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  • G. David Felt
    G. David Felt

    By G. David Felt •

    Alternative Energy, what is the logical next step for America Part III.

      Alternative Energy, what is the logical next step for America Part III?

      Join me as I write about the various forms of alternative energy and how I see them stacking up in today’s market place.

      Hydro, Geothermal and Wind

    G. David Felt

    Staff Writer Alternative Energy - CheersandGears.com

    September 25, 2012

    conventional_renewable_energy_sources.gif

    Alternative Energy, what is the logical next step for America Part III?

    Join me as I write about the various forms of alternative energy and how I see them stacking up in today’s market place.

    Hydro, Geothermal and Wind

    While excellent in being renewable energy for use by homes and businesses, Hydro, Geothermal and Wind lack the ability to drive an auto by itself. When combined with alternative forms of creating energy, these three renewable forms of energy can truly make a difference.

    Hydropower, water powered cars or hydrogen/oxygen powered cars using 100% water as fuel is real. Splitting water by electrolysis and creating hydrogen/oxygen gas or Hydroxy gas, the molecules are bonded together positively in a ortho hydrogen state. Due to the power of this gas, you do not store it so it must be made as you drive. The special alternator generates amps to run the special stainless steel cell that allows this gas to be created and used to run the engine. One can research Stan Meyer’s Water Powered Dun Buggy to see what this technology is capable of. Yet with all the potential possible, either we have a true conspiracy from the oil companies with this technology being killed off or a solid scam. You decide!

    Now you have the alternative Hydrogen powered cars that rely on tanks, a hydrogen stations and what most engineers call the PEM (polymer exchange membrane) fuel cell. The PEM fuel cells have the advantage of being light and small. They consist of two electrodes ( a negatively charged anode and a positively charged cathode), a catalyst and a membrane. Hydrogen is forced into the fuel cell at the anode in the form of H2 molecules, each of which contains two hydrogen atoms. A catalyst at the anode breaks the molecules into hydrogen ions (the protons) and a flow of electricity (the electrons). The ions pass through the membrane, but the electricity has to go around. While it's doing so, it can be harnessed to do work. Just as hydrogen is forced into the fuel cell at the anode, oxygen is forced in at the cathode. The protons and electrons reunite at the cathode and join with the oxygen to form water, most of which become the fuel cell's exhaust. Fuel cells are designed to be flat and thin, mainly so they can be stacked. The more fuel cells in the stack, the greater the voltage of the electricity that the stack produces.

    Fuel cells have two major advantages over fossil fuels. First, they don't deplete the world's finite supply of oil, which helps us preserve the existing supplies and they could also reduce our dependency on foreign oil. Second, the only byproduct from a fuel cell's operation is heat and water, which means fuel cells don't produce pollution. This is vitally important in a time when carbon emissions from cars are believed to be promoting global warming.

    Perhaps a more important question is how the hydrogen itself will be produced. Given that hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe, constituting roughly 90 percent of the atoms in existence, you'd think that this wouldn't be a problem. Well, think again. Hydrogen is also the lightest element in the universe and any uncontained hydrogen on the surface of the Earth will immediately float off into outer space. What hydrogen remains on this planet is bound with other elements in molecular form, most commonly in water (H2O) molecules. And there happens to be a lot of H2O on the surface of the Earth.

    But how do we separate the hydrogen molecules in the water from the oxygen molecules? And if we don't use water as a hydrogen source, where else can we get hydrogen?

    The simplest way of getting hydrogen from water is the one that Sir William Grove knew about more than 150 years ago: electrolysis. If you pass an electric current through water, the H2O molecules break down. Similar to fuel cell operation, this process uses an anode and a cathode, usually made from inert metals. When an electric current is applied to the water, hydrogen forms at the cathode, and oxygen forms at the anode. Although this process is slow, it can be done on a large scale.

    An alternative source for hydrogen is natural gas, which consists of naturally occurring hydrocarbons. A process called steam reformation can be used to separate the hydrogen in the gas from the carbon. At present, this is the most common method of industrial-scale production of hydrogen and would likely be the first method used to produce the hydrogen for fuel-cell vehicles. Unfortunately, this process uses fossil fuels -- the natural gas -- so if the point of building cars that run on hydrogen is to avoid depleting fossil fuel reserves, natural gas would be the worst possible source of this fuel yet with North America having the largest reserves in the world we have a 150-200 year step to the eventual holy grail of renewable energy with almost none if not truly no carbon footprint of green house gas.

    Some experts have suggested that it might be possible to build miniature hydrogen plants that will fit in the average person's garage, so it won't even be necessary to drive to the local fueling station to fill up the car's hydrogen tank. The most extreme form of this idea has been the suggestion that electrolysis could be performed inside the car itself, which would make possible the astounding idea of a car that runs on water! However, the power for the electrolysis has to come from some sort of battery, so a water-powered car would need to be periodically recharged.

