FUTURE_OF_GM

For those of us that know what the hell we're talking about, sure it raised the bar a lot. But to the general public/boomers (MOST of which know exactly what a GTO was and IS supposed to be) it did nothing but di the hole deeper in a lot of ways.

That would make sense, given the Grand Am SC/T show car and the constant rumors surrounding it. (i.e. "It will be the new GTO" and "supercharged mid-size cars") That also would've fit into the Pontiac 'induction' trend. Supercharged GP, Ram Air Trans Am and Grand Am (Remember the "Ram Air" that gave the Grand Am GT 5 more hp?) That's so sad... That Pontiac had such a bright future. As far as people thinking about the future of Pontiac... We're all realistic, but given the "gossip" that is coming out of GM, Pontiac will instead focus on performance (as opposed to the Vibe) Now, whether that materializes will remain to be seen. I just hope that GM realizes the potential of Pontiac and actually tries to save it, instead of this just being a ploy to shed the brand. Kudos to GM for keeping Saab, or some form of it. I think it is essential that GM shrink to no less than 6 divisions.

Home sweet home: This is the mountain range on the other side of the valley from where I grew up. (I didn't take the picture, swiped it from Flickr)

I must say... I am VERY impressed! I think it looks great inside and out! Random Comments: 1) The profile view reminds me a lot of the SRX... That concerns me. 2) The front is VERY (scary) close in design to the new Vue... That really concerns me as well. 3) GM needs to market this, the Traverse and the Malibu as a new "family" of Chevrolet vehicles. These ads need to play up amenities, fuel economy, refinement, awards (can't tell you how mad I am about GM *FINALLY* marketing the Malibu as 2008 NA COTY, when it is about to lose the title to a 2009 contender ) and comments from the media. 4) The Thetas all seem to be very similar... That makes me a little nervous. But that philosophy seems to be working for the Lambdas, so whatever, I guess. I agree... this whole 'everything looks like everything else' trend at GM is really scaring me (kinda like they're moving toward a one or two division philosophy) That WAS a big benefit of the brand management days. Each division has a distinct design language (despite most of them being horribly executed) I'm also not a big fan of the push to "organic look".

Normally, I'd be right there with you. However, In my relatively limited time of being a GM fan (15-20 years) I've sat here and watched them squander opportunity after opportunity. I can only IMAGINE how the GM lifers feel. +1 X 1000!!! Excellent plan! I think the next G8 should follow what the Zeta GTO was supposed to be, in that it is restrained but still Pontiac specific. As for the Alpha line, I say it directly adopts the Solstice look and capitalizes on the successful image that this Pontiac has already built. As for the GTI entry... Anything but cheap, is my mantra. Doesn't have to be traditional or tame. In fact, it needs to turn heads.

I really don't think personality, something that is formed very early in our development, has much to do with weight.

Not even ONE post and someone took the bait! (What I said wasn't even insulting, merely an opinion. I could've said a lot worse) The next time someone says something about southern people or rednecks being stupid I'll be sure to tell them that they're becoming 'rather irksome' as well. (Because those kinds of comments aren't perpetuated on this board at all) Thanks for playing! And it doesn't make me think any more of Californians or their OBVIOUSLY flawed logic.

No freakin' kidding man... I was standing outside yesterday thinking are we EVER going to see the sun again?!?! Of course, today it's beautiful I'm a "both" person as well... I grew up in the mountains and that's where my heart will always be. But I don't get to the beach much and when I do I tend to love/savor every minute of it. I think it would be so cool to live next to the ocean, get off of work at 4 or 5 and be able to just head to the beach and relax or the rest of the evening. The GF and I have thought about moving to a beach town an then maintaining a vacation house in the mountains (Since it would be much harder to get decent jobs in the mountains)

