Volkswagen Teases the Next North American Member of the ID Family :Comments

[Drew Dowdell]

Wearing digital camouflage, Volkswagen showcased its first entry at the Consumer Electronics Show in over six years with the ID.7.  The fully electric sedan is built on the same MEB (Modular Electric Drive Matrix) platform as the ID.4.

For the concept’s camouflage, Volkswagen used no less than 40 layers of conducting and insulating paint, allowing large “pixels” to light up. Twenty-two areas of the vehicle can be controlled separately. The visual effect can be tied to a sound system for visualization of rhythm or programmed with QR codes.

The ID.7 matches the design language of the rest of the ID family with a minimalist aero front clip, a short front overhang, and a longer-than-typical wheelbase. Air intakes at the front guide air around the car to form an air curtain to reduce drag drastically.

The interior is said to be much roomier than a similarly sized ICE vehicle, a trait shared by the ID.4. A new HVAC system can detect when the driver is approaching the vehicle and start heating or cooling the car before the driver gets in.  “Smart Air Vents” move air dynamically to more efficiently control cabin climate. Manual control of the vents is available through the center screen or with voice commands. If the driver says, “Hello, Volkswagen, my hands are cold”, the system will activate the heated steering wheel and direct warm air toward the driver’s hands.

The ID.7 rides on a 116.9 inch wheelbase with an overall length of 195 inches. For reference, that wheelbase is about half an inch shorter than a Volkswagen Atlas or 6 inches longer than a Passat. The Passat, at 193.6 inches long, was one of the roomiest vehicles in the mid-size segment.

While full powertrain specs have not been released, Volkswagen says that on the European WLTP cycle, the ID.7 should have a range up to 700 km / 435 miles.  The WLTP cycle is notably more generous than the EPA cycle, so expect the EPA estimated range to be lower.

The ID.7 for the US market will likely be produced alongside the ID.4 in Chattanooga TN. Confirmed production for the European market will be at Volkswagen’s Emden plant. China will be a launch market as well.

No set production or sale date has been announced.

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[smk4565]

A Jetta sized EV sedan would do a lot better than this, but they probably need this car too.  Although they killed the Passat and Arteon off so how much demand is there for a biggish midsize VW sedan in the USA?  And I bet this costs double what a Passat costs.

[ccap41]

19 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

A Jetta sized EV sedan would do a lot better than this, but they probably need this car too.  Although they killed the Passat and Arteon off so how much demand is there for a biggish midsize VW sedan in the USA?  And I bet this costs double what a Passat costs.

I believe this is a global product so it doesn't necessarily have to kill it here to still be a success. 

Price will certainly be an issue for buyers. EVs just cost way too much. 

[Drew Dowdell]

30 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

A Jetta sized EV sedan would do a lot better than this.

That's what the ID.4 is for. It covers the Golf and Jetta sized crowd with a single vehicle.

30 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

And I bet this costs double what a Passat costs.

That's mainly because except for its final years, the Passat could be had for cheap. You were unlikely to find them on dealers lots, but a base base base model was right there with the Altima on price at about $22k-$23k.  So saying double of $22k is a pretty easy target to hit these days when median ICE prices are like $35k.

30 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Although they killed the Passat and Arteon off so how much demand is there for a biggish midsize VW sedan in the USA?

I continue to believe that a secondary reason sedans are dying is that they just don't have the room inside that they use to. With 22 airbags, 47 speakers, 93 way power seats, 14 cupholders in a 4.5 passenger car, and a partridge in a pear tree, you end up with mediocre interior room for a vehicle the size of my Toronado.

The ID.7 should feel like a Phaeton inside in terms of room (but unlikely in luxury materials).  It's longer than a Passat and 2 inches shorter than a Model-S, but it has a shorter hood than a Model-S.  It's going to have S P A C E.

[oldshurst442]

There are several things that peaked my interest with this car

1. 435 mile range

2. sedan to rival Tesla Model 3 and Model S. Especially the sedan part.

3. 116.9 inch wheelbase with an overall length of 195 inches. 

4. GLOBAL car.  American market. European market. Chinese and probably elsewhere in  the Asian market. Economies of scale on a global level.

5. MEB platform based.  Several EVs are built on this platform already.  Economies of scale on a platform level. 

6.  Reasons #3 & #4 makes me assume that the ID 7 will be more or less in the same price range as an equivalent ICE car.  a mid level offering and there is no reason to believe that it will be more expensive to buy than what a current Passat (sans rebates because Passat was going away) or Arteon.  But everything to believe that it WILL cost as much as ICE equivalents.     

