Toyota News: FAILURE 2.0 Toyota Scrambling to Reboot EVs

[oldshurst442]

Hydrogen aint never happenin'

Not now.

Not in the future.

The video I just listened to that explains the waht is what on hydrogen spells a very grim look about hydrogen storage, hydrogen efficiency and the elephant in the room....the possible boom. A possible boom and aftermath wasnt even addressed in the video but it was hinted at when talking about storing it very reinforced containers and in liquid form in the Bimmer 7 Series releasing hydrogen after the car maybe left in place for 17 hours. 

Only good thing about any of that is that what everybody LOVES to talk about hydrogen. The by-product of using hydrogen as a fuel source is H2O.  

 

Oh...BTW, @ccap41.

The dude says that the average Joe Blow likes to have his vehicle travel 300 miles before refueling...

I aint trying to convince you to change your mind...

I just like to pinpoint how shyte your opinion you hold is when you say that renting EVs today from Hertz is actually a hassle as compared to an ICE car today...

Its not.  

300 miles is what ICE cars do today.  Its a standard that when engineers do their cars, they calculate the MPGs with the engine and power and weight of the vehicle and engineer the appropriate gasoline tank to achieve 300 miles.

300 mile range is the holy grail and EVs TODAY pretty much achieve that...

If you are staying at a hotel...  working or on vacation...

 

https://electriccitycorp.com/hotels-with-ev-charging/

 

But that aint your thang...discussing with inteliigence...

SEMANTIC driven bullshyte is your thang. Trolling...

Not changin' your mind.  Just proving you gots no argument.  You could continue on your path of trolling, I will continue on my path of dead ending your trolling. 

Edited October 29, 2022 by oldshurst442

[David]

On 10/29/2022 at 12:54 PM, smk4565 said:

But Tesla even with build quality issues and what are relatively high prices for their cars are still selling at an incredible rate.  The Model Y is on pace to be the number 1 selling vehicle in the world next year.

I don’t think the Model Y by any means is the best car or best value, but it’s the Model T of the EV car market.

The Equinox could be the best EV ever and it won’t matter if they can only make 40,000 per year.

Yet Tesla is already having to discount as sales have dropped off the cliff and they are now into pretty fast delivery times.

These are the Tesla wait times for every model | Tom's Guide (tomsguide.com)

Want a Model Y or 3, depending on the choices you pick in building your EV, you can get it from a week later to sometime in December. Clearly having discounts, bringing back the Tesla Loyalty Ownership program, Tesla is no long the EV auto to wait for as better options are hitting the market.

You actually have to wait if you want a Kia or Hyundai EV. Imagin that.

[ccap41]

On 10/29/2022 at 3:04 PM, oldshurst442 said:

I just like to pinpoint how shyte your opinion you hold is when you say that renting EVs today from Hertz is actually a hassle as compared to an ICE car today...

You can continue to bring this up on a weekly basis but you will not change my opinion that in 2023, it will not be more convenient for the renter to rent an EV over an ICE vehicle. 

On 10/29/2022 at 3:04 PM, oldshurst442 said:

I will continue on my path of dead ending your trolling. 

14 hours ago, David said:

You actually have to wait if you want a Kia or Hyundai EV. Imagin that.

Is that not due to production differences? There's no way Kia/Hyundai are up to a production capacity for their EVs like Tesla is. 

[ccap41]

On 10/28/2022 at 4:39 PM, surreal1272 said:

Looks at another thread and two pages of pissing matches over the use of a pick up (and subsequent irrelevancy) and thinks to himself...

If you actually read that other thread, you'd realize I was asking "why?" What makes a truck no longer a truck and now a lifestyle vehicle. I doubt you've ever heard somebody refer to a 1500 Sierra Denali as a lifestyle truck, right? 

[David]

1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

You can continue to bring this up on a weekly basis but you will not change my opinion that in 2023, it will not be more convenient for the renter to rent an EV over an ICE vehicle. 

Is that not due to production differences? There's no way Kia/Hyundai are up to a production capacity for their EVs like Tesla is. 

Yes, they have for this year maxed out capacity, increasing capacity like all auto makers are for next year. January shutdown will allow them to make some assembly line changes and get other things ready for a doubling of production. 

Good news for the U.S. as Kia and Hyundai also next year move production of their EVs to the U.S.

1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

If you actually read that other thread, you'd realize I was asking "why?" What makes a truck no longer a truck and now a lifestyle vehicle. I doubt you've ever heard somebody refer to a 1500 Sierra Denali as a lifestyle truck, right? 

I understand your work truck, truck thinking, but due to Rivian being a smart marketing company, they hit the term Lifestyle truck and now when you look at various advertising forms, that is a very popular term for all trucks that are not actually bought and used by a commercial company in the work field. 