    Your three biggest challenges to a Hydro car is cost of developing the hydrogen technology. Platinum is the most widely used catalyst in fuel cells leaving one with a 100K fuel cell cost. Storage is a thorny problem. Hydrogen is a gas that likes to spread out so compression into a reasonable size while dealing with expansion issues from warm days means that your tank would vent out and in a couple days you would have no fuel to run the car if it was sitting for days, this on top of the explosion factor due to being highly flammable. One only needs to remember the Hindenburg. Fortunately, hydrogen fires are not as hot as gas fires and less likely to start a secondary fire. Third challenge, Hydrogen is it really nonpolluting? A fuel cell only produces heat and water as exhaust but the process to create the hydrogen in not necessarily clean. Electrolysis uses electricity and that electricity will often come from plants that burn coal, a highly polluting source. And when hydrogen is extracted from natural gas, it produces carbon emissions, which is exactly what we're trying to avoid by using hydrogen in the first place.

    Geothermal

    Think back to your grade school science class about using the heat lying deep beneath the Earth’s surface. As we look to alternative ways to reduce our dependence on Fossil Fuels, it is not uncommon that every potential energy source is being considered as a replacement. How can geothermal power your car?

    Geothermal energy resources include an array of earth-sourced energy, including heat found below shallow ground, hot water and rock found a few miles deeper, and even the extremely high-temperature molten rock known as magma, lying deep beneath the surface of the Earth, according to the U.S. Department of Energy.

    Although it has garnered more attention of late, heat from the Earth, or geothermal energy, has been warming water that then seeps into underground reservoirs since the beginning of time. With temperatures reaching extremely high levels, from 225 to 600 degrees F, these reservoirs form a usable source of energy that can then be used to produce electricity. In fact, the U.S. has used geothermal energy from reservoirs such as these to generate electricity at power plants for the past 50 years. As research continues on how to extract and use this renewable energy, expect geothermal energy to continue to become more competitive on a cost basis with fossil fuels. As supplies of fossil fuels dwindle, geothermal technology will already be in place to shoulder the energy needs.

    Currently, three types of electric generating plants have been developed to utilize geothermal energy. Used since 1960 as a replacement fuel for coal and other fossil fuels to generate electricity, technologies relying on geothermal energy have been developed primarily in three ways to power electric generation plants. One of these is known as dry steam. In this technology, steam from underground wells is used to turn a turbine that then activates a generator to produce electricity. However, due to a lack of underground steam resources, the only dry steam plant generation in the U.S. is at The Geysers in California. In binary cycle technology, heat from reservoirs of temperatures between 225 and about 350 degrees F is used to boil a working fluid that is then vaporized in a heat exchanger and used to power a generator. Water from this process can be injected back into the ground to begin the process again. But the most common kind of geothermal-powered electric plant is the flash steam plant that makes use of water from reservoirs of high temperatures, brought up through wells where it boils into steam and is then used to power a generator. Leftover water and steam can be returned to the reservoir for reuse.

    Geothermal resources are geographically favored. Although geothermal heat pumps can be used throughout the country, electric generating plants and direct-use systems are limited in the western states because geothermal resources are geographically concentrated in the western U.S. Part of the reason for the geographical limitations are that drilling technology is current limited to development of geothermal resources from shallow water or steam-filled reservoirs, which again, are found primarily in the west.

    So while this has enormous potential for clean power generation to power electrical cars, we have multiple limitations at this time for being a favorable source of fuel. One is the charge time for electric cars; two the distance an electric car can travel and three is the current state of development of geothermal power. For these reasons this is not a replaceable form of fuel for petrol.

    Wind

    The idea of a wind-powered car is nothing new. Back in the 1960s, Douglas Aircraft engineer Andrew Bauer allegedly created a working prototype of a "directly downwind faster than the wind," or DDWFTTW, vehicle. However, no official records exist exploring whether it was faster than the wind.

    Today you have an engineer Richard Jenkins who dreams of creating a vehicle that can use air to power a auto and in the process set his own land speed record. You can find much on the Greenbird built by Richard yet while the autos are propelled and driven by wind. There is still the large scale production of such a car and the need for constant wind to make them a reality.