I agree... I was talking to a friend the other day and he said; "Isn't Pontiac basically out of business now? They used to make the Grand Am but now they don't. So I told him they made the G6 instead. He said; "What's that?" And this guy i a sports fanatic, so he is definitely part of Pontiac's supposedly 'marketed to' crowd. I hate to say it... But I can see your point and I do somewhat agree. But, I think the problem was that Lutz was not given the resources to adequately save Pontiac. It's almost like the GM planners wanted to redefine all of GM's other brands and then give the $5 that is left to Pontiac and say "fix yourself" I think the company (and it's products) we're majorly effed up. Lutz TRIED to do what he could, but it was too late. He essentially did what he knew to do (which was a flawed method anyway, looking back at the demise of Plymouth and Chrysler as a whole) he established a (compromised) halo; the Solstice and then used his 'jellybean, tumblehome, mundane' styling tastes to 're-touch' the rest of the line up. Like it or not (and the media hated it) Pontiac was known for styling that didn't put you to sleep. Lutz changed that for the worst. But then again, it's not like he had a lot to work with in the first place. The Monaro was greenlighted (rushed) because of the FEAR that the public/media would destroy Pontiac, the performance division, for not having a V8 car. And, of course, the fickle Pontiac audience balked. The G6 was locked in before Lutz arrived. The G5, Torrent and G3 were just GM's ignorance and caving to the dealers. Given the market, I would completely expect an impractical, unneeded car to be selling at this pace. The Solstice is a toy and people aren't buying toys right now. Laziness? Because Pontiac needed an entry level product? (Most likely since that was the plan until the dealers hen pecked GM into offering the G5) What it boils down to is this IMO. And I hate to say it, but it's true... ANY GM division that is expected to battle the 'premium' (not luxury) imports falls flat on it's face and the fact that GM couldn't manage it's way out of a good BM doesn't help. Oldsmobile had this mission and failed. Pontiac shared this mission with Saturn, yet both have apparently failed. THAT is not a good thing, because that's a HUGE portion of the market that GM is missing out on. And, that is not a ood thing for Buick IMO, because it is now the brand that it expected to get the job done. And unless GM gets it's sh*t together, Buick (with it's image and limited reach) will fail miserably. The only good thing about it is that Buick, unlike Saturn, Pontiac and Olds, doesn't hav to share it's resources with another 'premium' (READ: not luxury) division in the GM empire.

Naturally... It's in California. (I think the left coast needs to 'lay off the blow')

Now what, is wrong with that statement? (Pontiac doesn't = sales volume now) I agree that the Aura/Saturn budget is sh*tty, but how much of that is related to dealership availability? (Just to be fair) Unless GM correctly markets the car to enthusiasts and can actually satisfy the niche role that they laid out for the division. Not to mention, as I said earlier, the G8 is pretty much pure profit so sales numbers don't matter that much. Not trying to be an ass, but I'm tired of the anti-Pontiac tirade. I thought it would've died when your division of choice got it's papers. +1 And wasn't that the original plan for Kappa II? (Bowling Green) Especially in light of the Cielo concepts from the 90's

Part of me wants to say no... But then I look up and see that APPARENTLY, GM has the "luxury" of reducing their best selling division in Canada and their 2nd best selling car division in america to niche status, so why not? I dunno, I guess GM has decided that it is going to 'give up' and die. Or they're just THAT DAMN STUPID. My guess is this: Consider the following; 1) We all know that Pontiac is probably the most damaged of all the GM divisions here. 2) GM makes more ROI from Buick (Remember, profit over share now apparently) 3) Pontiac is not global, GM's growth IS global. GM does not have the money or need to establish another global division. Therefore; GM is limiting Pontiac down to 1-3 models for now. If they are successful at repairing the image of the division with these (supposedly strong and focused) products. GM can then expand the brand again (although I don't think it'll ever be "volume" like it is now, nor should it be) when it has $$$ to play with -AND get a higher ROI. That would finally put Pontiac as premium to Chevrolet and allow it to fit into the BPG channel nicely instead of standing out like a cheaply bandaged sore thumb. So, in essence, GM KNOWS that the division has a lot of potential (huge equity and a solid identity, but not a mainstream identity) but GM doesn't have the resources to fund the transformation right now. But when GM is in better shape in a few years, it can grow the brand and it's share back into something with a more 'premium' status. (Basically, GM is saying "hold that thought" and betting the division's future on if the company survives in a state that it is needed) I think the move to keep the G8 above all else is the first step in that direction because it 1) establishes a HIGHER $$$ to enter the Pontiac brand and 2) has a better ROI given that it is basically "icing on the cake" to the Commodore program. -OR- Pontiac is being parred down to be killed 1) If the image doesn't recover and 2) If, at all costs, GM simply cannot make a good ROI on the division. Honestly, I think GM recognizes the potential of the division and DOES wish for it's future growth and success and is basically putting the division on hiatus. If that weren't the case, GM would've just phased the division out DESPITE the dealers. GM is basically bankrupt. In a few days they will be government backed and will be battling the UAW over MAJOR issues. What the hell makes anyone think that they would be afraid to take on dealers? Dealers that saw the writing on the wall anyway and essentially have 2 replacement divisions. That said, I also think that Pontiac is at a crucial and fragile point right now and things could go either way. I mean, why phase it out if it STILL appeals to so many people (sales numbers) and isn't a cost burden? This is where Pontiac has the advantage that Saturn doesn't; being in a channel with Buick and GMC means that Pontiac has LITTLE to no overhead. And that gets reduced even further with less models and no GMNA development. Not to mention it could, down the road, be a defining division and a HUGE growth potential. So, GM essentially compromised.

