Drew Dowdell

Lets play "Name the unwarranted assumptions"! 1. you assume a new RL will be the same price as the current one. 2. you assume a new RL will have a 400+ hp V8 as the base engine. 3. you assume that Cadillac is standing still.... remember, the HF engines were designed with turbocharging in mind and their displacement can be increased to almost 4 litres.

You drive a Northstar. You know there is more to that engine than the numbers indicate. I brought up the DTS because if you're going to spend 46k and want a nice compliant ride, you can't get much plusher than the DTS. Not everyone wants to be carving up canyon roads or drag racing in their luxury car. The fact that the DTS still outsells the DTS retail is proof of that. The STS could be better. The outside is very attractive with the update.... now if they had only but a CTS styled interior in it and only sold the extended wheelbase model sold in China it would sell better. As it is, even in it's damaged state, Cadillac still has more prestige at this dollar level than Acura. The difference here is that Cadillac could sell the STS with it's current formula plus a few tweaks. Acura is going to have to completely re-write the RL if they want to play here. Acura has never played here.... Cadillac has.. and they just need to get their mojo back.

uh... what? 48k is a loaded CTS... 46k is pretty close.

It is exceedingly hard to justify the RL at $46,000 when for the same price you can get the more exciting CTS with AWD, STS V8 or DTS with a better ride, the more prestigious 3 or 5 series BMWs, the better value holding Lexus GS, the safer S60 and S80, the more stylish A6, the substantially more powerful Chrysler 300c SRT-8, the more snobish C-class and E-class. in fact, the only luxury car in this price range that is less relevant than the RL would be the Infiniti M-Class.

Except that the F-150 and Silverado are still considered by the media <up until this year> as the "ideal" trucks on the market. Notice however the media's great efforts to steer people towards the new Tundra even in light of the fact that it is a clearly inferior product if only in terms of reliability <yes, a warping tailgate is unreliable>.... and one year into the media j/o and it's already starting to have an effect. No, Toyota won't sell 800k pickups in it's first year on the full size market.... but they got close to 200k with only two body styles and no HD options. To put this in perspective, they sold nearly 1/2 as many Tundras as they did Camrys in the first year of their first real entry into the full sized truck market. They did this with the help of the car rags in spite of the numerous quality issues and design flaws in the truck. You can't say that there isn't an "imported is better" mentality in this country, stoked by the media, when you look at a vehicle like the Tundra that is eclipsed entirely by the domestics, has numerous majors problems, yet still manages to take down almost 200k sales in it's first year.... one year after the fantabulously new GMT-900s came on the market. If you are right... and vehicles are judged solely on their merits and not on the preconceived notions of the public and media, then the Tundra should fade into obscurity like the Titan has. As much as I'd love to see the Tundra fade into obscurity, dontthinkitsgonnahappen.com

Suzy McMansion wouldn't be caught dead in a GM product, first because it isn't imported, second, the press and automotive "experts" like you have decreed that BMW is the ideal car that all others should try to emulate. Any car that falls short of BMW's performance benchmark is crap regardless of other attributes (See: every SMK post about the '08 CTS). You and I have had this same basic argument before. The definition of "luxury" has changed substantially in the last 30 years... however, this change was brought about mostly by media based "ideals". An early '80s BMW 3 is nothing more than a Hi-PO RWD Jetta without the reliability. In the 70s and 80s, luxury was defined by soft plush seats, effortless steering, gobs of torque, silent engines, large cabins and trunks, and smooth compliant rides. Today luxury is defined in 0-60 times, Gs, firm bolstered seats, cockpit like cabin, "pleasing exhaust note" whatever that is, and hi-reving engines. Neither definition is "better" than the other.... however one is marketed as "better" through traditional advertising and the automotive media and "experts" like you. BMW and Honda have religious cult like followings.... however most of the members cannot justify their desires outside of group think preferences. If GM were really smart they would market the new Saturns as "Imported from Europe" or some such..... just those 3 little words would help sales tremendously.

my new sig

Or do.not.want.