Cost, Options and especially now the woman who are buying more trucks than guys, Lifestyle truck is the modern marketing term now.

I stand by my thinking that a Denali, AT4, etc. trims are far more a lifestyle choice by the buyers than a truck to be a truck, used as a commercial truck in a dirty muddy work site truck.

[ccap41]

20 minutes ago, David said:

Yes, they have for this year maxed out capacity, increasing capacity like all auto makers are for next year. January shutdown will allow them to make some assembly line changes and get other things ready for a doubling of production. 

Good news for the U.S. as Kia and Hyundai also next year move production of their EVs to the U.S.

Yep, that's pretty much what I would have expected. I couldn't imagine that'd be at maximum capacity per their end goals of production in the first model year of an EV. They still needed to "test the waters" before spending too much on production without the demand. It's only smart to start with lower production and ramp up via demand. 

[oldshurst442]

1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

You can continue to bring this up on a weekly basis but you will not change my opinion that in 2023, it will not be more convenient for the renter to rent an EV over an ICE vehicle. 

Im not tryin' to convince you.  Just pointin' out that whatever you are doin' is not correct.  

And it is JUST as convenient to rent an EV in 2023 than an ICE, perhaps MORE so, BECAUSE the hotel has a charger ready available to you to use.  Just as somebody has a charger at home to use, same principle here.  Vacationer goes back to hotel to juice up and have 300 mile range again in the mornin'. 

 

 

[ccap41]

Just now, oldshurst442 said:

And it is JUST as convenient to rent an EV in 2023 than an ICE, perhaps MORE so, BECAUSE the hotel has a charger ready available to you to use.  Just as somebody has a charger at home to use, same principle here.  Vacationer goes back to hotel to juice up and have 300 mile range again in the mornin'. 

I just hope there aren't more than two EV renters at said hotel. I'm sure they're out there but I've yet to see the free chargers at hotels have more than two chargers available. 

[oldshurst442]

Keep at your trolling, brah.  

You do you. 

2 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

I just hope there aren't more than two EV renters at said hotel. I'm sure they're out there but I've yet to see the free chargers at hotels have more than two chargers available. 

 

[ccap41]

2 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

You do you.

Done deal! 

[David]

46 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

I just hope there aren't more than two EV renters at said hotel. I'm sure they're out there but I've yet to see the free chargers at hotels have more than two chargers available. 

I find plenty of chargers at hotels, most seem to have 4 to 6 chargers. I know for a fact that the Best Western Hill Top Hotel in Redding California, my halfway point to visiting family in the greater LA area has 4 chargers. Seems to always be one available for charging.

[ccap41]

2 minutes ago, David said:

I find plenty of chargers at hotels, most seem to have 4 to 6 chargers. I know for a fact that the Best Western Hill Top Hotel in Redding California, my halfway point to visiting family in the greater LA area has 4 chargers. Seems to always be one available for charging.

What's funny is both pictures show only two chargers... 

Yes, they're available now because there aren't a bunch of EVs on the roads. Once they're "everywhere" and in rental fleets, 2-4 chargers won't be anything, especially because they're slow chargers. 

[David]

According to the Feds, there are 14 Level 2 / Fast DC charging stations in Redding. 

Charged Future website of public charging stations show that 3 of these stations are high power or DC fast charging stations.

This to me is no different than having to search out a gas station. The only difference is the longer time to charge up, but as I have said before, you could easily plan around going to a place, plugging in for Charging and then go to do your activity while the auto charges.

Easy Peasy!

[David]

6 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

What's funny is both pictures show only two chargers... 

Yes, they're available now because there aren't a bunch of EVs on the roads. Once they're "everywhere" and in rental fleets, 2-4 chargers won't be anything, especially because they're slow chargers. 

True, one could always overwhelm the existing chargers, but then that is the point of all new things, they grow and get more plentiful. Especially since by 2025 even the OEMs and yes this includes Tesla are expecting to start moving to solid state, so I really do not see this as an issue.

[ccap41]

10 minutes ago, David said:

True, one could always overwhelm the existing chargers, but then that is the point of all new things, they grow and get more plentiful. Especially since by 2025 even the OEMs and yes this includes Tesla are expecting to start moving to solid state, so I really do not see this as an issue.

Oh I agree that by 2025-2030 it won't be an issue. My whole argument was that when these rental EVs first become available in early 2023, it still isn't as convenient as filling a gas tank up. 

[smk4565]

22 hours ago, David said:

Yet Tesla is already having to discount as sales have dropped off the cliff and they are now into pretty fast delivery times.