Nothing official yet... And I say that because you make me laugh... All that bullsh*t about Saturn being the new godsend and now they've got the gun to their head to follow Oldsmobile into the grave. What? Are you going to change your story to "Buick will be the savior of GM" now? My point is: EVERYTHING IS UP IN THE AIR RIGHT NOW. GM DOESN'T EVEN KNOW WHAT IT'S DOING NEXT WEEK, MUCH LESS 5 YEARS FROM NOW So? Wouldn't be the first time GM has planned a product, cancelled it, planned it again and finally delivered. GM is so schizo that the wagon might make it here after all. ESPECIALLY now that the planned Saturn "Insignia wagon" will likely not be coming here. Funny, all reports from Oz say that Holden is doing everything it can to advance Zeta or even make it continue to be viable if the redesign is delayed. Because it is a unique, EASY solution to the problem AND the most likely answer to the question. Why couldn't Pontiac sell a line of Zetas, ESPECIALLY if the efficiency of the platform is vastly improved? The demand is there, the potential is there, so why not? Holden CERTAINLY isn't going anywhere because 1) GM has given it the greenlight on the Volt and 2) GM doesn't have the damn money to launch Chevrolet in Oz, even if they wanted to. Therefore, Buick = Opel and Pontiac = Holden. What does that have to do with anything? I guess by that logic, Opel won't be receiving an Alpha and neither will Holden (which has stated that it is already toying with the idea of a Commodore replacement on Alpha) Even if GM doesn't develop an Alpha for Pontiac (last I heard, Pontiac is still being considered) it won't be that hard to spend $5 and make a Chinese Buick into a Pontiac for NA. That is, assuming Alpha even sees the light of day in the first place... Last I heard, it was significantly delayed and WAS NOT a priority within GM. GMNA* would not be spending much money on it. And that's okay (for now) because it doesn't need to. For instance; The G8 can be developed by Holden and then VERY little money spent to put a new face on it and bring it here (As long as the currency exchange is favorable, the G8 remains profitable) The Solstice can weather the storm for a while with minimal investment, as there are no major 'engineering hurdles or regualtions' that will jeopardize the car anytime soon. And the Vibe is developed mostly by Toyota. VOILA! A 3 model Pontiac line up that requires little to NO investment from GMNA.

