FUTURE_OF_GM

Thanks for the compliment, I do idolize the guy. Thanks! Even more For the record, Steph (The GF) hates the goatee. Every time I grow it out she threatens to cut it off in my sleep, LOL.

At least I was still sporting the wallet chain and meeting my requirement of wearing one black article of clothing each day. :AH-HA_wink:

I think it could be a good thing, if done correctly. I am worried, but I have faith that GM knows that the division still has appeal. If GM wanted to just kill off Pontiac, they could've just phased the division out or said they were planning to (Like they basically did with Saturn) If that were the case, why would GM beat around the bush? The dealers, the ones that will oppose this, are screwed either way and will seek some type of compensation from GM. I don't understand why the dealers would be pissed. They'll be getting higher priced Buicks that they can make more money off of anyway. I still don't understand GM's and it's loyalists desire to kill Pontiac... The division certainly sells, despite a less than stellar line up and it pulls volume at that. Why would GM even limit it in the first place? Do they know something we don't know? P.S. I edited the title of the topic as a compromise. The original title was just "Not good for Camino"

True that... And I bet they'll be successful in fooling everyone as well.

I'm very torn on the issue... All I know is that GM needs to maintain 6 divisions, if for no other reason than company morale. I'm glad I don't have to make the decision between Saab and Saturn because it would be a hard one. What it comes down to is GM's future business plan, IMO. Does GM want to attack the market with 2 volume divisions; Chevrolet and what they were trying to grow Saturn into with the latest products. Or, is GM content with pumping most of their volume through 3 (or 4 if you count GMC) global brands. I do believe that one of Saturn's major downfalls is it's tiny (relatively speaking) dealer network. If GM wants 2 volume divisions, then Saturn must stay and be given the opportunity (read, more than 5-7 years and a lot of money) to grow. If GM wants to support certain niches of the market, then Saab, along with Pontiac on the other end of the spectrum, might be the better candidate given it's global status, potential for ROI and potential to expand. Heck, Saturn could even be turned into a niche brand as well if GM had the patience... In my "GM Plan version 2.0" in the To GM section, I outlined what I would do with the two companies. I would leave Saab as is (with it's planned product and direction) turn Saturn back into a small car specialist with a line topping Astra and combine the two franchises into one dealer channel. That way, they could prop each other up and hopefully plant the seeds for expansion. Or, GM could eventually bundle the whole thing up and sell them both if things keep getting worse.

As they should... Some would argue that GM looks out for the dealers way too much, given the return. (But that's another topic) GM's small town dealers need to be kept happy. This is a HUGE advantage that GM still has over the asian imports.

I don't understand this whole "Pontiac goes away" thing. Has GM secretly been planning the demise of that division for some time now, or was the name SO damaged that GM believed/forcasted that it couldn't be saved? What gives? I think it's pretty defeatist and pretty sad if indeed GM did take this surrender mentality.

Before the removal of the 'goatfield' Yep, it's a chessy mirro shot, but cut me some slack. I had to shave that night and didn't have anyone to take the pic. After the 'goatfield' I look so... PLAIN and Normal there. I hate it. Oh well, had to look 'approachable' because it was a Christmas party, LOL.

Car and Driver.... Redeem thyself?!?!?! NICE!!!!

I'd like to see a G8 line (coupe & sedan or sedan and ST) a G6 line (The next Solstice could take on this role in coupe, convertible and sedan form) and some entry level car. Call them whatever you want to.

Pontiac could be a one-car brand Rick Kranz Automotive News December 15, 2008 - 12:01 am ET DETROIT — The Pontiac brand next decade may be trimmed to one nameplate — or it could have as many as three. "We need to skinny it up, get it very focused and then create a very special role for Pontiac within the BPG channel," said Susan Docherty, vice president of Buick-Pontiac-GMC. "But it needs to be with a very focused entry or entries." Pontiac now has six nameplates. This month, General Motors submitted a recovery plan to Congress, revealing a lesser role for Pontiac in the next decade. GM will reduce the number of companywide nameplates to 40 by 2012, from 48 today. "We are not going to spend tons of money on product development" for Pontiac, Docherty said. GM's product development dollars will go to its four core brands — Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet and GMC, she said. Instead, Pontiac may rely on an import or imports such as the G8, assembled by GM's Holden subsidiary in Australia. "The Pontiac G8 is a perfect example," she said. "With a minimal amount of investment, we are able to have a unique entry." To distinguish Pontiac, Docherty said Pontiac and Buick should have separate vehicle architectures. Sharing architectures "would not fill the mission of what we said in the long-term viability plan, of (Pontiac) being very focused, very specialty or niche." Pontiac will continue to market six models in 2009. The Torrent crossover will be dropped, but the G3 subcompact will be added. Nameplates will die in the following years. Docherty said none of Pontiac's nameplates is safe: "I would tell you that the white board is clean. Anybody that tells you that we got this thing figured out today, exactly what it's going to be, the answer to that is, no." *** Interesting.... I wonder why GM decided to 'dynamite' it's second best selling car division? Lack of funds (probably) jealousy from Chevrolet? (Maybe) Fleet sales and poor ROI? (Maybe) Can anyone enlighten me? I must say, while I like the idea of a focused Pontiac, I'm a little nervous about trusting GM to do the right thing. Especially if the line up consists of only one model and no funds for product development. Could this, in fact, mean that Pontiac is the next Mercury? I guess Pontiac will equal Holden on the global scene after all. So Pontiac = Holden and Buick = Opel/Vauxhall. Saturn = ?????***