These are the Tesla wait times for every model | Tom's Guide (tomsguide.com)

Want a Model Y or 3, depending on the choices you pick in building your EV, you can get it from a week later to sometime in December. Clearly having discounts, bringing back the Tesla Loyalty Ownership program, Tesla is no long the EV auto to wait for as better options are hitting the market.

You actually have to wait if you want a Kia or Hyundai EV. Imagin that.

There might be better options, but Tesla is the only one with any production scale.  You have to wait for a Hyundai or Kia because they can only make like 50,000 a year globally.   They should be making 500,000 a year, but they can't.  So all these car companies keep advertising EV's and getting people interested, then they have no supply, so people just go buy a Tesla.

[David]

8 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

There might be better options, but Tesla is the only one with any production scale.  You have to wait for a Hyundai or Kia because they can only make like 50,000 a year globally.   They should be making 500,000 a year, but they can't.  So all these car companies keep advertising EV's and getting people interested, then they have no supply, so people just go buy a Tesla.

Wrong, Tesla is not just the default everyone is buying, the discounts and quick delivery is proof of that now.

Like all new Autos, there is a ramp up period and you know this that they cannot just turn a handle and go from 50,000 to 500,000 a year.

[surreal1272]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

There might be better options, but Tesla is the only one with any production scale.  You have to wait for a Hyundai or Kia because they can only make like 50,000 a year globally.   They should be making 500,000 a year, but they can't.  So all these car companies keep advertising EV's and getting people interested, then they have no supply, so people just go buy a Tesla.

Do you just deliberately go out of your way to ignore all valid counter points and just keep saying the same garbage until everyone thinks it’s actually true? Again, how many years did it take Tesla to reach that scale (with large government subsidies, I might add)? Don’t answer because we already know how long which is the key part of the counter argument you continue to ignore. 

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, surreal1272 said:

Do you just deliberately go out of your way to ignore all valid counter points and just keep saying the same garbage until everyone thinks it’s actually true? Again, how many years did it take Tesla to reach that scale (with large government subsidies, I might add)? Don’t answer because we already know how long which is the key part of the counter argument you continue to ignore. 

It took Tesla that long because they had to build factories.  A couple years ago Tesla had 1 factory capable of 500,000 units per year.  Now they have 4 factories and more coming.  GM, Ford, Hyundai, Toyota, etc have many factories already.  GM has had the Bolt on sale for 5 years already and they are still at a 40,000 a year capacity for it with a 70,000 forecast for 2023.  That's a fairly slow ramp up, when the Bolt with a tax credit next year should be the #1 selling car in America.

[smk4565]

3 hours ago, David said:

Wrong, Tesla is not just the default everyone is buying, the discounts and quick delivery is proof of that now.

Like all new Autos, there is a ramp up period and you know this that they cannot just turn a handle and go from 50,000 to 500,000 a year.

BYD is doing quite well also in EV sales and targeting 4 million EV's in 2023.   I assume the clock is ticking for when they decide to hit the US market with low cost EV's.  The tax credit will help the domestics, but they better be ready for that too.  I get it takes time to ramp up, but if BYD is at 4 million next year, 5 million+ in 2024 when GM is tagging 400,000 in 2024, that is a lot of ramping up that GM is behind on.  And I think being a first mover is important with this EV switch.

[surreal1272]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

GM has had the Bolt on sale for 5 years already and they are still at a 40,000 a year capacity for it with a 70,000 forecast for 2023.

Dumb example since it was never intended for the kind of volume you are "demanding". It uses old tech (buy EV standards) and thus is cheaper to sell now, hence the increase there. That has ZERO connection to their Ultium products, which WILL TAKE TIME to get to higher volume sales due to the many reasons already given to you by multiple people here. Stop ignoring those facts in order to keep up this stupid crusade against a domestic make. It is just old and tiresome at this point.

[smk4565]

21 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

Dumb example since it was never intended for the kind of volume you are "demanding". It uses old tech (buy EV standards) and thus is cheaper to sell now, hence the increase there. That has ZERO connection to their Ultium products, which WILL TAKE TIME to get to higher volume sales due to the many reasons already given to you by multiple people here. Stop ignoring those facts in order to keep up this stupid crusade against a domestic make. It is just old and tiresome at this point.

I am just saying if GM wants to capitalize, they need to scale up faster than VW, Toyota or Ford do or before the Chinese cars get here.  And the same can be said for anyone else, whoever moves too late or slow will be left out.

[David]

15 hours ago, smk4565 said:

I am just saying if GM wants to capitalize, they need to scale up faster than VW, Toyota or Ford do or before the Chinese cars get here.  And the same can be said for anyone else, whoever moves too late or slow will be left out.

