CARBIZ

Dodgefan, now you've depressed the hell out of me. I think I was born 10 years too late: I only got to see these cars in their rusting, falling apart beater days. Every time I see an old movie with street scenes of some American city and all the beautiful be-finned cars (like the original Attack of the 50 Foot Woman and all those stunning Chryslers!), it brings a tear to my eye. When I see all the ugly, boring cars on the road today, it makes me want to scream.

That's the double edged sword: even if it were true that GM built crap, the sheer number of former customers, the media etc. that are rooting for GM to fail is astounding. It's a whole bunch of 'cutting your nose off to spite your face, IMO' Nothing exemplifies the American dream than GM and Ford. So go they, so will go the American way of life - plain and simple. This chipping away at the American way of life by Wal-Mart over the past decade has been death by a thousand cuts, but if Detroit fails, it will be one swift blow. There will be immediate effects (lay-offs by the hundreds of thousands), followed by long term effects (nowhere for future engineers, metalurgists, etc. to find jobs as they graduate.) I've never 'blamed' Toyota. I have a visceral loathing of Japan and the way it conducts business. There are thousands of examples, beyond the auto industry. One need look no further than the fact the Chinese don't trust them - and they are their neighbors! Toyota is merely the largest of the invaders from Japan and, therefore, the biggest target. I do, however, blame the lazy, jaded media. I do blame so-called enthusiasts who lust after $150k exotic cars and trash everything else. I do blame myopic journalists who drive anything from Detroit with an already pre-conceived notion of what they are going to report. I do blame stupid people who base their opinions on what Detroit builds today on their last Detroit vehicle (usually a '82 Fairmont or Citation - if they can even remember what it was!) I've kept a journal for 30 some-odd years, and I know only too well how flawed human memory is. If you repeat a story often enough, with some embellishments for dramatic effect, those 'embellishments' become actual fact in your memory. I know, because I've gone back and reviewed events in my life from 20, 30 years ago and been shocked at details I'd forgotten or BS I'd added. I've challenged customers who bitch about their service costs, only to discover they are exaggerating or lying; and we all know what happens when people are cornered - they become more belligerent! But the bottom line is, as a society, we have become selfish and lazy. Most are unwilling to look beyond the headlines and are very easily swayed by clever PR people - and that is something that Japan Inc has taken advantage of very well over the past couple decades. As outsiders, they have done a better job of seeing our strengths and weaknesses, and as an 'open' society we have allowed them to walk all over us.

I'm not reading too much into this. Politicians have to play games - that's their nature. Once the US economy recovers (probably in mid-2009, IMO), the pent up demand for vehicles will rebound sales and this crisis will pass. GM has many new fuel efficient vehicles in the line up (I'm told the new 'Nox will knock our socks off) and the combination of these new vehicles, pent up demand and the rebounded economy will allow GM to pay back this loan and tell Congress to f-off. Once GMAC gets bank status, perhaps GM can tell the banks to f-off, too.

if GM-DAT is designing the next Aveo, it would make sense to test it in China where it would stay out of the prying eyes of the media - which obviously failed. Current Aveos are coming from Mexico, so I see no reason why they'd come from China in the future.

I beg to differ. It is getting ugly. I just had a customer who drove the Malibu a month ago, then went to drive the Camry and Accord. He called me up 2 weeks ago and said he was ready to buy the Malibu because he like it better and because he likes his current 12 year old Pontiac. When he never showed for his appointment, I called him up and finally got him after a week of his dodging me. Verdict: he is worried about getting parts if GM goes under and he plans to buy the Camry. Let me get this straight, I said, you are going to buy an inferior, more expensive product because you are worried about parts? Like the 3 or 4 million 2.4 litre engines already on the road, plus transmissions and all the other Malibus (baisically the same car since '04) on the road won't have some parts manufacturer step in and supply parts? Customers are running scared and make no mistake: THE IMPORT DEALERS ARE MAKING HAY WITH THIS. You don't think that every customer out there who steps on a Toyota or Honda lot is not going to have that salesman plant fears in that customer's ear? Wait until December's numbers come out. Your Senate hearings never sank home until the end of November. Those of us in the business understand that GM would honor its warranties and protect its customers even before its creditors, workers, brands or dealers, but does the average layperson understand that?