http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dl...812150340/1078 Pontiac will bring G3 but reconsiders G8 ST Rick Kranz Automotive News December 15, 2008 - 12:01 am ET DETROIT — Although Pontiac plans to trim nameplates in the next three years to possibly one vehicle, the front-wheel-drive 2010 G3 subcompact will arrive on schedule next spring. But General Motors is reconsidering plans to launch the 2010 G8 ST sport pickup late next year. "We are having lots of discussions," said Susan Docherty, vice president of Buick-Pontiac-GMC. "We would be foolish if we didn't take a second look at whether or not that is the right thing to do." GM developed the G8 ST on the G8 platform. Enthusiasts had compared the pickup to the Chevrolet El Camino, which ended production in the late 1980s. The G8 ST pickup was created by GM's Holden subsidiary in Australia. GM projected sales of about 5,000 units annually. Meanwhile, the 2010 G3 subcompact will have a sticker price below $15,000. The car is essentially a Pontiac version of the Chevrolet Aveo but won't have a long life in Pontiac's lineup. "We always knew that the G3 was a bridge strategy: We told that to our dealers," said Docherty. "This will help us through this period of time where fuel efficiency and affordability are the two top reasons for people who are purchasing in that segment of the market. "It will fill a void for us on a short-term basis. We needed it in the economic environment we are in, but the G3 does have a limited life cycle." ***Good news and bad news I guess... I think the G8 ST could really be successful here *IF* it were marketed and supported correctly. i.e. I think the core of the line up needs to take on the Ridgeline with the enthusiast models left for us. But, with the way Pontiac seems to be going, I'm not sure that would happen anyway. If I were GM, I would at least bring it over to test the water for either a GMC (Denali XT) or Chevy version. Dougherty just said that the G8 takes minimal investment. A GMC Denali XT would looks good sitting on the floor next to a updated G8 ST ***

The potential in Saab is; 1) that it is NOT a traditional domestic division and 2) It already has a solid foundation for green technology. GM needs to retain at least ONE division that does not carry baggage. So, either Saab or Saturn must stay IMO. Saturn has the most potential for volume, but Saab is correctly positioned to be perfectly integrated into GM. (Something Saturn, it's overlapping models with Chevrolet and now Buick and it's stand alone dealers is not capable of) Not to mention, Saab is already global and honestly, as well off or better than Cadillac in that respect. Loyalists should be ignored. We're all GM loyalists and we're consistently ignored. 'Loyalists' are a niche that, at this time, GM cannot afford to cater to. GM needs volume car hits and luxury division expansion in order to survive.

(Sadly) I know... The problem is, I don't know if it was all unavoidable. I remember the 29 pins, but not 30 pins. I remember thinking to myself (during the credit downgrades and then during the GMAC sell off -- That's actually when I worked in the financial industry) 'this certainly will not bode well for the future.'

You note this 'flop' yet at the same time chastise GM for not investing in hybrids?!?! What's the difference? And they still are. Too bad GM gets criticized for their hydrogen program while Honda and it's late-to-the-game FCV gets all the media slurping it can take. Easy to do when the GOVERNMENT of your country funds it. You can be as creative as you want with THEIR money. ORLY? Sales were down 45% last month. It had nothing to do with Congress. The alternative energy cars were already on the table. And the media capitalizes on GM's new ad campaign (Like I told all of you they would) Merry Christmas, Virginia... TOLD YOU SO!

Nissan and GM are like apples and oranges. Nissan is a company that has 2 division with roughly 5 platforms. Like Ford, they would be easy to turn around with some cash. And, in fact, they benefit from the media and japanese image which makes things even easier. Like anyone could've predicted this years gas spike. Not to mention, the prices were GROSSLY inflated and the PRICES caused a lot of the economic turmoil that we're seeing today. Not really. Need I remind you that GM developed and produced the first electric car? And they WERE and still ARE... EVERYONE scoffed at the first hybrids. In 1998, gas was .98/gallon here. Had GM invested in a project such as this, Wall Street would have cooked the company.

