CARBIZ

Actually, Jeep (before Chrysler) had a full-sized SUV back in the early '80s (maybe even the late '70s) that had the fake wood panelling and all the power goodies. I remember seeing them around, back in the day. I am pretty sure they were called Cherokee or Grand Cherokee. Still, this is splitting hairs. When the S-10 came out in '81, followed by the Blazer/Jimmy, they were pretty revolutionary for their day. Two doors or not, a lot of them were sold up here. Ford beat GM with a 4 door version, but as was pointed out before, the Suburban has been around for many decades.

I've tried to stay out of this discussion (Congrats, BTW), but selling a $20k for $200 'over invoice' sounds fishy. Think about it: they have to pay one or two drivers to get the vehicle, they have to re-PDI it at their expense (GM only credits the original dealer for the PDI), they have to pay the clean up guy and commission the salesperson - for $200? Wow. Glad I don't sell cars down in the U.S. If those numbers are true (and they don't sell cars down there like Chrysler does here, with all kinds of 'hold backs' and other crap), then frankly the dealer is in the hole! Better pick the car up quick, the dealer won't be around long to deliver it!

Road signs in India are mere suggestions. I would want a Hummer in India, to feel safe! Lack of power steering is actually okay in smaller cars. Remember, the pump requires hp to run, and this car doesn't have much hp to spare!

..does that mean you're going to post MORE on C&G Is that even possible?

The Volt made it to the front page of the Financial Post's Business magazine, seen all across Canada. There is a great article about the technology and about GM's 'saving' the electric car. Whether the Volt is a success or not, GM has already torn a page out of the Toyota propaganda book, which is in of itself a turn-around for GM!

Yeah, I was thinking that, too, FOG. The Corvair was a huge flop - it sold, what, well over a million copies. (I'm too lazy to look it up, but it sold more than 100k per year for 9 or 10 years, you do the math!) Sure, the Valiant and Falcon were more 'mainstream' but kudos has to be given to GM in the day when it dared to explore the possibilities.

Nearly 60 degrees (for you Americans) here over night! In January. It's starting to melt my igloo! :AH-HA_wink:

Excellent read. I wonder if historians will look upon the first decade of the 21st Century for the auto industry the same way we do at the early '70s: a 'perfect storm' of congruent forces that rocked the industry. The more things change, the more they stay the same. Thirty years ago, it was the introduction of federal crash standards, pollution controls (unleaded fuel, catalytic converters) and two 'oil shocks' that rocked Detroit. Now, the tightening of CAFE rules, oil shocks (again), the future of 'fair trade' and the further splintering of the auto market as new technologies emerge that will be the challenges of the next couple decades. None of this can be easy for GM, Ford or Chrysler. Whether Wagoner is the right man for the job, only time will tell, but the trend is certainly encouraging, IMO. There is still much to be done: reducing the dealer body and firming up the brand identities strike me as the most challenging - assuming the entire Volt thing is in the bag.

Yeah, we get a 4 year DICTATORSHIP, too! NOt that I can vote down there, but Who the hell is Joseph Biden???? 68% Hilary 66% Kucinich? 63% All good fun. I can't say I'd want to move to Antarctica if Hilary won.

I haven't laughed that hard all day! It is refreshing to see someone have fun with their job. Gawd knows if more flight attendants were like him, we might actually pay attention to the safety instructions.

This is all so silly and pointless: 7,000 units sold in December? That is, like, 140 per State if you average it out. What are the odds of seeing one? Oh, and did that 7,000 units include the Frozen Hinterland? In which case the odds are even less. Give it another couple months. Let's see what the first quarter of '08's sales are for the Malibu, year over year.

Oh, F$#K OFF!

The Mini (as with the Smart Car) is actually a very safe car. They have both been over engineered that way. But here is where the selfish part kicks in: yes, if you are driving a Tahoe and I am driving a Mini and we collide head on, I am going to lose. Pure physics. However, if we are both driving Minis, then we are equal. There is no such thing as an accident. Driver skill always plays a part. $h! happens. You can be killed in a Tahoe or a Mini. It grates on my nerves whenever I hear a customer say,"yeah, we want (insert the name of your favorite SUV here) because we sit up higher and we can see ahead," because I think to myself, "yeah, f$#khead, does it occur to you that because YOU are up higher nobody else behind you can see?" It's all relative. No matter how you slice it, it is a crime to have 4,500 lbs of steel and plastic around you to transport 175 lbs of person to work every day. Again, physics. Things will have to change. The only choices we have now are whether we want to do it the nice way, gradually, or by a war or something worse in, say, 10 or 15 years from now.