    The issue of cars powered by wind electricity is less one of supply and demand, and more one of sociological and cultural shifts in habits and thinking. Going from miles per gallon to kilowatt hours per mile means more than plunking a battery where the gas tank used to be. It's about changing driving habits, travel habits and even our concept of working and commuting. But when (and if) these cultural traditions are changed, wind power would still come up short on supply. Sure, it could generate the necessary power, but only if there were enough wind farms and only if there were enough ways to distribute the power -- if and if and if. But the wind is a fickle beast, despite modern forecasting techniques. Wind is seasonal, wind is dependent on storms and wind is variable and changeable -- much more so than human behavior.

    The best bet on wind is where wind is a constant, so that wind generators can create the electricity that can go into charging auto’s this can have a very small carbon foot print and yet we still end up with the shortages of an electric auto.

    What we need to be asking ourselves and demanding for US independence is as follows:

    What is the logical next step to remove our dependence on Oil from other countries while allowing us to move to the next better fuel for auto’s?

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    dwightlooi

    First of all, lets get one thing straight. If alternative energy sources are economical, they won't need subsidies and laws encouraging, or requiring, their adoption to exist. The fact is that they aren't economical. Burning coal, oil and gas to generate power or to run you automobile remains the most cost effective means of powering our society's energy needs. This is true despite $100/barrel oil and $4 a gallon gasoline. It'll remain largely true until oil gets to about $300~500 a barrel and gas prices top about $12 a gallon.

    Let's take the state of California for an example. The state passed laws requiring that utilities obtain at least about 1/3 of their power from wind, solar or other renewable sources. The result is that Californians now pay about 14.5 cents per kWh. Compared to states like Indiana or Texas where it is about 8 cents and 7.5 cents respectively. This is expected to go up even more in the next few years as California's Cap and Trade racket kicks in. California responded by implementing a tiered system which -- very much like progressive taxation -- gives lower rates to users who do not use a lot of power while punishing heavy users. While this placates some home users who are willing to conserve, it essentially drives industry from the state faster than the bubonic plague.

    Make no mistakes about it, "green technology" does not bring jobs, they chase them from our shores. America's economic success in the past century wasn't built on our environmental zeal, it was -- in part -- built on the fact that we have always had cheap and plentiful energy. Unfortunately, this is something we are trying to change in the earnest. That we refuse to explore and extract cheap and available fossil fuel domestically is scandalous and flat out stupid to say the least.

    At some point, fossil fuel will become sufficiently scarce and expensive enough that alternatives start to make sense. That is inevitable, but that is not today or couple of decades from now. From a purely economic standpoint we should let the market decide when to make that transition – very much like we let economics transition us from coal and whale blubber to oil and gas. We should not try to artificially hurry that process when the economics – the supply and demand – simply do not compute. This leaves only one motivation to promote, subsidize and require alternatives today – the misguided believe that somehow androgynous CO2 output is something we should worry about. I personally do not believe in the Global Warming hypothesis -- the planet is not currently warming and all the warming (and cooling) in the last century is not the slightest bit abnormal in the history of the planet's climate. I also happen to believe that there simply isn’t enough fossil fuel reserve for us permanently or tangibly alter the planet’s climate even if we wanted to. But, this post is not about the climate change hoax; it is about alternative energy so I am not going to spend any more time debating this issue. Instead, I will simply talk about what the future will bring in terms of how we power our civilization. This future, IMHO, is inevitable even if I disagree with the policies, reasons and viability of trying to accelerate its arrival.

    To put it simply, the future is in nuclear generation, electrical grid distribution and battery storage.

    Why Nuclear generation? Because it is the only alternative source of energy with sufficient generation density to power out civilization’s power demands. Wind, Solar and the rest while attractive in their various niches wouldn’t generate enough power to provide for more than 20~25% of today’s power demands even when fully exploited. They have no chance of replacing fossil fuel as the dominant energy source. The geo-political supply situation is also quite favorable. The new “Middle East” in the era of Nuclear Powser will be Australia and that is a firm and stable US ally.

    Why electrical grid distribution? Because it is a efficient, proven and practical way of moving power. It certainly beats hydrogen – a near absolute zero cryogenic liquid or the lowest density gas in the universe. Why do you want to produce hydrogen then move it in 5000 psi gas tanks or cryogenic containers then use a fuel cell to convert it to electric power to drive a motor? It also beats micro reactors in your garage simply because of safety and economies of scale in power production.