Pass the kool aid, Evok. Exactly. Armchair critics like to blame the latest quarterback for everything, but running a multinational car company is a helluva lot tougher than any football team. The only reason I can see for throwing Wagoner out at this time is for optics, plain and simple. He had nothing to do with GM strangling/ignoring the car market. Lutz was putting out fires as fast as he could (de-cladding Pontiac, axing the new Cavalier, dealing with Olds) and he was brought on board by Wagoner to do something about the product line up, which he has done. It would be interesting to follow the parallel time lines between Toyota's decision with respect to the San Antonio plant plan and GM 'bringing forward' the GMT-900s. Both decisions were made at a time when gas was below $2.50 and both made a lot of sense at the time. Hindsight being 20-20, it would have been better if GM had poured the money into the Cruze or the Volt, but neither decision would have made sense in '04/'05 when the go-ahead for an all new truck would have to have been made (remembering that the pickups got a major refresh in '03 already.) I am sure Cadillac soaked up a lot of development energy as well. If the total bull$h! oil bubble hadn't thrown the train off the tracks in '08, GM would look pretty smart having successfully defended its domination of the pickup market against a third attempt by Toyota. Even in hindsight, I don't see what choice GM had but to defend the only turf it still owns. Luck has a lot to do with success in business, as in life. Toyota gambled on the Prius and (seemingly) won; GM gambled on trucks, and not so much as lost but squandered the cache that those products brought to the company. Timing is everything.

I don't pretend to understand the Fiat debacle. $2b is not chump change, but I'd bet some pretty bad legal advice had a lot to do with it. I don't see why GM backed out of the deal. GM-DAT has turned out to be a pretty good investment. Why not Fiat, too? EDS, Hughes and a few other investments resulted in OnStar. As you know full well, finding an exclusive does give a marketing tool. I'm not entirely convinced OnStar is the end-all and be-all, but GM does have stats to prove that OnStar is growing and there are legions of very loyal customers now because of it. The fact that Toyota and others are scrounging to play catch up is a pretty sound indication that GM is on the right track. Most of these investments were made when GM was raking in the billions - is that not the time when companies diversify and strengthen their position? We are playing retro-history again. It's not like GM could just have kept the cash in the bank; the IRS would be only too happy to relieve GM of it. I agree with you on the PR war. I don't understand how Detroit (and many other American industries, for that matter) have allowed the Japanese to walk into our countries and take over. It says as much about us as a people as it does about Japanese corporate culture. Part of Detroit's past arrogance is really all our shame: Americans (and the West in general) constantly underestimates the strength and tenacity of its 'enemies.' The Saturn argument is disingenuous at best. In this moment of crisis, it may look like a great idea for GM to 'sell' Saturn to a foreign competitor, but why would you want to make it easy for them to gain a toe-hold in our market? Wal-Mart became #1 in Canada over night by buying up all the bankrupt K-Mart stores. I'd bet Eaton's (once Canada's largest, proudest department store chain) would have loved to prevent that if they could. GM may now have no choice but to shut down Saturn, but in my experience of dealing with lawyer's, I can only imagine the quagmire Gm is facing with the myriad of State laws governing the Saturn dealers in the U.S. I suspect that Ford's changes (having only 3 brands, for example) have been easier to handle. Mercury is gone in Canada. I've no idea what that cost them, but I see more Ford stores closing around here than GM. A goodly chunk of GM's problems stem from the fact that they are #1. They always draw the focus of the competition and the ire of the media. Detroit may be an insular place - I can't personally confirm or deny that, but I look at Wagoner's career and I can't think of a better way to promote someone to King other than have that person work their way up and work in many different departments in the kingdom. Mulally may have the advantage of having no allegiances to anyone at Ford; however, I'd still rather have a 'car guy' running a car company than a 'corporate guy.'