GM May Shrink Pontiac Lineup to One Model From Six (Update1) Email | Print | A A A By Greg Bensinger Dec. 18 (Bloomberg) -- General Motors Corp. peddled Pontiacs for years with the slogan “We Build Excitement.” To stay afloat, it’s producing fewer thrills -- and models. The company may shrink the Pontiac division to a single model from six following a drop in sales every year since 1999. “It might be just one model,” Mark LaNeve, GM’s North American sales chief, said in an interview. GM joins Chrysler LLC and Ford Motor Co. in trimming brands as U.S. sales sag amid the biggest financial crisis since the Great Depression. GM has said it will run out of cash by the end of the month and is seeking financial aid from the government to avoid a collapse. While GM told Congress on Dec. 2 that it would shrink the number of models it sells, including at Pontiac, it hasn’t said previously that it might jettison all but one Pontiac brand. Paring Pontiac to a lone model would deprive GM of its third highest-selling brand after Chevrolet and GMC, and almost 2.2 points of U.S. market share accounted for by Pontiac’s sales of 358,022 vehicles in 2007. GM’s market share has dwindled to 22.1 percent from a peak of 51.1 percent in 1962. Sales of GM vehicles are down 22 percent through November of this year from the year-earlier period, including a 23 percent plunge for Pontiac to 250,902 units. Only Pontiac’s redesigned Vibe small car has increased sales this year. Gaining by Losing Jettisoning the Pontiac brands would help GM by cutting jobs and production costs, trimming advertising and eliminating lower-margin vehicles, said Efraim Levy, an equity analyst at Standard & Poor’s in New York. “GM can get more bang for their buck,” said Levy, who rates the Detroit-based automaker as “sell.” GM shares have fallen 82 percent this year through yesterday. They lost 14 cents, or 3.2 percent, to $4.23 at 10:50 a.m. in New York Stock Exchange composite trading. The company, which scrapped the Oldsmobile line in 2000, said in its request to Congress for help that shrinking brands would result in 20,000 to 30,000 fewer U.S. hourly and salaried workers. GM already plans to eliminate its Pontiac Torrent sport- utility vehicle, said Debbie Frakes, a spokeswoman. GM gave no estimate of cost savings or worker reductions at Pontiac. The one remaining Pontiac would be a car to be sold alongside Buicks and GMCs, on a scale similar to its Corvette available in Chevrolet showrooms, LaNeve said. GM sold 33,685 Corvettes last year. ‘Lost Its Way’ While LaNeve wouldn’t name the remaining Pontiac, he described it as “a very high-appeal, performance-oriented model as opposed to a mainstream high-volume model.” It would be less expensive than the Corvette, which starts at about $50,000, LaNeve said. That most likely means the Pontiac G8 sedan, introduced this year in the U.S., said John Wolkonowicz, an analyst with IHS Global Insight in Lexington, Massachusetts. He said Pontiac may drop the G5, G6, Solstice and Vibe cars and the soon-to-be- released G3 compact. The cutbacks would mark the near-demise of a once iconic brand, he said. “In its heyday, Pontiac was a brand everyone wanted to own and no one would be embarrassed to drive,” Wolkonowicz said. “Pontiac simply lost that excitement; it totally lost its way.” First sold in 1926, Pontiac became known as a higher- quality alternative to Chevrolet. The unit developed a reputation for high-performance autos such as the now-defunct Bonneville sedan, eventually rising to third in U.S. sales behind Chevrolet and Ford’s namesake brand. Muscle-Car Era Pontiac’s 1964 GTO sports car ushered in an era of so- called muscle cars such as the Dodge Challenger and Chevrolet Camaro. “Pontiac at that time was the golden boy of the auto industry,” Wolkonowicz said. The division’s most popular model was the Grand Prix, with sales of 288,000 in 1977, GM said. Pontiac sales peaked in the U.S. at 896,980 in 1978, GM’s best year, according to trade publication Automotive News. By last year, they had fallen 60 percent from that record. Today, GM is trying to incorporate the brand alongside Buick and GMC models in dealer showrooms. GM also is rethinking the future of its Saturn unit and has put Saab and Hummer on the sales block. Ford said on Dec. 1 it will sell Volvo, while Chrysler is closing a Newark, Delaware, plant this year where it makes the Dodge Durango and Chrysler Aspen sport-utility vehicles. GM Vice Chairman Bob Lutz, who in 2005 described Pontiac as a “damaged brand,” has said the division hit a low point with its Aztek crossover SUV that debuted in 2001. Time magazine listed the Aztek among the worst 50 cars of all time in 2007, citing a “deformed and scary” appearance. Dealers Go Too LaNeve said GM will try to eliminate 1,700 of its 6,400 U.S. dealerships in five years, in part by normal turnover and combining showrooms for Buick, Pontiac and GMC, known internally as BPG. GM expects to lose about 400 dealerships after selling the Saab and Hummer franchises, he said. Reducing dealers helps cut competition, boosting sales at remaining outlets. The changes may add more desirable customers, said Charles Martin, who owns Classic Buick-Pontiac-GMC in Carrollton, Texas. “This could be a good thing for the BPG channel, by inviting younger buyers,” he said. *** As much as I support a more focused Pontiac, WHY is GM choosing this path? I don't get it... Do they think that Buick and Chevrolet are going to pick up the sales?!?! Seriously... Someone enlighten me.

