FUTURE_OF_GM

Kind of like the misleading attacks and accusations of the media show just how desperate it has become to elevate Toyota above GM?

It's high time this government targets and attacks oil companies and "speculators" They've already screwed us for 8 years and freshly screwed over the auto industry last year.

Nah, that makes too much sense. Gm seems to ignorant to actually innovate these days.

Yeah right... If GM has to stop making the V8, what makes you think the government or fuel prices won't destroy small specialty builders? They will... All in good time.

It's not going to be lighter. The platform will have to be engineered with heavier components for the added power either way and the Turbo V6 will be just as heavy. And FWIW, no. I'd choose the V8 anyday.

Even more power.

A Turbo V6 would be just as heavy and just as thirsty as an LS V8

Well, I'd be absolutely fine with Alpha NOT offering a V8 if GM weren't so stupid to cancel Zeta or some form of it. GM needs a variety of cars and platforms... Zeta, Eps II, Delta II, Alpha, etc. But what we'll end up getting is Eps II cars that are for the bland buyers, Alpha cars that are just as bland except with a bit better handling and a bunch of cheap Delta IIs. WE can determine the future of the V8 and ICE if WE were to innovate instead of follow. WE must plan now, or WE'LL be caught dead in the market again. *raises hand* Why do you people think that there will be NO innovation in the future? By 2011, the gas bubble might bust... By 2011, we might be drilling elsewhere... By 2011, ethanol might be prevalent... By 2011, we could have hydrogen fueled ICEs... By 2011, we could have V8s tuned more toward fuel economy... By 2011 we could have smaller V8s... Please stop buying into the media rhetoric that the world is ending because gas costs $1 more per gallon.

What do most Toyotas sell on? Name alone. I never said the product was bad. But it's certainly nothing to write home about, especially compared to competition from Ford, GM and VW in todays market. I never said it was a conspiracy. I said it was REALLY effective marketing and GREAT timing. FWIW my GFs cavalier is A LOT more fuel efficient than her brothers Civic and my Focus. Yet again, I'm not denying that GM and Ford could've done better, I'm simply pointing out culture and environment.

The whole issue with V8 Alphas isn't engineering. It can easily be done and at this point in the program, they could still include it. The issue is with politics and consumer choice. Homeroom for Alpha is supposedly GME, so they'll be reluctant to engineer the platform for a V8 simply because it won't suit their needs. Not to mention, if gas goes like some people say it will (god I hope not) then how many V8 Alphas will GM sell anyway? I get most of my Alpha news from camaroz28.com. Many over there think that the added weight and complexity of a V8 would ruin the handling characteristics of the platform and make it just as heavy as Zeta. I'm hopeful for a V8 in Alpha, as I would MUCH rather have an Alpha sized Camaro. But I'd almost place money on it not being V8 compatible.

Pop culture does this every day. I'm a die hard GM enthusiast and there was a time a couple of years ago that even I believed Gm to be inferior to Toyota simply because of the editorial and 'news' blitz against the company that I am so loyal to. If it's affecting me, then surely it's having a profound effect on average buyers. Another example... This is the same pop culture that has worked so hard to condition people that buying an SUV of any type is immoral. Edmunds reviewed the hybrid Tahoe and STILL asserted that it is immoral to buy a large SUV, even as the truck consistently got the mileage of a Camry. How's THAT for opinion swaying? They're so blinded by pop culture and the need (basic need) to be accepted that they couldn't even realize the significance of that vehicle. I agree entirely... But at the same time, Toyota is ALWAYS applauded for building just that, especially now. It's all about perception. Toyota building appliances is acceptable, but appliances from GM are not because of the company's heritage. And that is one reason I said that GM must excel on design. GM was only trying to do what it was expected to do; inject design into the cars. Toyota and Honda played it safe (boring) and it worked to their advantage because that's what people expect. Because durable goods are sold on emotion, not logic. Correct. These people are the buyer #1 that I'm referring to. They were specifically marketed to by the asian companies. And that was a brilliant move because these people are the trendsetters in the market now. I wouldn't say involved and elegant. I think that's better reserved for the german cars. Yes, stereotypes often hold truths and I think it's based our culture moving away from a traditional mindset as well as GM's bad missteps. I think it started with GM and Ford. But after they 'opened the door for criticism' and left it open for 20 years, things spiraled out of control. You now have entire families and professions that will not buy american simply because they feel it is beneath them. That, my friends, is cultural.