First, common sense, EVERYONE, EVERYONE has to ramp up battery production. BYD has had huge help from the Communist party. I DO NOT see BYD coming to the U.S. any time soon. The current auto's DO NOT meet our crash test or other safety requirements.

Even in China where VW is a leading ICE and among Non-Chinese auto companies lead that market, but even for them they are having to ramp up.

End result is while GM has secured plenty of capacity for raw materials, is currently building 4 battery cell plants, upgrading multiple assembly plants to support EVs, it takes time, just like it took Tesla a decade to get where they are now. GM will have done what Tesla did in 10 years in about 2 years' time as all the plants come online.

Even if Tesla gets their Cyber Truck POS starting to be produced, it will still take them a year to ramp up to a steady build of trucks which tesla has stated will be about 100,000 trucks at full capacity. They are working to get test mules out and even that is not running yet. Full production is expected by the end of 2023 with them recording their first quarter full production sales at the end of March 2024.

Tesla to start Cybertruck production two years late - report - Just Auto (just-auto.com)

Tesla has not stated what they consider full production but has stated it will likely follow the other models that were brought online in a plant and ramped up, so that would be 100,000 trucks at the end of 2023 and who know s how much more.

GM and FORD are officially on record with turning out a new truck every minute or less. Ford is on official record that this year they have been turning out a new truck every 52 seconds.

Ford Dearborn Truck Plant Gives Birth To An F-150 Every 52 Seconds (fordauthority.com)

Tesla will have a harder time ramping up than the Legacy OEMs will.

Toyota and pretty much any company that is behind in the EV race is going to find it harder and harder regardless of how much money they have to catch up as they slip further and further behind. Toyota has not prepped well for the EV future and so will find it harder and harder with every year they are delayed in moving to EVs.

[smk4565]

BYD will come eventually, and other Chinese cars will likely follow.  

If GM gets up to scale in 2024 and is rolling they can make a big impact.  And since Cybertruck really won't be hitting volume until 2024, if GM can build their pickups at a faster volume they can block that threat off.  And Ford can build a gas F150 every 52 seconds, but they can't make EV's at that rate.  That's why this is all up for grabs.  Whoever can make EVs that are actually affordable and not $100k sports sedans or $100k trucks, but run of the mill $35k crossovers that you can sell 400,000 a year of is going to be a big winner.

[oldshurst442]

1 minute ago, smk4565 said:

BYD will come eventually, and other Chinese cars will likely follow.  

In the US market?

Im not really following this thread.  Did I miss anything.  When has BYD decided to sell in the US market.  NHTSA has greenlit BYD EVs for the US market? 

Im confused. 

16 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

 And since Cybertruck really won't be hitting volume until 2024, if GM can build their pickups at a faster volume they can block that threat off.

Cybertruck was never a real threat.  Cybertruck was never a real attempt for a pick up truck.  Cybertruck is just eye candy. A poster vehicle for teenagers and geeky Tesla sheeple to put up in the bedrooms and their garages. 

GMC HUMMER EV does a better job at being a poster vehicle AND it being an actual legit EV product. And despite a recent but small recall, HUMMERS are being ordered like no tomorrow.

As of July 2022, General Motors had 80 000 orders.   REAL orders.

https://gmauthority.com/blog/2022/07/gm-has-80000-gmc-hummer-ev-reservations-so-far/

 

As of Oct 2022.  Hummer orders are SOLD OUT for at least 2 years.   GM has capped that number, to which I diont know what number that is.  The article below says that there is a 90 000 unit reservation.  I guess 90 000 is the break even point.  GM has capped it somewhere  and it has sold out for at least 2 years.   Im guessing that the Silvardo EV and the new GMC Sierrar Denali EV will pick up (pun intended) where the HUMMER EV leaves off, and then some, until GM gets the true EV pick-up truck replacements on line. (With a configurable beds) 

https://gmauthority.com/blog/2022/10/gmc-hummer-ev-pickup-suv-sold-out-for-at-least-two-years/

 

The Cybertruck hasnt even started production yet.  Mid 2023...    And with Musk concetrating on Twitter,  and Musk being a micro-managing moron,  despite the already delays to get the Cybertruck on line, since late 2021, there doesnt seem to be any urgency.  

Buying Twitter. Not buying Twiiter. Accusing Twitter. Laying low for two months to buying Twitter again and firing almost everybody and having some poor schmuck take photos of him working hard on....Twitter seems to be more important.

So really, you mentioning Cybertruck as some sort of GM competition sometime in 2024 was not really a discussion point.  

Cybertruck was dated when it was introduced. Only a handful of people were awestricken with it. 

That was in Nov of 2019.  

That was 3 years ago to the day almost.

It comes out now, its old news.  It will come out 2 years from now. That would be 5 years from when it was first revealed.   It will be ancient by then...