I think this is a good strategy... So long as they don't look, feel the same or compete with each other. GM needs to broaden it's horizons and attack THE WHOLE MARKET, not shoot 7 versions of the same car at 1/3rd of the market. Oh, and so long s Pontiac gets it niche role fulfilled and builds the character, equity and image of the brand.

+1. Which is why, even when I am sitting, I'm posting on here or something 'constructive' instead of just 'vegging out' in front of the tube. My GF and I constantly bicker about this. On weekends she likes to take it easy and relax (Not surprising given how busy her curriculum and work keep her) I, however, usually have the weekend time blocked with activities. I get so mad when she won't participate. LOL.

Some of my favorite metal vids: MetallicA -- "All Nightmare Long" Their latest and one of the best songs on Death Magnetic. It's long, but pretty cool! MetallicA -- "One" One of the best videos ever made... The song is about the anti-war book and movie "Johnny Got His Gun" MetallicA -- "Enter Sandman" MetallicA at their very best in a lot of ways. I especially like (for effect) the "One Way" sign essentially pointing to hell. MetallicA -- "Until It Sleeps" One of my all time favs... The song describes me a lot. The video is full of symbolism and the song is actually about the lead singer's father and his fatal battle with cancer. MetallicA -- "Fuel" Fun for any red blooded car guy. MetallicA -- "The Memory Remains" This is what started my obsession with MetallicA... I saw the video and was just floored. MetallicA is and always has been all about attitude Even though a lot of their 90's stuff wasn't as heavy, the lyrics and feel were very DARK and tormented. One of the coolest parts of KoRn was always the visual aspect. Jonathan Davis puts SO MUCH emotion in every word of the songs and the music (sludge metal) is simple so it's easy to groove to. A big part of metal is FEELING the music. I've never headbanged harder anywhere than at a KoRn concert. When the band starts doing it, like at the end of this video it's very contagious ) KoRn -- "Here To Stay" This video and performance is just amazing (powerful) When this broke big, it was the first metal show I ever attended. At the time, KoRn was in a HUGE legal dispute with there label (They've since won the dispute) This song and video was made to show their disdain for the music industry. Not surprisingly, it pissed their label off even more (At first the label tried to get the song removed from the album) and was virtually ignored by the music channels. Serj Tankian -- "Empty Walls" One of the best videos I've ever seen. As always with Serj, the message is spot on and the execution is amazing. I love that top hat look as well! Serj Tankian -- "Sky Is Over" Ditto the first comment! Where I got my famous "For The People" signature picture. This video AND SONG are especially relevant for the times we live in. This is a video composed of clips from other Megadeth videos and live events. It still tells a story and is big on making a statement. I especially like the symbolism in the scene where the lady is hanging babies out to dry as the sinister looking steam engine is pulling into town at sunset. DevilDriver -- "Not All Who Wander Are Lost" This is just a cool ass 'metal' video... DevilDriver -- "Clouds Over California" I think the kids are really cool in this vid... Reminds me of when I discovered metal and how I was 'outcast' by a lot of people because of it. The kid that is playing Dez (the lead singer) is SPOT ON in his mannerisms. I love this video because it is just so damn creepy. Alexi is a very talented guitarist/vocalist and IMO, C.O.B. is one of the leading 'new' thrash bands. A video that showcases Alexi's talent. Slipknot -- "Psychosocial" One of the most bad ass videos I've ever seen. Slipknot -- "Before I Forget" Pretty cool how they incorporated the masks without wearing them. Stone Sour -- "Through The Glass" You've probably all heard this one. I love the statement it makes about Hollywood. (BTW, the lead singer and guitarists also play those same roles in Slipknot, for those of you that didn't know. Avenged Sevenfold -- "A Little Piece Of Heaven" This one is a bit disturbing, but cool. I LOVE the song because it 1) tells a story and 2) incorporates all sorts of cool instruments (I'm a big fan of that) The idea for this song originated as a horror movie that the band's drummer was working on. Instead of trying to make the movie, they just turned it into a song. This song has always meant a lot to me because it deals with the ability of human beings to cling to faith despite huge adversity. The video illustrates that nicely. Rob Zombie -- "Dragula" This one is a FREAKIN' CLASSIC! I've ALWAYS loved the Rob's zombie/carnie style with all of the weird $h! and machines. BTW, most of his songs are written about horror movies and this particular song was written about "Dragula" (the car) from "The Munsters" Zombie is a huge Munsters fan (as am I) The chick dancing, near the end of the video, is his wife Sheri Moon Zombie The Offspring -- "Hammerhead" I like the song and think the video is hella inventive. But I'm not sure if I agree with the message.