    Why Battery Storage? Because, apart from costs, batteries are fully capable of powering a car with the kind of range and performance we demand. The current price of about $400 per kWh for Li-Ion batteries – about $20,000 for enough electric juice to move a midsize car 125 miles can be expected to half in the next decade and ultimately stabilize at roughly the price of lead acid power cells – roughly $100 per KWh. That means that $10,000 in storage cells can get you 250 miles. This is something we can live with even if it is slightly less convenient than gasoline or diesel. Batteries’ biggest downfall – its need to take hours to recharge compared to gas tank’s convenient 2 minute fill up – is also not unconquerable. Instead of plugging-in your car and waiting for the batteries to charge up, if we standardize the dimensions and specifications of battery packs we can have an infrastructure where by you simply swap packs at a gas station. We can have standardized packs very much like we have D sized batteries in flash lights. You drive up, a robotic sled goes under the car, pluck one or more packs off and replace them with fresh ones. You pay for the cost of electric charge and the depreciation of the packs (about 1/1000th the cost of the batteries when new), they even credit you for remaining charge in the packs you left behind and you are on your way in a minute or two. You never buy new batteries the gas station does when it detects a pack that has run out of its useful life.

    That is the future I see. I just don’t think we should be in a hurry to bring it about. What we need today is not dubiously green and exorbitantly priced energy. What we need is cheap and plentiful energy. So... yes... I'll say “Drill baby drill”!

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    riviera74

    Not just "Drill baby Drill!" but "refine baby refine" too. Refining capacity has not appreciably risen since the end of the 70s. There have been upgrades in what existing refineries do since then, but not in actual capacity. The real problem with renewable energy is energy density. There are only two sources of power that have great energy density without the need for massive subsidies: fossil fuels and nuclear. What we could use is a far simpler tax code that terminates all energy subsidies. Also, ending direct subsidies and loan guarantees would help too. For once, let other countries subsidize renewables because they can afford it while we wait for them to make it viable.

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    G. David Felt

    Not just "Drill baby Drill!" but "refine baby refine" too. Refining capacity has not appreciably risen since the end of the 70s. There have been upgrades in what existing refineries do since then, but not in actual capacity. The real problem with renewable energy is energy density. There are only two sources of power that have great energy density without the need for massive subsidies: fossil fuels and nuclear. What we could use is a far simpler tax code that terminates all energy subsidies. Also, ending direct subsidies and loan guarantees would help too. For once, let other countries subsidize renewables because they can afford it while we wait for them to make it viable.

    Can we get a PUMP BABY PUMP?????

    After all, Natural Gas is way cheaper, cleaner and except for making sure the supply has a good filtration so it is dry and any other natural contaminants from under ground are removed it would be a money maker with far easier delivery than petrol.

    Just think of all the semi's you can take off the road when you are not having to deliver petrol as the gas lines just go right to the fast fill stations and then you have home users who do time fill.

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    Drew Dowdell

    "Let's take the state of California for an example. The state passed laws requiring that utilities obtain at least about 1/3 of their power from wind, solar or other renewable sources. The result is that Californians now pay about 14.5 cents per kWh. Compared to states like Indiana or Texas where it is about 8 cents and 7.5 cents respectively."

    - Texas has a competitive power market with over 400 companies competing on price. California no longer has a competitive market, so you're not comparing apples to apples here.

    "Wind, Solar and the rest while attractive in their various niches wouldn’t generate enough power to provide for more than 20~25% of today’s power demands even when fully exploited."

    - Incorrect. The American Mid-West is the Saudi Arabia of wind energy. Additionally, there are newer wind turbine technologies that allow turbines to operate at lower wind speeds and double or triple output at the wind speeds current turbines typically run. New Jersey has already mitigated the need for new power plants by installing rooftop solar across the state. Germany is able to generate 50% of their energy needs via solar power during the summer. We have a much more southern and much sunnier climate than Germany.

    "Why Nuclear generation? Because it is the only alternative source of energy with sufficient generation density to power out civilization’s power demands."

    - I like nuclear as well, and it would be a great complimentary power source to wind and solar mentioned above.

    "So... yes... I'll say “Drill baby drill”!"

    - the longer that oil in our territory stays in the ground, the more valuable it becomes as other sources dry up.

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    Camino LS6

    Clearly, the guiding principle here should be the diversification of our energy supply. We should never again rely on a single source so heavily that it imperils our energy independence, our national security, and our economy.

    That said, the most viable motor fuel to take us past oil is clearly CNG. It is abundant, cheap, domestic, and vastly cleaner than gasoline and diesel. No energy source is perfect, nor without compromise, but CNG is best positioned to take us to a much better place with minimal need for technological advances and monetary investment.

    It would give us a century-long window in which to develop all of the other alternatives while vastly improving things right now.

    • Agree 1
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    G. David Felt

    T Boone Pickens posted this in his LinkedIn Blog:

    We all know how high gasoline prices have continued to rise, year over year. Higher gasoline prices are largely based on higher crude oil prices – likely to bounce between $90 and $100 per barrel for the foreseeable future – plus refining costs, transportation, labor, taxes and (dare we mention it?) profit.

