FUTURE_OF_GM

I am getting REAL tired of hearing that I (and people like me) are narrow minded because we WANT to spend OUR money in a certain way. maybe you, and GM, are narrow minded by not offering THE MAJORITY of the buying public what they truly want. Do you really think that americans WANT to downsize? We appreciate different forms of performance just as much as anyone on this board, yet our opinions are not fashionable right now, so we must change? Yeah right. OR I could just look at the current line up of $h! (And I mean that) at GME and determine that our options for the future are indeed VERY bleak.

Yet they still have the option. It won't happen... You're sitting there telling me that Zeta is a bad business move because it's "too heavy" and "wont sell" and in the very same breath suggesting that GM bring out a slew of diesel options when diesel is almost $5/gallon? And that's supposed to be good business sense on the part of GM? They're still truning a profit. As far as terrorism... What about alternative fuels? Why not allow that to happen instead of giving in to the terrorists and fat cats by forfeiting our freedoms? I know, it makes too much sense, right?

That would be perfect.. However, in order for it to meet the other requirement of an optional V8 it probably wouldn't be that much lighter.

Hey... This is almost as big of a joke as GMs prospects of making it through another decade.

This is very odd... For once I agree with everything Satty said.

"To secure peace we must prepare for war." "Do unto others as they have done unto you" "Fight fire with fire"

Not to mention TONS of investment dollars out the window between this and the Northstar replacement. No wonder the balance sheets look so bad.

If Buick sees significant delays in new product; it IS dead. End of story. The public barely accepted a half-assed Cadillac revival, it certainly will not accept a half-assed Buick revival because the 'goodwill' is not there. WRONG. Buick will not receive Sigma because Buick cannot sell at the price to justify Sigma. Not to mention, cadillac would NEVER let that happen. They would, as PCS says, whisper into the ear of GME to prevent it. It's a damn wonder that Buick is even ALLOWED top have Alpha. And as long as Alpha is 'homeroomed' at GME, there will be no 'enlarging' because it does not benefit the almighty GME to do so. The writing is on the wall... Zeta dies, Alpha becomes a euro-pu**y platform for Mini wannabes. GMNA is a subsidiary of GME because the regs are now "the same" GMNA, no longer an important market since GMNA has squandered future product plans and wasted PRECIOUS time will 'make do' with 36 different Epsilons through eventually fewer divisions. (To match their articficially deflated market share, via stupidity) Holden will be folded into GME and will begin offering Daewoos as gas is "surely set to destroy the car culture there too" Yeah... Because GM can afford to market THAT car enough to change the perception of Buick = Big. G8 will be phased out as Holden is, as our friend from GME says, "integrated". No way the 'braintrust' at GM will allow this "gas guzzler" to exist given the small amount of money and share it brings in. F5 camaro will be used to condition us that a V6 Camaro is "acceptable", which it is so long as a V8 is available. Then I'd say F6 will phase the V8 out altogether or make it so damn expensive and exclusive that no one can buy it except Vette buyers. Not a bright future at all... And all because GM refuses to innovate and lead. Once again, the writing is on the wall... As PCS has stated; Zeta was Lutz baby... Pontiac was Lutz baby... The RWD Impala was Lutz baby... And as PCS has stated, Lutz is no longer running the show. RWD Impala: CANCELED Zeta: Might as well be CANCELED and for all intents and purposes, it looks as if Pontiac is CANCELED as well. Lutz will see GM through the rollout of the Volt, take credit for it, and parachute out on a golden rainbow. Then the place will fall to hell since the beancounters are at the reigns again. Oh, but it is... The old culture is alive and well. Look no further than the pages of C&G for that Malibu is hot, but isn't pulling numbers... Saturn is as cool as a moon rock despite the apparently magical Opel influence.

And this is exactly what is wrong with you and the supposed legion of GME people you talk up. Alpha has no place at Buick, especially since Cadillac is getting the platform as well. I can't wait to watch Buick (The "old mans brand") try to foist Acura fighting Alphas on a population that hasn't given a sh*t about the division since they were born. Sounds like a recipe for success to me! And yes... It's not about the product or GM in general, or taking back the market is it? It's all about a bullsh*t power trip that you say you and your friends are leading. have fun failing miserably, I'll be driving my Fords and BMWs while I'm laughing. And BTW, why would GME be the homeroom of Alpha anyway? It's not like you guys have ever been able to pull something like that off. What is GMNA doing now, nothing?

I'm sure it'll either not be reported or "justified" by the media as a fluke.

Exactly... GM INFORMED the consumer instead of reacting to the market. GM made it's own sales because it was a leader in product and marketing. But now, GM is nothing but a confused monolith with no leadership and no balls.

I agree and, as a lot of us have said for SO LONG, this is where GM's multiple division strategy could really pay off.

+1

I also agree with this though... Ah, shades of gray....

I agree. Capitalism/Free Market is an excellent idea in theory but in reality it is devastating when it gets out of control.

Hey look; A company that has a clue.