We're probably only a few years away from having most retail environments videotaped, just like many phone calls are now. I've worked in retail all my life and although there are a lot of scumbag salespeople/clerks out there, I have witnessed the severe decline of the level of honesty in customers. People only hear what they want to. One of the big challenges for many areas of our countries is the differences in culture. WASPs use words like 'could,' should,' 'perhaps' and 'maybe,' but various cultures don't recognize attempts at politeness. A great manager/mentor of mine taught me the differences in dealing with various types of people, and there are some nationalities that do not respect politeness and will seize upon any form of hesitation as a doorway to what they want. None of use were present during the transaction; therefore, we don't know what both sides said or did. I was raised with the philosophy 'never hit a lady,' but how many 'ladies' are out there anymore? When I had my video stores, I had to eject a young woman because she started using the F-word when things didn't go her way, then her mother (in her '40s) came storminng in from the parked car outside and immediately started using the F-word! People are lied to all the time, so the level of frustration has escalated. I'll bet in this case we are discussing, both parties should sit in the corner for an hour and go without supper tonight!

Well, Enzl, if you're right, we should know fairly quickly: both Ford and Chrysler are being run by 'outsiders' and their turnarounds should be well under way before the Volt comes to market. Then we will see whether the smoke was merely a grease fire or the beginnings of a conflagration. I've seen many good companies run into the ground by outsiders who tried to transplant their ideas into a different culture. It is true that fresh blood can be good, but I thought that is what Wagoner and company did with Lutz. GM's problems go back decades and what has happened in the past few years since Lutz came on board has been fairly significant. I am sure many of us on this Board feel your frustration, Enzl, Gawd knows I am living it, but constantly carping about every failing of GM's doesn't solve the problem either. Not throwing in with the enemy is certain a big way to help the situation. As many of you have heard me say before, the company I work for owns a couple Toyota stores and recently 'gave back' its GM franchise (whatever that means!). I have been wooed by Toyota and am resigning my position on Monday. I will not work for Toyota - or anyone who works with Toyota. I would rather do dishes or work for McDonalds. Many of GM's problems at this juncture stem from the fact that too many dealers threw in with Toyota 30 or 40 years ago, taught Toyota everything it needs to know, and have been feeding Toyota insider information for DECADES. This is one of the issues that must stop. These people are despicable, in my view. If people had stood up for what they saw happening in 1933, we would not have been dragged into the debacle that was to become WWII. My view is the same today: we are witnessing a cataclysmic collapse of the Western World and we are just all sitting back, tsk tsking, but letting other people pull the weight. We have to stop fighting each other and pull together...or we had all better learn to use chopsticks. Sigh. This is all too weighty for a Saturday night. I'm going to go out and get drunk.

No, but we are breeding a nation of idiots who can't think for themselves. Technology must do everything for them. I have read so many SF books that cover this nightmare scenario where we cocoon into technology and don't interact with our environment at all. Whether it is cell phone use, nav systems, remote controls for our remote controls, or whatever - we are being dumbed down to the lowest common denominator. How many under 30 year olds can even do multiplication tables in their heads any more? I hated my grade 5 math teacher (1972), but he threw multiplication tables on our desks at least once a week and we were timed to complete it. I'd kiss the man if I met him now...er, maybe not.

Oldsmobile's demise hurt Canada more than the U.S. because Chevrolet is much weaker here and because Chev-Olds were allied, as P-B-GMC always has. All the power house stores in the greater Toronto area are P-B-GMC. Three Chev stores have closed in Toronto in the past 3 months (or are about to close.) GM lied to the dealer body by telling them that GM-DAT product was going to fill the gap, then promptly caved to the P-B-GMC dealer's whining and gave them the Wave (Aveo), cancelled the Epica (no loss, really) and also the Optra 5 and wagon. So where did that promise go? I can't comment on whether it was a long term mistake or not, but I do know that several of my 'new Canadian' customers who had owned Oldsmobile since coming to Canada went and bought imports after Olds went away because the only defense they had against their import-loving spawn was that Olds had brought them 'good luck.' With Olds gone, said parents had no more defense and caved to their hatchlings' rabbling and bought Acuras or whatever. I personally don't see why Pontiac or Buick has to go away, but GM absolutely must stop this tit-for-tat product duplication just for the sake of keeping certain power brokers happy. The Torrent was a travesty, to name one. If GM can differentiate Pontiac and Buick to be destinct, but give Chevrolet the tools it needs to compete against Toyota (ie., competitive small SUV and a world-class small car), then GM will have a future. Otherwise, it will just continue to be a downward spiral of closing dealers, diminishing market share and eventually either (or both) Pontiac and Buick will have to go away.