    But there is a hidden cost in what we pay for the oil we import from the Middle East. That is the cost of protecting the well sites, pipelines, and shipping lanes. We currently have two carrier battle groups stationed in and around the Persian Gulf to protect the oil coming through the Strait of Hormuz. According to a report from the Government Accountability Office, the annualized cost of keeping a carrier battle group at sea is $2.93 billion. Two battle groups cost about $5.86 billion per year. And there are discussions about moving a third group on station to deal with potential issues between Iran and Israel.

    About 17 million barrels of oil move through the Strait of Hormuz each day. Two million barrels of that comes to the United States. The other 15 million barrels goes to China, India, Europe and elsewhere across the oceans.

    We get just over 10 percent of the oil, yet we pay 100 percent of the costs of protecting it.

    Oil is a very small player in the production of electricity – about three percent. Most of the oil we import is used as gasoline to run our national fleet of 250 million passenger cars and light trucks. More of it is used as diesel to fuel our eight million heavy-duty trucks.

    It is too complicated logistically to try and create a massive base of natural gas-powered cars. However, heavy trucks – those 18-wheelers – tend to run the same routes week in and week out, so it is a relatively simple matter put natural gas refueling stations at enough truck stops along Interstate highways to handle their fueling needs.

    If we converted all of our heavy trucks to natural gas we would reduce our need for OPEC oil by 75 percent. Without the need for Middle East oil, we would reduce the cost of protecting it by 100 percent. If the Chinese or French still need it, they can pay to protect it.

    We need to get off OPEC oil and onto domestic resources. It can be done in about five years and would have a positive impact on our economy, our environment, and our national security.

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      Leasing / Buying an EV Auto in 2024