The idea of EVs being expensive holds no longer any truth.  Lets not forget that Chevrolet's Equinox EV per Chevrolet's website will be about 30 000 for the 1LT.  With 300 mile range.   The ICE Equinox 1LT is 29 000.   

Price parity between ICE and EV for VW, GM and even perhaps Stellantis (in Europe) is 99% achieved for 2023.  

 

[smk4565]

2 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

That's what the ID.4 is for. It covers the Golf and Jetta sized crowd with a single vehicle.

That's mainly because except for its final years, the Passat could be had for cheap. You were unlikely to find them on dealers lots, but a base base base model was right there with the Altima on price at about $22k-$23k.  So saying double of $22k is a pretty easy target to hit these days when median ICE prices are like $35k.

I continue to believe that a secondary reason sedans are dying is that they just don't have the room inside that they use to. With 22 airbags, 47 speakers, 93 way power seats, 14 cupholders in a 4.5 passenger car, and a partridge in a pear tree, you end up with mediocre interior room for a vehicle the size of my Toronado.

The ID.7 should feel like a Phaeton inside in terms of room (but unlikely in luxury materials).  It's longer than a Passat and 2 inches shorter than a Model-S, but it has a shorter hood than a Model-S.  It's going to have S P A C E.

The iD4 isn't a sedan.  I wouldn't buy a crossover, my mom won't, there are still people that want a sedan, and maybe not a big one.  Agree that there is some bad space utilization in sedans, but with an EV, they should be able to make an Jetta sized EV sedan have the room of a Passat.  Even the little Chevy Bolt has E-class level leg room in the back seat.

If the Audi A6 EV is based on this, that might save them some money and make this worthwhile.

[smk4565]

4 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

There are several things that peaked my interest with this car

1. 435 mile range

2. sedan to rival Tesla Model 3 and Model S. Especially the sedan part.

3. 116.9 inch wheelbase with an overall length of 195 inches. 

4. GLOBAL car.  American market. European market. Chinese and probably elsewhere in  the Asian market. Economies of scale on a global level.

5. MEB platform based.  Several EVs are built on this platform already.  Economies of scale on a platform level. 

6.  Reasons #3 & #4 makes me assume that the ID 7 will be more or less in the same price range as an equivalent ICE car.  a mid level offering and there is no reason to believe that it will be more expensive to buy than what a current Passat (sans rebates because Passat was going away) or Arteon.  But everything to believe that it WILL cost as much as ICE equivalents.     

The idea of EVs being expensive holds no longer any truth.  Lets not forget that Chevrolet's Equinox EV per Chevrolet's website will be about 30 000 for the 1LT.  With 300 mile range.   The ICE Equinox 1LT is 29 000.   

Price parity between ICE and EV for VW, GM and even perhaps Stellantis (in Europe) is 99% achieved for 2023.  

 

435 miles on WLT, which is probably low 300s EPA.  But plenty of range I think.

I don't see the price parity yet, the VW iD4 is $12,000 more than the Tiguan.  I wouldn't be surprised if the iD7 starts over $50k.  

If GM can deliver on their "about $30,000" for the Equinox without sacrificing all quality and materials or pulling a bait and switch like the "under $40,000" F150 lightning that is now $54,000, I think it will be quite an achievement.  

[Drew Dowdell]

36 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

435 miles on WLT, which is probably low 300s EPA.  But plenty of range I think.

The difference between WLTP and EPA is not that drastic (the worst being the Porsche Taycan that drops 85 miles) and it isn’t consistently one way or the other.  Sometimes a car’s EPA beats the WLTP and sometimes WLTP beats the EPA.  If you’re looking for a long distance cruiser, you want an EV with a longer EPA range. If you’re mostly a city driver, you want a vehicle with a longer WLTP range. 

For reference, the ID.4 RWD drops 44 miles and the AWD drops 51 miles going from WLTP to EPA. 435 - 44 = 391…. Exactly the range of a Model-S Long Range Plus EPA rating. 

[oldshurst442]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

VW iD4 is $12,000 more than the Tiguan

Several reasons for that.

Ideal economies of scale have not been reached yet with this vehicle. Remember, this vehicle came out in 2020.  Its one of the first EVs to come out on the MEB platform.  Its a tad higher than the Tiguan, yes, but amortization costs are higher on this model because it is one of the first models to come out...   

Another reason is that the ID 4 is a tad more upscale model than the Tiguan. Why?  To bring in more money to finance electrification...

The ID 7 comes 3 years later after the launch of the ID 4.  VW is the #1 EV sales leader in Europe. 

The Tiguan starts @ 28 000 and ends @ 38 000. 