And they were..... Until the greedy bastards on 'the street' NUKED the economy. Okay 1) That's pure bull$h!... GM, like other companies has had common chassis for at least 1-2 generations of product now. The fact that the common chassis was modified based on continent and/or product is COMMON across all automakers. 2) MOST automakers are just now going to a GLOBAL chassis system because the GLOBAL market is finally starting to align. Yeah, and you see how that ended up. Never once did I read of INCREASED INVESTMENT in Hummer circa 2005. Ya know... Let's pause right here for a second. Back in 2005, I remember reading NUMEROUS articles that had Wagoner OUTLINING the collapse of GM, if the UAW and costs were not brought under control. I specifically remember one article that quoted Wagoner as saying "I don't know what the answer is" To paint Wagoner as some whimsical idiot is just plain unfair IMO. Did he make mistakes? Absolutely. But the man inherited a sh*t storm of controversy. Not to mention, it seems that even the GODS want GM and Detroit to fail since the companies haven't been able to catch a break for 5 years now.

GM's market share was NO WHERE NEAR 30% in 2000. Best I recall, they were struggling to maintain 28%. And just like with the "SUV BOOM" the domestics are SOLELY responsible for this, right?!?! HOT DAMN!!!! GM and Ford must have EXCELLENT marketing and EXCELLENT REPUTATIONS to STRONG ARM the market and consumer taste so much. So, instead of being a noble effort to keep the economy from taking sh*t, you know the one it PROLONGED until 2008 (Much like GM apparently prolonged bankruptcy) this is going to be spun as a bad business move? That figures... I would expect nothing less for our fine media. GM should've just let this country fall and rot back then. Never fear though, hopefully it'll do so now. I do agree with that... This has especially crippled the middle divisions (Buick, Pontiac & GMC) Oh, you mean the production system that they stole from us, improved upon and then claimed was theirs? You know, like they do with all of their 'innovations' Agreed 100% THIS IS GOSPEL Apparently this asshole hasn't seen a Saturn in 3-4 years?!?!?! Isn't that what the stockholders wanted?!?! Did all of you want a leader that said; "Well guys... Looks like we'll be even more SCREWED in 3 years... And then in 5 years, we can just call it quits!"

Didn't this guy just chastise GM for having too much overhead and bureaucracy? yet he supported a 'Nissan makes GM it's bitch' merger and thinks that might SIMPLIFY things?!?! Was this author drunk? Oh, you mean the investment sharks that wanted to make a quick profit off of GM instead of see it succeed. Again, GM was supposed to take advice from this guy?!?! NEWS FLASH! They're both or sale... Can't 'get rid' of a brand if no one is buying. Why the hell does everyone keep saying this? Did these people even read the report? GM stated that 5 divisions would stay. Both caused by greedy motherf**kers on Wall Street. By selling cars, GM was "delaying it's day of reckoning"? How so? If so, did the import companies not share this same bubble? 18% is still pretty rare, since that leaves 82% as normal loans.

Ohhh... Dramatic.... When the media tirade against GM peaked. 80% of that was, of course, out of the control of current management. GM is still paying for it's past mistakes (Thanks to assholes like this guy) 1) This makes it out to sound like Wagoner and Co. were just "partying the night away" like the AIG execs. 2) I doubt very seriously that Lehman Brothers had sh*t to do with GM's sales tanking in the first place. The over all crisis? Yes. Lehman Brothers? f*ck no. Good thing I wore my boots, 'cause the sh*ts gettin' deep in here.

Talk about a smear piece... Looks like the media will work hard to convince the consumer that GM and Chrysler are already bankrupt (In order to put them into bankruptcy.

Yeah... I wish you ran Toyota PR. That would be a disaster. Taking Toyota down after that would be TOO easy.

It's funny... PCS talked about how the Pontiac, GMC, Buick marriage was an unholy alliance. While walking around one of the lots the other day, I couldn't help but agree... The Buicks looked upscale (even though most are dated) as did the GMCs. But the Pontiacs looked cheap and bastardized (except for the obvious premium models) not unlike Kias... Pontiac needs to have a new direction ASAP in my opinion. Buick and GMC are an excellent pair that should be successful. Pontiac needs to be the performance player that all of us enthusiasts have wanted all along.

Yeah, that seems to be the trend in order to produce the 'united front' If I see another shiny new Toyota or Nissan dealer, Ima scream. For some reason these companies even have the uncanny ability to coordinate their dealers into a common theme... GM could only dream of doing that. So maybe GM is moving to combine these dealers? It seems to be happening a lot.