That's your PERCEPTION of the situation. In reality, the cars were equal, for the most part. And by "papered over" you mean non-existent since the asians couldn't "capture" the market with the crap that they called competitive. Yeah, and what's your point? Besides, just like griffon predicted, once prices rise due to CAFE there will be a lot less new car sales simply for that reason. Does that make it false? Wrong. "smarter people" need to fit in with the image of being a "smarter person" so they buy what they're "supposed" to buy. That's capitalism 101 man. Why else would a "smart person buy a $30K Accord when they can get more car for the money from GM or Ford? Reliability is certainly no longer an issue. Why would a "smart" person drive 5 miles across town to Starbucks for a cup of joe when they could get a better cup at a local coffee shop? Why does a "smart" kid aspire to own Nike shoes when New Balance are just as good or better? It's all about PERCEPTION and image management. And it's a capitalist driven mindset that has been instilled in our minds since birth. We are a consumer culture and we buy that which reflects our "intelligence" or "personality" Not always. Often the more business savvy, talented and consistent people make money. You do realize that you just reaffirmed everything that I said. I just provided the meaning behind it and tried to explain why GM is in the predicament they're in. Environment affects everything that we do. GM's problems and fortunes are at least 50% cultural and until GM understands that and does something about it, they will continue to fail. If you don't believe me, that's fine. But I'd like to point out that so far 'product' hasn't done the trick.

I'll bet handsomly that it would do well in america if GM had the HX in the showroom. And, it's funny that no one was complaining about the division circa 2002 when GM was making about $20K+ on every H2 sell.

The manufacturing moved because the capitalists at the top and the 'advisors' on Wall Street found a way to make MORE money. Do you honestly think that paying a mexican $12/hour to assemble cars is any better? If that were the case, then why are people jumping the border and getting better paying SERVICE (capitalized because by in large service jobs have horrible pay, especially when compared to manufacturing) jobs here? Is the average american in better shape now than his or her mother and father in the 60s? SOCIOLOGICAL FACT: My generation is the FIRST generation in the history of america to NOT surpass the previous generation in wealth and standard of living. So, thanks to our 'selling out' over the last 30 years, I can never expect to have the standard of living that my parents enjoyed. How's that for "gains"

And THIS is one reason why I'm so "selfish" I bet america collapses first.

That's fine... But according to GM, there is no room for Pontiac to have a little bit of everything. That's Chevrolets job. I know.. Why can't it? (Because we all know the G8 will be phased out soon enough) I know... Why can't they? Oh yeah, I forgot... Because according to GM, that's Saturns place. But it still can. Performance doesn't just equal Zeta or RWD. I just want GM to focus the division and not eliminate it or starve it. Oh really? Notice how the new Saturn Aura has the same face as the new Chevy Malibu? Notice how the new Buick Lacrosse has the exact same interior as the forthcoming Saturn Aura? It'll be a case of SSDD from GM. (Same sh*t, different decade)

Well, you live in Europe most of the time and you're old... So, it's not like it matters much to you.

Exactly... I'm all for fairness for everyone, but it never turns out that way. America has been getting screwed by various countries around the world for 30 years now, and we, with our RAPIDLY declining standard of living, are supposed to view that as fair What's sad is that 70% of our population, including the government, is either too blind or self-centered to care. Human nature is to be better than your competition. And that will continue despite our american populations wish for utopia and ignorance to the economic war we are engaged in. China and India are coming on strong and they don't give a sh*t if they're benefit is 'fair' to us or not. I hope most americans realize that before it's too late, but I fear they will not. Spot on.

I don't want this to sound mean, because I like you a lot moltar, but here goes: You people don't understand because you have never lived in a community based on manufacturing. The south was, and still is devastated because of the global economy started by the democrats and their pet NAFTA. I don't work in a mill (although I do live in one ) and I'll do just fine since I've taken enough 'responsibility for myself' to earn 3 degrees. From what I've gathered, you're in the tech industry and you come from a well funded family. Therefore, you will never understand because you have never tasted the desperation that I have at some points in my life. People here call me selfish for wanting to be able to live and see my hometown prosper or even survive at the expense of other countries. Do you guys honestly think that a small town in China or Mexico is thinking and spewing this same crap about selfishness and helping other countries? Hell, the Canadians are crying louder than anyone right now becuse GM is closing a plant that produces products that aren't selling. And GM is even offering to RELOCATE all of the employees. I think it's your lifestyle that is selfish because you guys are the people that often refuse to buy american and couldn't care less about people like me who depend/depended on manufacturing for our survival. But all is well in your townhome in the city and that's all that counts, right?

I'm not selfish. Don't pretend that you know me based on a blog persona that I built. And secondly, I seem to be living just fine.

Sweet! I love the Beat. Just can't fit my big ass in one.

Who cares... The asians companies don't play fair, why should we?

*Clears throat** Zeta.

Will this stupidity never end? Minivans are NOT big vehicles. Nope... But I'd bet a ZETA BASED wagon or crossover would!

It was built on opportunity... Opportunity created by the first fuel crunch and an increasingly liberal anti-american pop culture. I own an 80s Toyota and still drive it sometimes. the car isn't the sh*t it is/was cracked up to be. Yet, the asiasn took a SERIOUS chunk of the market anyway based on 1) Detroits inability to offer decent gas sipping cars 2) Disdain for america and Detroit in pop culture and 3) a dealership infrastructure basically FINANCED by Detroit and exploited by japan.