The ID 4 starts @ 38 000.  The mid level ID 4s are @ 43 000-48 000.    Ends @ 51 000

The Arteon starts @ 44 000 and ends at 51 000. 

IMO,  the ID 7 will comfortably start at 45 000 and the mid level offerings will probably be @ 55 000 and more. 

The Atlas, a way bigger CUV starts @ 38 000 but...the price swells to 53 000.  The Atlas acts like the Passat in that VW uses it to sell it to the masses as a cheap alternative to mid level luxury for people that think they are getting mid level luxury and for the people that want to fully exercise their mid level luxury offering could option the Atlas out to 53 000.  

However with all that, I think that is as close to price parity as we could get if the ID 7 starts the way I said it will.  And there is no reason to doubt.  VW has achieved economies of scale with their EVs.  VW is NOT Tesla... 

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

If GM can deliver on their "about $30,000" for the Equinox without sacrificing all quality and materials or pulling a bait and switch like the "under $40,000" F150 lightning that is now $54,000, I think it will be quite an achievement.  

I didnt mention Ford for that exact reason.  But, Ford's Lightning is optioned like an equivalent ICE F150.  Problem is that Ford FORCES you to buy the Lightning with those options with that price tag so Ford could recoup the EV development dollars.  Ford as of yet hasnt got any other models on any other platforms to help with economies of scale.  The Mach-E is on one platform and no other EV is made on it yet and the F150 Lightning is on another platform and no other model is used on it yet.  I dont know how Rivian is implicated with the F150 Lightning. If Rivian is actually implicated at all.

GM is methodically releasing vehicles on Ultium. GM is also selling these EVs in China.  GM is achieving economies of scale.  GM WILL release the Equinox EV @ 30 000.  No reason to believe they wont.   GM also said that the Corvette C8 will be released BELOW 60 000 and the C8 WAS released BELOW 60 000 and for 2 years the MSRP for the C8 STAYED below 60 000.  This year, the starting price for the C8 went slightly above...   There is no reason to doubt GM and their stating of a starting price of around 30 000 for the Equinox EV.

Ive said this 3-4 years ago.   When Tesla was tooting an affordable EV and they didnt deliver, I said the ONLY OEMS that COULD achieve that WOULD be VW, GM, Toyota and perhaps Ford.  This is what I said and this is what I will continue to say.  IF Toyota gets serious about EVs and Ford STOPS their quality control problems.  But VW and GM have got this in the bag.  No problem!   

 

Edited January 5, 2023 by oldshurst442

[smk4565]

16 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

IMO,  the ID 7 will comfortably start at 45 000 and the mid level offerings will probably be @ 55 000 and more. 

However with all that, I think that is as close to price parity as we could get if the ID 7 starts the way I said it will.  And there is no reason to doubt.  VW has achieved economies of scale with their EVs.  VW is NOT Tesla... 

I didnt mention Ford for that exact reason.  But, Ford's Lightning is optioned like an equivalent ICE F150.  Problem is that Ford FORCES you to buy the Lightning with those options with that price tag so Ford could recoup the EV development dollars.  Ford as of yet hasnt got any other models on any other platforms to help with economies of scale.  The Mach-E is on one platform and no other EV is made on it yet and the F150 Lightning is on another platform and no other model is used on it yet.  I dont know how Rivian is implicated with the F150 Lightning. If Rivian is actually implicated at all.

GM is methodically releasing vehicles on Ultium. GM is also selling these EVs in China.  GM is achieving economies of scale.  GM WILL release the Equinox EV @ 30 000.  No reason to believe they wont.   GM also said that the Corvette C8 will be released BELOW 60 000 and the C8 WAS released BELOW 60 000 and for 2 years the MSRP for the C8 STAYED below 60 000.  This year, the starting price for the C8 went slightly above...   There is no reason to doubt GM and their stating of a starting price of around 30 000 for the Equinox EV.

Ive said this 3-4 years ago.   When Tesla was tooting an affordable EV and they didnt deliver, I said the ONLY OEMS that COULD achieve that WOULD be VW, GM, Toyota and perhaps Ford.  This is what I said and this is what I will continue to say.  IF Toyota gets serious about EVs and Ford STOPS their quality control problems.  But VW and GM have got this in the bag.  No problem!   

 

$45k is still a lot for what is basically EV Passat when the Passat wasn't selling at $25-30k.  The Arteon didn't sell either because it was over priced.  I get that VW doesn't really need the American market because they sell 3 million cars a year in China and that is where the money is made.  The iD4 has been a global bust thus far though, so VW has a long way to go with the EV's because really the Tiguan/Jetta/Taos/Golf are falling way behind the Asian competition too.  