I prefer to accomplish something while I'm working out. For example, I LOVED working at UPS. It was one of the best damn workouts I could get, 5 days a week. My strength was probably the highest it's ever been. I also love farm work. Each year we have to get hay for our horses (to feed them during the winter months) Nothin' better than getting a few of your best friends, going out to a field, throwing 600 bails of hay onto a truck(s) and then unloaqding/throwing/stacking the 600 bails in the 2 story barn. Another good, productive workout is splitting and stacking wood. I used to do this a lot when we heated out house via wood stove. And I'm not talking about using a wood splitter, I'm talking about getting a go-devil and swinging it for 3-4 hours. I don't do the commercial gym thing because I can't stand the meatheads there. I always either have some "trainer" harassing me or some cocky SOB 'sizing me up' because I'm so huge. I should do a study about gym membership and personal insecurity... The results would be interesting.

And on that note... I hate to say it, but mission accomplished by the anti-Detroiters. Ford is now virtually non-existant and will probably be liquidated in 5-10 years. Chrysler IS being liquidated and GM is likely to be liquidated next year. Wow. Looks like the media tirade worked.

Why can't the Toyota humpers just accept reality instead of making stupid comments that shift the focus of the argument to things that don't matter? It's the equivalent of a five year old saying; "I know you are but what am I?"

I hope not... I think this is a wise move. Gm's brands are their best asset and if they get to a point in a year or two where they can begin to utilize all of them again, then it'll make for a stronger company. I agree... They do seem clueless most of the time. I don't know if that's actually the case or an intentional front.

Come down off that high horse... You know as well as I do that, with the corruption in the healthcare system, it wouldn't be that cut and dry. Nor wood it be based on fairness or goodwill.

LOL, Yeah... Mine died right in the middle of the flue shop (Didn't even make it to the roundhouse) The GF took the batteries out and said "How many pictures have you taken?!?! The batteries are about 100 degrees!" I said; "Only about one every 15 seconds." Being an amateur photographer AND a history nut DOES NOT PAY in situations like this.

LOL, I thought about getting the "snake bites"... Also thought about sporting the Jonathan Davis look too (3 eyebrow rings) I haven't heard much of the new Disturbed CD. I DO like "Indestructible" but the first song about his friend who committed suicide (and the subsequent awful video) made me not want to hear the rest of the album. I loved and STILL love The Sickness. Believe was too watered down for me. 10,000 Fists was okay, but seems to lack substance... I dunno... I've been very frustrated with Disturbed as of late. I want to love them because I remember the 'edge' that they used to have, but it seems that Draiman now seems to distill all of the intensity out of everything they do. It's almost too scientific or utilitarian to have any emotion or power. Not to count, I like his chanting and growling better than his singing, but since he's had A LOT of vocal problems, I'd say that's probably a thing of the past (for the most part) I'm jealous... I want to see Slipknot so bad, but I don't have the $$$. The new masks are 100% bad ass... My favorite mask has been, and still is #7 (Mic) "Psychosocial" is one of the most bad ass videos I've ever seen. The album isn't all that strong though, IMO. Of course, nothing they'll ever do will compare to the pure, unbridled aggression and angst of the first 2 albums. Iowa is still one of my favorite CDs of all time... I can put it in for 15 minutes and I'll be ready to fight a damn chain saw. It's great! IMO, the chick from Otep is one of the FEW female vocalists in metal that doesn't sound horrible. She actually sounds great!

LOL, It's because I'm a Dr. Pepper FANATIC (seriously) I can literally tell what it came out of and whether it was bottled by Coke or Pepsi. I don't drink excessively (maybe a drink or two every 2 weeks) I don't (have never) smoke(d) anything. I don't do drugs. Overall, I have one bad habit: Dr. Pepper and soft drinks... These people have killed my hobbies one by one (metal, the car companies, anything history related) Now, by god, leave me alone and let me drink my poison. (So what if I am maybe subconsciously trying to kill myself? )