The photo is priceless. Are those speech bubbles for real, or did someone photo shop those in? Anyway, good news, I suppose. All I've ever thought GM and Chrysler need at this time is some breathing room to show confidence for the consumer. All else will fall into place.

.... only if you ask nicely!

Wait'll I dig up the photo of li'l 5 year old mini-me sitting up in my dad's big-ass bulldozer. Now that's butch... Let me dig in the archives a bit.

.... as long as it is recyclable, I don't care. :AH-HA_wink:

OCN, hold onto your hat, here's another of that old broad: Balthy - see I come from a family of good taste!

Still, my point is - where do you guys drive? I live in downtown Toronto and park in all kinds of nasty places and I have one tiny nick on my door in 16 months! A nick that our paint guy can fix in a jiffy for free. Do Americans practice demolition derbies at the Mall?

This isn't a Top Five list. This is a list of 5 things that most people don't know. Even I didn't know about 2 of them. Many people know about the catalytic converter, crash test dummy and many other innovations GM is responsible for.

Good grief. Some of you guys think that jettisoning brands/dealers is going to be EASY. This is the way democracies and pure capitalism work: by crisis. No way in hell the UAW would have entertained any sort of compromises 6 months ago. GM was not in this shape six months ago! If 5 million vehicles hadn't been wiped out of the US market, GM would most likely be on track with its health care spin offs, new vehicle launches, normal dealer attrition, etc. and would have been profitable by next year, like the Board had projected. To entertain wiping out brands, more lay offs or legions of dealers can only be done under the threat of death - OR ARE YOU GUYS UNAWARE THERE ARE LAWS THAT GOVERN THIS SORT OF THING? This may just be the best thing to happen to GM, frankly, but it is going to be painful.

Maybe you should learn to drive better. I've never worried about dents or rust in any cars I've owned.

I vote for the bank option, too. When I read about the total incompetence/corruption over at CITI and what they have done the past few years, it makes my blood boil. Let them swallow this poison pill. After all, it is their f'ing fault we are all circling the toilet.

What more is there to say? If the current economic crisis doesn't kill GM, pouring all their money into the Volt (which won't sell at $2 a gallon) could. Sub $30 a barrel is a disaster on so many levels. This is going to delay so many projects that could make North America get off oil dependency.

...partsgirl, I feel your pain. I've made about HALF of what I did last year, although changing dealerships has had a lot to do with it. I keep telling myself that we just gotta make it through to the 3rd quarter of '09, but the way I am burning up my savings, I dunno. It's pretty grim. There are dealers that didn't even deliver 20 new cars last month.

I don't think you'd last very long on a Board.

At my (now ex) brother-in-law's stag, we went to a well known airport strip club. I was the DD and the lone gay (as far as I know.) All the guys at our table were yakking away, swapping BS stories. I was the only one watching the poor girls up on stage. Some of them were good! I especially liked the one who could hang herself upside down on the brass pole, with her legs spread and slowly spiral down the pole until she was laying on the floor. None of the straight guys were watching. These girls were talented - even with their nasty bits hanging out all over place.

That's why Canada has fought (and paid for) aerospace companies, like Bombardier and the Canadarm. Ever sine the Avro Arrow went down in flames, Canada nearly became a 3rd rate country in terms of R&D. I'd love to see some figures for the amount of R&D money Detroit spends in a given year, versus say Silicon Valley. I think those numbers would be interesting.

No, she bought a brand new CR-V in June. Because my Aunt Rita knows more about cars than I do.

This is really only the tip of the iceberg. In a future that will be determined by technology and information (as China, Japan and others send rockets into space, for example), the future will be controlled by intellectual property. GM, Ford and Chrysler have a lot of intellectual property. If they fail, those patents and properties would be up for grabs and probably would be transferred to a foreign power. Detroit also employs a lot of engineers, scientists, etc. and future 'discoveries' will belong to them. Or Japan Inc. Just more to think about as Joe Public doesn't give a rat's ass about Detroit.