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      Tired of the Voom, Voom, Voom of a performance Borla exhaust, the wife asked for a new ride. This is my journey of what I experienced in working to buy/lease an EV in 2024. Let me first start off by saying that I am in no way a normal sized human. At 6 foot 6 inches 300 lbs with a 40 inch long legs, I am much larger and big bone than most Americans. My wife being of Korean descent is also larger than most at 5 foot 8 inches compared to the average female height of 5 foot in Korea. The USA census has the average female at 5 foot 4 inches tall and the average male at 5 foot 9 inches tall. With this knowledge of size, subcompacts, compacts are totally out of the question. I know mid-size to full-size is where our EV choices will be. My journey started with me asking myself, what are the Pro's and Cons of buying versus leasing an Electric Vehicle (EV). 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While the wife digested the EV overload of info, I moved onto researching the EV technology of these auto makers. Auto EV Platform Info 2024.pdf One key item is that I do not want to be behind the 8 ball of technology standards. In this case, I am talking about companies that are on 400V platforms versus 800V platforms. in this case, this brings us down to the following, Cadillac, Genesis, Hyundai and Kia as everyone else is on 400V platforms and already have announced that 2025 and 2026 model years will be the conversion to new 800V platforms. Knowing my wife, one does not rush her, when she is ready, she will let me know, weeks passed by and finally one day at breakfast, she said I have an answer for you. I like the Cadillac Lyriq and the Kia EV9 the best. I want heated seats, steering wheel and AWD, otherwise I could care less about other features. In looking on the websites for my local dealerships, the Cadillac dealership that I have bought from before was sold during the pandemic to Brotherton Cadillac of Renton. So Brotherton Cadillac NW is the dealership near me, and the wife and I reviewed all the Lyriqs and settled on the following:  Cadillac Lyriq Sport 2 AWD Celestial Metallic. This paint color is a color shifting paint that covers purple to silver / grey spectrum depending on the light of the day and especially as I discovered sun versus rain. In the sun it is a radiant purplish color and under dark raining weather a serious silver/dark grey.     Chuck Olson Kia which is less than a mile away from Brotherton Cadillac NW on HWY 99 here in the greater Seattle area had a nice assortment EV9s in Wind, Land and GT versions. They had the traditional blue GT and an Ice Green that the wife really liked. So I settled on the Ice Green to test drive and see what the final price would be. Again, like the Lyriq, the ICE Green metallic paint job has a dominant blueness but turns various shades of lite green to greenish blue depending on the light of the day. At this point we get to the nitty gritty of the dealing, Price paid, rebates, final pricing to determine what the deal ends up being. Over dinner, the wife and I discussed the options of buying versus leasing and to both of us, it made sense at this early stage to lease rather than buy an EV. The addition of the IRA $7,500 rebate also played into our decision. For Cadillac the Lyriq qualifies again for the full $7,500 rebate whether you buy or lease, in the case of the Kia, due to manufacturing in Korea, the EV9 only qualifies for the rebate if you lease. This fall, Kia and Hyundai start manufacturing in the US allowing their EVs to get the full $7,500 rebate if buying. For me, I wanted to see what a zero down Lease deal would be as a starting point before paying down. Depending on credit rating, most auto leases require anywhere from $3,000 to $10,000 down and of course the more you pay down, the lower your monthly payment is. The nature of my work allows me flexibility and as such, I was able to go on a Friday morning at 10am to the Brotherton Cadillac NW to test drive the Lyriq Sport 2 edition. In fact the EV is still on the lot now almost two weeks later. New 2024 Blue Cadillac 4dr Sport w/1SJ LYRIQ for Sale North of Seattle, VIN = 1GYKPVRL1RZ127387 (brothertoncadillacnw.com) Upon driving onto the lot, I parked and saw the Lyriq as it shinned in the morning sun giving that purplish glow that my wife liked. I walked up and checked it out externally and it looked great. After about 10 minutes of checking the Lyriq out, I was still not approached by anyone, so I went into the sales floor and asked if I could talk with someone about a Lyriq. First salesperson said I needed to talk to their EV specialist and walked away, a second person came out of a side hallway and asked if I was being taken care of and I told them what just happened, and I was still standing here. He did apologize and asked me to wait just a moment and he would get the specialist.  A young man came out, introduced himself and asked me if I had any special model in mind and if I wanted to take a test drive. I took him out to show him the one I was interested in. He took down their special code and left to get the keys. At this point, over all experience with the dealership was not bad, neutral for me as it is nothing personal, just business and some do it better than others. The sales rep returned with the keys, he opened up the Lyriq and took me on a tour of the auto pointing out many of the features and explaining the functional differences between how it works on the EV versus an ICE auto. This I have to say was very welcomed as it showed me the man had knowledge of the auto and could show / explain to me how it was to be used. I appreciate this as my wife is not a tech person but show her how to do it and she it set, so this was a good start. We did the traditional driver's license and insurance validation, signed on the dotted line and I then took off for a road trip in the Lyriq. Android auto works as expected, over all interface was easy to understand and use with a nice balance of common used items in physical form right under the screen. Steering wheel had all the expected buttons and dials for using the auto. The Noise canceling of the auto gave it a quiet ride that I have never experienced before and still to this day is the best yet of all the EVs I have test driven.  Negative of the Lyriq is that it is not a true SUV, you sit lower more car like and headroom while I would be fine, required me to drop the seat to the bottom of it's settings which makes my driving position even lower. Knowing that this is the wife's auto, I returned to the dealership to talk price. Here is where things started to go south and why people hate dealerships. I tried my best to negotiate in good faith for a fair price on the EV. The dealership replied that it was the hottest ride available and as such no discounts, you paid the price they had on the auto which was MSRP plus $5,000. I informed them that no I was not going to pay over MSRP for an auto that shows over 300 are available in the greater Seattle area.  The Dealership then said fine, they would sell it at MSRP to me. Knowing that I get $7,500 off I was not put off by this but also not happy that they would not go down on the price. I told them at this point I was interested in leasing and wanted to see what the lease rate would be for 15,000 miles a year for three years. Here is where it got ugly.  The sales rep came back to me and had a handwritten piece of paper with a TRD (Total after Rebates and Discounts) price, Lease money factor number, Residual price and monthly payment including tax. The monthly payment was a little over $1,200 a month. I asked to see firm numbers showing the selling price minus the IRA rebate, tax, etc. all lined up so that I can understand the numbers. I was informed this is how leases are done, your rebate is figured into the residual amount and that this is all the accurate info they provide the buyer. If I agree to this, they can then process and sell me the Lyriq. I told the man that this handwritten paper did not explain any of what I asked to verify and see, so they would need to properly print out or hand write all details in order for me to make a decision. The rep left and was gone for about 10 minutes and then came back with another salesperson who reminded me of a traditional wild west snake oil salesman who tried to use the same paper I was shown and yet tell me I was not able to understand the complexities of leases and should trust him on this awesome monthly cost. When I told him I would not accept that vague random info, he then moved into the terrible game of "What can you afford a month?" Here is where many people either give up and accept or leave as they feel overwhelmed, I on the other hand laughed and told him that I would not play his game. Show me the valid real numbers with a final price on the Lyriq before processing for the Lease monthly amount.  My wife always told me I was a very frustrating person when it came to buying an auto as I would push for facts and have on more than one occasion made salespeople cry when they could not get their way playing their monthly afford game. This is how people get ripped off and taken advantage of. The two folks left and came back with the sales manager who tried again with the paper to spin a different tale. At this point, I said fine, I would consider this as I needed to talk with the wife, and she would need to drive the auto anyway before we would buy.  