The F150 Lightning is on the F150 ICE platform, that is about as good economies of scale as you can get.

I understand GM's Ultium plan, what I am somewhat skeptical on is they can execute the plan.  Because GM had about 4 Cadillac revival plans in the past 20 years and none of those worked.  GM has had lots of plans, didn't always execute and I get that a lot of the management from the 2000s and 2010s is gone and not here to screw this one up.  The Equinox EV doesn't even go on sale for another year, a lot can happen in a year, but I hope they can pull it off.  Also would like to see the EV Malibu that is around $30,000 and undercutting this iD7 by a big amount.

[David]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

$45k is still a lot for what is basically EV Passat when the Passat wasn't selling at $25-30k.  The Arteon didn't sell either because it was over priced.  I get that VW doesn't really need the American market because they sell 3 million cars a year in China and that is where the money is made.  The iD4 has been a global bust thus far though, so VW has a long way to go with the EV's because really the Tiguan/Jetta/Taos/Golf are falling way behind the Asian competition too.  

The F150 Lightning is on the F150 ICE platform, that is about as good economies of scale as you can get.

I understand GM's Ultium plan, what I am somewhat skeptical on is they can execute the plan.  Because GM had about 4 Cadillac revival plans in the past 20 years and none of those worked.  GM has had lots of plans, didn't always execute and I get that a lot of the management from the 2000s and 2010s is gone and not here to screw this one up.  The Equinox EV doesn't even go on sale for another year, a lot can happen in a year, but I hope they can pull it off.  Also would like to see the EV Malibu that is around $30,000 and undercutting this iD7 by a big amount.

Where is Mercedes? They have nothing in the sub $30,000 range. You're bashing everyone else but have ignored that Mercedes has FAILED to deliver any reasonable priced EVs yet. The cheapest EQB is a 300 4matic priced at $55,400 at my local dealer and they already have an adjusted market sticker of $10K on it. Sleazy like all auto reseller's that put second stickers on the auto above MSRP.

[smk4565]

17 hours ago, David said:

Where is Mercedes? They have nothing in the sub $30,000 range. You're bashing everyone else but have ignored that Mercedes has FAILED to deliver any reasonable priced EVs yet. The cheapest EQB is a 300 4matic priced at $55,400 at my local dealer and they already have an adjusted market sticker of $10K on it. Sleazy like all auto reseller's that put second stickers on the auto above MSRP.

There is an EQA coming, that should be under 50.  Mercedes EV's cost Mercedes prices though, most brands EV's are way more than their other cars.  Although I think they need to get the battery cost down that EQB needs to drop about $5k in price, or else people will just buy GLB.

[David]

2 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

There is an EQA coming, that should be under 50.  Mercedes EV's cost Mercedes prices though, most brands EV's are way more than their other cars.  Although I think they need to get the battery cost down that EQB needs to drop about $5k in price, or else people will just buy GLB.

FAIL, EQA is supposed to be their entry level auto and just being under $50K is NOT Entry level and it is NOT Luxury!!!

[Drew Dowdell]

20 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

The Mach-E is on one platform and no other EV is made on it yet

Nor will it be.  Ford might put a Lincoln on there to try and earn some ROI on it, but Ford is already moving on to version 2.0 of that platform, but the differences are so large that it might as well be a whole new platform.

20 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

I dont know how Rivian is implicated with the F150 Lightning. If Rivian is actually implicated at all.

I think Rivian and Ford backed away from each other on vehicle development. They might share some motor or battery tech in the Lightning, but their cooperation on development has mostly ended.

 

20 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

GM is methodically releasing vehicles on Ultium. GM is also selling these EVs in China.  GM is achieving economies of scale.  GM WILL release the Equinox EV @ 30 000.  No reason to believe they wont.   GM also said that the Corvette C8 will be released BELOW 60 000 and the C8 WAS released BELOW 60 000 and for 2 years the MSRP for the C8 STAYED below 60 000.  This year, the starting price for the C8 went slightly above...   There is no reason to doubt GM and their stating of a starting price of around 30 000 for the Equinox EV.

Ive said this 3-4 years ago.   When Tesla was tooting an affordable EV and they didnt deliver, I said the ONLY OEMS that COULD achieve that WOULD be VW, GM, Toyota and perhaps Ford.  This is what I said and this is what I will continue to say.  IF Toyota gets serious about EVs and Ford STOPS their quality control problems.  But VW and GM have got this in the bag.  No problem!

Elon woke a sleeping dragon by taunting GM.  VW is doing it because they got the pants sued off them, but they are equally as methodical and their MEB platform looks very solid.