GM was in a no win scenario then unless they just bought the tooling from Honda and started cranking out Accord badge jobs. the 1979-1985 Riviera/Eldorado/Toronado were the best selling years for those nameplates. When they downsized them and made them more "Euro" in 1986 sales plummeted. The Toronado never recovered, the Riv was saved by an update in 1990 and the Eldorado was saved by the 1993 redesign.... however, the redesigns and updates brought the cars back into the "traditional American" camp. GM kept the RWD G-bodies in production and sold them alongside their FWD replacements for a year because buyers were staying away from the new models yet still buying the old ones. You can't tell me people were buying Cutlass Supreme Classics instead of the FWD model because they wanted a more import feel. No, it was more the overall anti-domestic feeling that was sweeping all industries in the 1980s. People were buying imports because even at the honda/chevy level it was more prestigious to do so. Why do people buy San Pellegrino instead of Deer Park?.... water is water. Time warp back to 1988 and take some surveys of people on the street... Who is the best automobile manufacturer? Answer will most likely be Honda or Toyota Who is the best T.V. manufacturer? Answer will most likely be Sony Who makes the best VCR? Sony The sad part was... there really was no justification behind the answers. There was a "Japanese is always better" mentality that swept through the country at that time.... the carcasses of our American industry are proof of that. There really is no answer to the questions "Which is a better car Accord or Delta 88?" or "Which is a better car Accord or Grand Prix?"... because the differences in quality were minimal. The "which is better?" decisions boiled down to subjective preferences. I'll pick a 3800 over a buzzy torqueless Honda 4-cylinder any day of the week.... but that is my preference.... that doesn't make the 3800 better.... nor does someone else's desire to spin their engine up to 8,900 RPM just to get to 45mph during their morning commute make the Honda engine better. You compared the Accord to the Bonneville and compared their fuel economy. I'll save the "comparing cars of two completely different size classes is idiotic" rant for more modern cars... but, the 88 Accord was about the same size as today's Civic. Just try and put 5<or 6> Adults in the Accord.... plus luggage.... and then if you even manage that, try and get the Accord to go uphill. It just won't happen. This is something the Bonneville and it's H-body sisters could manage without breaking a sweat. This mentality carried on for 2 decades across all of our American industries.... and now look where we are. Mortgaged out the wazoo to the Chinese, manufacturing industry is dead, and we've turned into a "service based" economy.. which roughly translates to Walmart Cashier. I make no apologies for buying American whenever I can. Other people may find American products to be inferior, however that is mostly from them being brainwashed into what their priorities are. There is nothing you can say that will convince me that Susy McMansion is better served by a BMW 3-series for pulling through the Starbucks drive through than she would be in a CTS or Lucerne. Does Susy McMansion even know her car can pull a G in a turn... or is she more concerned with making Tammy Trailerpark at work jealous?

That's because it takes a while to put 50,000 miles on it at a 45 mph top speed.

but on what basis? Would you have been looking for a super fuel efficient commuter or the most car for your dollar. A loaded Delta 88 had nearly every wiz bang feature GM could throw at it and it was the same price as a loaded Accord. With the Delta, you got more features, more comforts, great reliability and longevity, and more safety.... but if you were after gas mileage... then yea, I could see how you'd prefer an 87 horsepower tin can.

I'm not talking about more car in terms of mass. Even in 1988 the W-bodies and Taurus were more crash worthy than the Accord. The Grand Prix came with at least a V6 which, while not a nascar engine, did put more than 87 horsepower down to the pavement. It was also available in a manual transmission. It was also new for 1988... so I can't see how it was "me too" styling. It did NOT look like an 87 Taurus which was the styling trend setter of the day. They had fully independent suspension, 4 wheel disk brakes, and a host of other features not available on the Accord. Go sit in an 88 Accord... they are NOTHING special. An 88 GP will eat an 88 Accord in performance and features and an '88 Delta 88 will eat an 88 Accord in terms of luxury, creature comforts... and probably still straight line performance. Those H bodies were very very reliable as well...so you can't even hold reliability up as a Honda win. This was at a time when Honda was really starting to eat into GM's sales..... but how many 1988 Accords are there out there?