Leaving the Cadillac dealership, I drove south to Chuck Olson Kia, figured I would see how the EV9 drove again and see what kind of deal I could get. Arriving at the dealership, I saw the EV9 I was interested in on the lot, looked it over and turned around to see if I can get some help and a young man greeted me and said he was with another customer, but would let another salesperson know I was looking at that EV9. Only a few minutes later, the sales rep came out, greeted me and had the keys so he opened up the EV and showed me the SUV.  Here the experience was similar in that we took the EV9 in Ice Green for a drive. As I drove it, I was informed about the various features and how they all worked. An overview that was enjoyable as I drove the near silent EV locally. I did notice that it was not as quiet as the Lyriq, but most would not really notice the difference, everything else on the road was far louder. We returned to the dealership and sat down; I asked the rep for the best price on this EV9 he could give me. He left to talk to his manager. Now I was comparing the price of the Lyriq Sport level 2 to this EV9 AWD Land edition and the MSRP price between the two was within a hundred dollars of each other. The EV9 had a number of features that the Lyriq did not have unless I paid substantially more and go to the top end Sport Level 3. At this point the Kia was winning on features giving it a better value due to the two being priced nearly the same. The sales rep came back to the table with a price that was $5,000 off MSRP. I felt based on internet searching that this was a fair price and felt it was good. I asked him then at this price with my IRA rebate of $7,500 what would a three-year lease with 15,000 miles a year cost me per month. The rep said give him a few minutes to have the manager put this in the system and he would come back with a detailed price for me. The salesperson returned about 10 minutes later with a Deal Sheet for me to review. Here is where the difference became clear between this Kia Dealership and the Cadillac Dealership. The Deal Sheet had all the numbers listed out clearly. Any person could walk through this in full understanding. The lease deal, started off with the Stock number for the EV9, had the MSRP listed, discount, then Selling price of the EV9. This was followed by a blank field for accessories or add on sales items as the sales rep explained. The rebate for $7,500 was clearly listed, blank space for Trade, cash cap reduction, license fee, doc fee ending in a final price of the EV that was then broken down by 36 months @ 15,000 miles a year for a Base monthly rental cost and then the sales tax on the whole deal which was broken down into monthly tax rate added to the monthly lease amount. Residual value at the end of the lease, a residual money factor that is a decimal number used to figure out the monthly lease rate. All in all, a very clear understandable deal and the monthly price for the EV9 was $837 per month compared to $1,200 plus for the Cadillac. I told the salesperson that I would need to talk to my wife when she got home tonight and would give him a call back. As I was getting ready to leave, I realized I had forgotten to ask an important question. Could the front driver and passenger windows be tinted to match the rest of the auto. Due to having had skin cancer, blocking out UV plus just having it darker is what I prefer. The sales rep said he believed so but would have to check with his manager and could call me if I gave him my number later. I left him my cell number and headed home. Sitting at home, I was thinking about the experience at the Cadillac dealership and wondering, can it really be that bad at any other dealership? So, I did a search and found the identical Cadillac Lyriq Sport 2 AWD Celestial Metallic at the Bellevue Cadillac dealership and much farther away at Larson Cadillac of Fife. Off to Bellevue I went. Arriving at the Bellevue Cadillac dealership, I was promptly greeted and professionally questioned on the auto I was interested in. The young man was always polite and more than happy to help me. This dealership is one of the newly built from the ground up dealerships that truly echo's Luxury and what I would expect from a luxury dealership. Due to the knowledge of the salesperson like the other dealership, it started off positive, went out to check and see if the auto their website stated they had on hand was actually there. It was, Identical to the one at Brotherton Cadillac NW in Shoreline Washington. At this point, I gave him the same info I had given the other person to see what the pricing would be. Ten minutes later he returned with a printed sheet of paper, that was better than handwritten. Had a set sale price that was a couple thousand off the MSRP, had a rebate of $1,000 showing a reduced price, document fee, licensing and a theft engraving that he said they do on all autos sold there so nothing I could do about not wanting it. The total at the end showed a lease money factor, term, mileage and residual with a base payment of $1,042 dollars. with no money down.  Now two things I noticed, one was that the IRA rebate was not showing anywhere on the paperwork and the second item was that at least their price was over $200 less than the other dealership. I inquired about the $7,500 rebate and he said he did not know and would go ask. Upon returning he said it was factored into the residual value of the Lyriq when I traded it back in. I pointed out that the rebate does not go into a value of the vehicle but is paid to the dealership and so comes off the price of the auto. Things continued to go downhill from here as I was told by him that I did not understand how leasing worked. His sales manager stopped by, and I pointed this out, same response, I do not understand how leasing works. I informed them that I would need to present this to my wife and discuss it with her. They attempted the pressure response of get her on the phone, we can explain it and you can drive home in your new EV. They were not happy with me and would not let me have the paperwork. When they stepped out to talk, I snapped a quick picture of the printed paperwork. Two Cadillac dealerships, two different lease prices on the identically spec / priced Lyriq Sport 2 and no honest showing of where the rebate would end up at.  Heading home this made me wonder about Cadillac and their EV focus which we have since learned in the news has changed to having ICE and EV through 2030 and beyond. At home, I explained my day of EV shopping to the wife, she was disappointed that Cadillac was not forthcoming with their pricing. She liked the looks of the Lyriq as much as the looks of the Kia EV9. At this point the phone rang, and it was the sales rep for Kia. He informed me that yes, the doors could be tinted and that his sales manager if we were willing to move forward with the deal would throw in the front window tinting. We setup an appointment for Saturday morning to go and test drive the EV9 with the wife to ensure she would be happy driving it. For full details on our EV9 Purchase read this story: Now at this point, I figured I would relax for the evening, but I got another phone call from a sales rep at Larson Cadillac who informed me that the Lyriq I was interested was already sold at their dealership, but he could make me another deal on a like existing Lyriq, different color. I informed him that my wife liked the 800V Lyriq in the Celestial Metallic. The man on the other end of the phone said he could see if they could do a trade to get what we were interested in, but he wanted me to understand that the Lyriq was not a true 800V EV. I was surprised by his comment and asked him why it was not a true 800V EV. I learned and have verified that the only EV GM makes that truly can handle 350 kW fast charging is the Hummers, the Lyriq has an 800V electrical system, but the battery packs are first generation and as such only rated at 400V meaning they have a top charging speed of 150 kW. GM is planning to roll out 800V battery packs starting with the Chevrolet and GMC full size pickups. All other EVs will continue to use the 400V battery packs for now. At this point, I thanked the man for his time and would think on it and get back to him. As a person wanting to be current, this takes me to the Kia EV9 only. I did not say anything to my wife about the tech and hoped she would be happy with how it drove. Luckily that was a success the next day. I have spent half my life on the sales side and in training new sales folks there is a pretty basic 5 step process in sales: 1) Greet the customer inquiring what brought them in today 2) Qualify the person on what they want 3) Trial close to see if they are ready 4) Clarify questions and overcome concerns 5) Close the Sale. To accomplish this basic 5 steps, you first have to fully train the individual in what they are selling. Here Cadillac clearly is not or possibly the dealerships are not wanting to ensure everyone know how to sell an EV. Recap of this whole shopping experience is that Kia is nailing it with a professional sales experience, knowledgeable people on their products and a sales / lease process that is clear hiding nothing from allowing you to commit to buying or leasing a new auto. Cadillac on the other hand has left me with the feeling of snake oil salespersons at both dealerships with vague pricing, vague rebates and me wondering just how much they really want to earn my repeat business as I would love to replace my current Escalade with an Escalade IQ, but at this point, Genesis the luxury brand for Hyundai / Kia will reveal their Full Size GV90 ICE/Hybrid/Electric SUV summer of 2024 and I might just be replacing it with a Genesis. Any questions, ask away.   View full article
    • riviera74
      Random Thoughts Thread