He's the difference though... Buick (Just like every GM division, even Cadillac) needs a PRODUCT revival before anything can even happen in the real world. I think the Enclave is an excellent start and I don't think Buick will ever sell in numbers again (Like it did at one time) simply because of the market. However, they can grow the division and they have the opportunity to do it now. BUT, since it looks as if Buick will be deprived of product yet again (Just like Cadillac was in the first "revival") the opportunity will be squandered. As for the DTS/DT7 <--- What a stupid name. I'm sure it'll probably get here one way or another (i.e. it'll be moved to Sigma if needed) My thoughts exactly. It's sheer politics and stupidity IMO. And for those of you claiming that Buick will be okay with more plebian, Chevrolet-esque offerings... Lincoln/Mercury certainly isn't setting the luxury sales charts on fire, is it?

Why should we NOT be upset?!? First, GM delays the program for years, then they tease us with amazing concepts for 3 years, then the tempt us with rumors of fuel saving technologies that will help save the program and now they cancel the damn program altogether. As GM fans, we have been through so much and THESE were our cars. I don't want to buy an AWD Epsilon blob that "with a turbo 4 is as good and cool as blah, blah, blah, hot air, blowing smoke, blah blah." I want a RWD car with the OPTION of a V8... Is that so hard?!? Ford has done it for 40-something years now. Yeah, they have a plan alright.. It's just not a good plan (as usual) PLAN A: Try to 'get by' with a compromised line up composed of compromised product (I mean, after all this is the norm at GM now) They'll sell the Invicta and Enclave (Unless GME can screw that program over too), give the already outclassed Lucerne a facelift and let it die as the market for large cars "dies off". You know, just like the market for large cars "died" in the first place (although Chrysler has made a lot of money from them) and just like the market for affordable sports cars "died" (Although Ford and Nissan would beg to differ) and just like the large/luxury coupe market "died" (eventhough Toyota and Infiniti seem to be selling plenty. And if you haven't 'gotten it' yet; by "die" I mean, GM will stop investing in the product and then when their sales get eaten alive will the deem the niche "dead" without even consulting the reality of the situation. PLAN B: Starve not only Pontiac, but also Buick for product in order to set things up for the communists from GME to come in and utilize their big 3 division system that has proven so wildly successful across the pond. It's nothing more that GIVING UP, either way. I'll take your word on that... Detroit does 2 things well. 1) Trucks and 2) large/sports cars. *IF* Detroit gives up these markets (as it seems they are doing), they will literally bleed to death. GM has never proven to the majority of consumers that it can do small and midsize SUCCESSFULLY. Therefore, the consumer will CONTINUE to buy from Japan Inc, not Detroit. Either Detroit innovates and offers the consumer what they do best, or Detroit dies. It's that simple and this is why I insist that CAFE had a hidden agenda, because everyone but Detroit seems to "get it" Not if they keep it fresh and competitive. Sales will fade on ANYTHING if it is allowed to become stale. This isn't just true of large cars and trucks. GM is working on 1) Epsilon 2 with a whole slew of "CORPORATE" 3.6L V6 offerings and 2) *MAYBE* Alpha which wont be fit for anything larger than a Cobalt companion. NOTHING will replace Zeta, unless you want to fork out for a Cadillac on Sigma. I'm not overreacting. This has gone on long enough. GM either needs to commit to something or just "get lost" IMO

Listen man, I'm not a "weepy eyed nostalgia fan" I drive a 4 cylinder car everyday. I own 4 vehicles with V8s and only one of them drives daily and it's the one that you, the taxpayer, buys gas for. Gas could be $10/gallon and it STILL would not affect my collector cars simply because the cars aren't driven enough for it to. I'm not trying to be mean (just passionate) but your post missed the point of mine. My point is; why can't GM innovate and give the consumer what he/she wants (large cars) with the fuel economy of smaller cars? What happened to a turbo 4 in Zeta? What happened to the hybrid system for Zeta? It's not the end of the world and despite what you 'realists' think, not everyone is going to drive B Segment cars any time soon. Mark my words: The company that can innovate and deliver what the customer wants (trucks and large cars) with the efficiency of or efficiency close to small cars will OWN this market in the future. Right now, thanks to GMs apparent inability to EVER LEAD the market again, my bets are on Ford or Hyundai.

LOL... I've been saying for A LONG TIME that global warming would result in control of the masses................ Well, Merry Christmas Virginia. And what's bad is that the response wasn't "THIS IS OUTRAGEOUS, and VIOLATES FREEDOM!" but rather; "An idea that is ahead of it's time." Let america try something like this.. I'll be the first to go, since I'll be resisting with a gun.

$$$ It's all that counts in this society and it's why our society is dying.

+1... We will have to do some sort of isolationism soon. Or else, this empire will fall faster than the towers on 9/11.

Let us pray that this bull&#036;h&#33; doesn't catch on.

I'm 6'9'/ 360 lbs... I can't do this "smaller" stuff that everyone thinks is the future. If smaller is the future, then that's one more reason to shoot myself. 'nuff said. Here's an idea: why not turbo a smaller displacement V8 for people who want a purest car. (Like me) Like REALLY small.

But none of this matters since apparently GM is being ran (into the ground) by either 1) a retarded kid on coffee or 2) people who haven't seen the outside of the RenCen in 5 years or 3) People who can't see reality because their heads are in the fog (think about it and you'll get it) I'm sure G8 will be canceled within 2 years via GM ignorance and complacency.