not the best source for ethanol.  Leading experts in the energy field are promoting switch grass.

Even though most leading economist still believe there is an unlimited supply of petroleum as long as the energy companies keep exploring.

Hence my insistence on biodiesel as the answer...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hmmmm fascinating thread. I guess Hydrogen is the

real answer after all. I for one am glad that at least

GM is not dumping a to of money into Hybrids...

investing millions inot Hybrids now is like investing

thousands in peace metals to Japan in Nov. 1941.

At least there's a slight performance benefit here

instead of the B.S. oxygenation addative.

BTW: I noticed there other day that on pumps in

Massachusetts it says all gasoline is 15 % ethanol

by volume... kind of the opposite of E85. G85? :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Corn based ethanol is the wrong way to get it. Switch grass, Sugar Cane, and Sugar beets would be the more efficient crops to get it from.

Speaking of alternative fuels. I will attempt to make my first batch of Bio-diesel this weekend :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think hydrogen is really the answer...too many issues that need to be worked out...

At the moment, the best answer is to cut consumption. The whole ethanol hype reminds me of obese people who go for the Diet Coke "because it's better for you." Too bad it's still the big-gulp size.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm personally of the belief that the gasoline age has just begun and will likely last for several hundred years to come. I don't think ethanol, hybrid cars, hydrogen, or any of this other stuff will become big players in our lifetime because internal combustion is quite economically viable as it is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually, the best answer would be to switch to a completely renewable resource, like 100% biodiesel. Unfortunately, most biodiesel blends are only 5% or 20% biodiesel...I agree on the Diet Coke analogy, though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm personally of the belief that the gasoline age has just begun and will likely last for several hundred years to come.  I don't think ethanol, hybrid cars, hydrogen, or any of this other stuff will become big players in our lifetime because internal combustion is quite economically viable as it is.

until the petrol reserves run out :rolleyes:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually, the best answer would be to switch to a completely renewable resource, like 100% biodiesel.  Unfortunately, most biodiesel blends are only 5% or 20% biodiesel...I agree on the Diet Coke analogy, though.

True... that will also help reduce consumption, as diesel engines are inherently more efficient.

Mercedes C240 on E85: 14/19 MPG

Mercedes E320 CDI on diesel: 27/37 MPG

The diesel gets nearly double the economy, despite being larger and significantly more powerful.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

until the petrol reserves run out :rolleyes:

Not going to happen for hundreds of years, if you extrapolate gasoline consumption increases and new deposits of oil being found through exploration.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

True... that will also help reduce consumption, as diesel engines are inherently more efficient.

Mercedes C240 on E85: 14/19 MPG

Mercedes E320 CDI on diesel: 27/37 MPG

The diesel gets nearly double the economy, despite being larger and significantly more powerful.

It depends upon how you define efficient. I would define efficiency as mechanical efficiency, i.e. how much work you get from an engine divided by the energy released. You're just looking at how potent the fuel is, because some fuels are inherently more potent than others.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not going to happen for hundreds of years, if you extrapolate gasoline consumption increases and new deposits of oil being found through exploration.

Assuming demand stays at the levels they are at today, you are still so wrong on this subject when compared to the opinion of the leading experts in the energy field.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A number of points to address the falsehoods in both the article and some C&Ger's opinions:

1. Corn is one of the least economical of all the potential crops to derive ethanol from.

2. Switchgrass, sugarbeats, Beer manufacturing byproduct, and sugarcane are the most economical. I've seen ratios for sugarcane ethenol in Brazil being 8:1 energy production: energy consumption.

3. Currently you will see a hit in milage running E85. This is due to the engine being tuned to run E85 as a secondary measure. If the engine were tuned for E85 as the primary fuel, the mileage difference would diminish.

4. Petrol fuels are subsidized

Let me say that again...

Petrol fuels are subsidized

Think 100 Billion for Iraq war 2.0 isn't a subsidy? How ever much for Iraq war 1.0 wasn't a subsidy?

Personally, I'd rather have the Feds kick in 51 cents a gallon towards my fuel bill if it means my partner doesn't have to go back to Iraq <he served a year there... analyzing fuel ironically>.

I'll tie a yellow ribbon 'round my Oldsmobile.

We'll protect Kuwait for daddy's V8.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You should see some of what Minnesota governor Tim "Horn of" Pawlenty says about corn derived ethanol. According to him it does everything but make your penis bigger. Of course he ignores the fact no one wants to live by an ethanol plant due to the smell and all the state funded ethanol plants he keeps putting up could easily be built with out all that tax payer money, but so it goes . . .

c'mon Joe, CAMPAIGN DOLLARS! yet the Ford plant still goes away! What Tim-o should have done is fund the development for development of a new Ranger pickup....the state of Hockey should have foot the bill for the new Ranger..he tried to lure Ford with more ethanol subsidies but in the end Ford's pockets are getting greased more by wherever is building the next Ranger.

My wife's hometown is in the process of building an ethanol plant. Folks around there think its the second coming....for sure, they can grow their own fuel for their fuel sucking chariots. Bet if I showed them the article, it'd piss many off. I've read plenty of the exact same type of stuff about ethanol before. My position on it these days is its good and bad. Its nice to diversify and give us another fuel option, but folks need to know that more about it right now is that its more a farm subsidy than anything. Folks are totally oblivious to how much $$$$ gets pumped into farm subsidies anyways so whatever.

Note the graphic in the article....FIFTY PERCENT of our oil comes from WESTERN HEMISPHERE....NOT IRAQ WE SHOULD BE SUCKING UP TO OUR CANADIAN BUDDIES AND WHOA THOSE ILLEGALS FROM MEXICO CAN NEVER BE A BAD THING!

when we can truly corral all the wind's and sun's power and turn it into electricity, that will be our best solution. Hydrogen has promise. Long term, FUSION / Nuclear will have to be discovered.

Edited by regfootball

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A number of points to address the falsehoods in both the article and some C&Ger's opinions:

1. Corn is one of the least economical of all the potential crops to derive ethanol from.

2. Switchgrass, sugarbeats, Beer manufacturing byproduct, and sugarcane are the most economical. I've seen ratios for sugarcane ethenol in Brazil being 8:1 energy production: energy consumption.

3. Currently you will see a hit in milage running E85. This is due to the engine being tuned to run E85 as a secondary measure. If the engine were tuned for E85 as the primary fuel, the mileage difference would diminish.

4. Petrol fuels are subsidized

Let me say that again...

Petrol fuels are subsidized

Think 100 Billion for Iraq war 2.0 isn't a subsidy? How ever much for Iraq war 1.0 wasn't a subsidy?

Personally, I'd rather have the Feds kick in 51 cents a gallon towards my fuel bill if it means my partner doesn't have to go back to Iraq <he served a year there... analyzing fuel ironically>.

I'll tie a yellow ribbon 'round my Oldsmobile.

We'll protect Kuwait for daddy's V8.

QFT

I read an article a while back that said that despite how big America's oil giants are, they have a difficult time competing for new gas fields with the gigantic state run oil companies of Russia, China, India, etc. So the U.S. government has to come in to secure access to oil overseas, because it can no longer be done by private sector companies alone.

And then there's the fact of how many troops we always seem to have in the Middle East, "protecting American interests". Those are all real costs on the taxpayers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Your content will need to be approved by a moderator

Guest
You are commenting as a guest. If you have an account, please sign in.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoticons maximum are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  



About us

CheersandGears.com - Founded 2001

We  Cars

Get in touch

Follow us

Recent tweets

facebook

×