      By riviera74 · Posted

      Rivian? Value? That's hilarious.🤣
    • G. David Felt
      Reader Rides: Our EV Editor Buys a Kia EV9

      By G. David Felt · Posted

      Let me put it this way, The amount of money I saved with the interior having more room inside than my current Escalade and the silent comfort, It is a win to me with not having to deal with any of the ICE maintenance or gas trips. My leasing / buying story should help enlighten you on why leasing an EV is a good thing right now. I am also putting in a Level 2 charger at the house that will be another story on the research, cost, etc. So you can follow up on that story too.
    • ccap41
      Permanent Car Spotters

      By ccap41 · Posted

      I stumbled upon a small meetup this weekend. There's a new custom/restoration shop about two blocks from my home and I was walking to a Casey's to grab a cake donut for my wife (hahaha) and this is right next to the Casey's.  This grey Chevelle was perfect, absolutely perfect. The plate is the name of the shop, Xtreme (restoration, bodywork, modification). I'm sure this is their show piece, and what a piece of work/art it is! I believe the van is theirs as well.  Later that day we ran to Aldi and came across the International Scout. it was far from mint condition, but it was "pretty good" but even cooler to see it just out and about. 
    • smk4565
      Reader Rides: Our EV Editor Buys a Kia EV9

      By smk4565 · Posted

      That's an exciting purchase, EV is tempting to me, but I still think all these current Gen EV's are too expensive compared to ICE cars.  If they can cut weight and cost 15% then I think the flood gates open on EV sales.

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