how about 20 years ago? A 1988 Honda Accord maxed out at $15,650... an Oldsmobile Delta 88 Royal Brougham maxed out at $15,490. Even in 1988 the 88 was MUCH more car than the Accord. The Accord based at $11,000 for the stripped out hatchback. Same base price as a Grand Prix. Again, GM offers much more car. Heck, even an 88 Taurus base was the same price as the hatchback Accord. Oh I forgot, Car and Driver said it's the best.... so people back in 1988 packed their common sense into a box and put it in the attic then ran out and promptly bought a stripped out a stripped out 1988 Accord hatchback with a pavement shredding 87 horsepower and all the crash worthiness of a cardboard box while passing up the new for 1988 Motor Trend Car of the Year Grand Prix. Because Hondas are somehow "better". Fast forward 10 years to 1998. Accord and Camry are now king. Yet somehow Intrigue and Eighty Eight still offer more car for the money. Suzy School Teacher buys an Accord anyway under the pretense of being youthful and sporty in a 150hp Accord DX automatic. Honda decides to add a V6 to it's midsized car 18 years after joining that market. The V6's horsepower? 200..... 5 less than the "old" 3800 in the Intrigue and Eighty Eight. I'm sure you know who wins on torque. I bet you'll bring up fuel efficiency.... in 1998 I was filling up my Lincoln Continental for 76 cents a gallon. Fuel efficiency wasn't really on the radar. Now... in 2008, there is the Accord and the Chevy Malibu. The GM still wins on value... and most agree that it wins on looks. Performance numbers are similar..... so... after 20 years.... why do we not buy American again? There is no way, looking at the above, that Honda was offering a clearly better product. It's only "clear" if you're looking through the lenses of Honda and Driver or Honda Consumer Reports..... and you can somehow rationalize the idea that driving a 4 cylinder anemic automatic Japanese car is somehow "sporty" and "European".

I think I'm going to faint..... they actually grasp physics!?! Does this mean no more idiotic comparisons of 5-series sized Cadillacs to 3-series BMWs even though the price is the same?!?! No... it can't be true!

people drive at an over all slower top speed here, however we're quite heavy on the acceleration.

No knocks against the Audi. They are nice drives but the reputation of electrical gremlins would have to be cured before I'd buy one. I still think we need to trade CTSes for a week..... mine feels nothing like you describe. I'm getting 19.5 around town right now and I rarely even exceed 55mph anymore.

I see a whole aftermarket popping up for this! You can download "drivetones" for your car. Want your car to sound like an Enzo? download it How about a Model T? download it. Personally, I'll have the subtle "thump thump" of a Galaxy class starship warp core for my car. Extra bonus if it makes the "go to warp sound" when you really mash the pedal.

In this case, it's being consumed with a straw....

None without a replacement.... and a few should be added. The EXT is a pure profit vehicle for GM, why would you cancel a high dollar badge job that isn't damaging the brand? It cost GM nothing to develop. Chevy Avalanche + Escalade nose + Escalade interior. You can't get much more parts bin than the EXT... so if it sells..even a little bit.. and does nothing to harm the brand image. Keep it.

I always found the C's shape and style to be kind of awkward. It's not that stellar a ship to fly either <in Star Trek: Legacy or Armada II with the patch>. The D is more powerful and the B is more maneuverable. The E is just overdone style wise. my order.. and to keep this kind of automotive relevant: Excelsior class: '66 Oldsmobile Toronado, long sleek with nice curves but still has lines where it should have lines, looks fast, is fast, handles only so-so Galaxy class: BMW 750i-L that Dinan worked over, obviously built for comfort, but damn if you want to f@#k with it. Constitution class - refit: 1996 Chevy Caprice LT1, fairly unassuming, Goes by the Winston Churchill quote "If you're going through hell, keep going." Sovereign class: Dodge Charger SRT-8 - looks mean, just raw power Ambassador class: '08 Honda Accord, looks awkward from certain angles, others are faster, others handle better, but she'll always get ya home.

Truth!

They're probably right... but that doesn't have anything to do with your love of cars...