Nobody is forcing anyone to do anything. Even in Brazil, where they are routinely paying more than $8 a gallon, I saw quite a few Grand Blazers (Tahoes) and Explorers. Drive on any highway there and they, too, are choked with trucks. People will get used to smaller cars and smaller engines, just like we once did in the '80s. What has happened in the past 15-20 years is a bit of a bubble, really. GM may not be in this mess if they'd kept on the track they were heading in the mid-80s (with the introduction of new technologies that emphasized fuel economy, not performance), but the truck bubble side tracked all of that. As I said on an earlier thread, I drove a Cooper S for a few days recently, 6 spd and all, it was a blast. Smaller cars need not be boring. It is just what we are used to. I miss my father's '69 Chrysler 300, but those days will never come back.

She was buying a Ridgeline, if I was the defense attorney I'd want to have her mental state estabished first....... Although there is no excuse for physical violence, I have seen my fair share of arguments with service advisors, managers, even sales people escalate with customers into shouting matches where the customer has had to be physically ejected. It's not limited to just the auto business either. More than once, I've come to clerk's rescue at a cell phone kiosk or grocery store when a nasty customer was becoming abusive. It all just boils down to the lack of respect/victimhood society we live in today. Who knows what the full story of this was. That is what the courts are for. I've seen dealers make mistakes and cancel deals because of an error, but you never hear the customer complain when the dealer lets them out of a deal that didn't favor them. So much can happen when computer screens are changed or when a customer changes their mind 5 times on make/model/equipment/lease/finance, then it is suddenly the dealer's fault when the error is caught later.

It's only common sense: in any 'argument,' as soon as you become emotional (and your temper) you automatically lose credibility. Passion is one thing, but name calling and screaming quite another. Anger may be impossible to control inwardly, but controlling it outwardly is essential.

All any of this is proving is something that we've known all along anyway: Toyota's PR machine (backed up, BTW, by MITI and the full weight of the Japanese government - something Detroit does not enjoy in our self-hating culture) is superior to GM's. GM did take the high road with hybrid bus technology and whether successful or not, the Fiat (hindsight) fiasco was an attempt at a short cut to small diesels. All the while, Toyota's PR machine cranked out 'hybrid' vehicles whose long-term success (read: landfills full of batteries) has yet to be determined. So GM has had to roll out hybrids to stem a PR war that they were (are?) clearly losing. So what. Their investment in Ballard and their direction with the Volt are indications that the game for the 21st Century has yet to be written. Nobody, not even your blessed Toyota knows where this is headed. The only thing that Toyota is good at is brainwashing the muelling masses that they are the Second Coming. What mode of transportation we will be driving in 2020 is anyones guess at this point. I am hoping and willing to commit my future with GM. f@#k Toyota, I say, and anyone who throws in with them.

Wasn't Lutz working for Excide when Wagoner grabbed him? Didn't GM invest heavily in Ballard Systems in Canada? Didn't they have a couple hundred all electric vehicles on the road for a few years that they scrapped? When did you have the Bat phone installed from the RenCen anyway, Enzl?

The thing I like about Enzl is that he makes me look like the eternal optimist. Keep up the good work! I read all the supposedly reputable journals and it seems like whenever GM starts getting some good press, the same old antogonists have to roll out the same old pessimistic arguments. Who was it that said, whether you believe you can or whether you believe you can't, you will be right? We have aired GM's failings to death on this site (and Gawd knows other sites love to do it too!), but I am not about to get all riled up about one piece in the media. As I have said before, the fact that Toyota has cranked up its PR machine against the Volt is good enough for me.

FOG, you're dreaming about the gouging thing on oil. Yes, right now there is a lot of speculating and gouging happening: it seems like every time some dictator farts, the price of oil jumps a few dollars a barrel, but the U.S. as a nation has to face it that in the near future there is going to be a lot of competition for oil. China is the new colossus and it will require a new Saudi Arabia in the next 15 years to satiate its demand. Do you want to go to war (again) over oil, but this time with China? The dictators may be doing us a favor by getting us used to $100 a barrel. I remember 3 years ago economists predicted economic ruin over $50 a barrel. Well, look - so far, the sky hasn't fallen. But we have to START in the right direction (whatever that direction may be) NOW. Don't forget, it takes oil to fuel the jet fighters and tanks. America doesn't have a lot of oil left.