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    William Maley

    Rumorpile: A Four-Door Ford Mustang?

      Trying to make sense of the latest rumors

    Last month, Ford held a meeting with their dealers in Las Vegas to give them an update of where the company is heading and what to expect in the near future. According to a report from the Mustang6g.com forum, Ford shared vague plans for a four-door variant that would feature a turbo V8 and compete against the likes of the Audi A7 and Porsche Panamera. No timeframe was mention as to when this model could debut.

    Let's try to take this rumor apart.

    The poster who originally brought this to light appears to have joined the forum earlier in October. This either means this is completely made up or there is some truth to this, considering the poster got this info from two sources.

    We know Ford is wanting to leverage the Mustang's aura to help with future products. An example is the upcoming electric crossover that will have elements of the Mustang in its design. The model was teased as the Mach 1, though Ford has decided to scrap the name. Whether Ford decides to use elements of the Mustang's design or decide to stretch the model to add to two doors is unclear.

    Its believed that the next-generation Mustang will move onto modular RWD/AWD platform that will underpin the next-generation Ford Explorer and Lincoln Aviator. But The Truth About Cars has learned from sources will continue with its current platform, possibly in a mild-refreshed form. That seems tough to believe as Ford is in the middle of reducing costs. Keeping the Mustang platform around for two models seems crazy. TTAC seems to have similar feelings and believes that the Mustang and the possible four-door will move to the new platform.

    What about the turbo V8? Ford currently doesn't have one at the moment and there haven't been any rumors of one being worked on. You might think that it could be the V8 under the upcoming Shelby GT500, but that one is supercharged. 

    Also, how would this new fit into Ford's current plan of slashing their car lineup to make room for more trucks and utilities?

    We have a lot of questions, but not many answers. Maybe there is some truth in here, or it is just some smoke in the wind. We'll keep you updated.

    Source: Mustang6g.com, Car and Driver, The Truth About Cars



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    Distraction with smoke and mirrors sounds like.

    Ignore our crazy lack of directions for the car side of the family.

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    47 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

    I say why not.... heck, the Kia Stinger gets a lot of praise and it's basically what a 4-door mustang should be. 

    The Kia Stinger brings out a lot of the inner enthusiast in me. And it isn't selling half bad for a niche vehicle.

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    1 hour ago, Drew Dowdell said:

    I say why not.... heck, the Kia Stinger gets a lot of praise and it's basically what a 4-door mustang should be. 

    I agree, and 4 doors would open the Mustang up to more buyers, offer all wheel drive would as well.  And since Ford is killing all the other sedans, you need 1 car with a usable back seat unless you just don’t care about sales and I feel like these dealers will revolt without any cars.

    Question is will Ford price a 4 door Mustang like a 2 door, or will they do something stupid and price it at $50-60k and think it can compete with German sedans?  

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    4 hours ago, ccap41 said:

    It would definitely be priced similar to a Stinger.

    30-50k seems about right. 

    Does it though when Ford can't sell sedans that cost $20-30k?  

    A Mustang GT Premium is $39k, so I don't see why they can't do a V8 Sedan for $40k.  The Ecoboost 4 Mustangs are in the low $30s, seems like this sedan should live in the $30-40k range.  Really they should be modeling Dodge Charger pricing.

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    Man do I miss the Pontiac G8...Chevy SS..., the Charger will probably die, 300 is already in its coffin, the Stinger is humiliating all the American automakers....

    What now!? Someone say a Mustang sedan!!!

    I said I missed those cars, I don’t want a Mustang sedan, plus it’s heresy!!!

     

     

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    35 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    Does it though when Ford can't sell sedans that cost $20-30k?  

    A Mustang GT Premium is $39k, so I don't see why they can't do a V8 Sedan for $40k.  The Ecoboost 4 Mustangs are in the low $30s, seems like this sedan should live in the $30-40k range.  Really they should be modeling Dodge Charger pricing.

    The GT can easily be optioned above 50k, and if they offered a top trim equivalent to the GT350, then 65k+ could be possible. 

    I like the idea of a 4dr Ford sport sedan w V8 and RWD w/ AWD optional.   Not sure if Mustang is the right identity, but I can see the appeal of a tie in w/ Mustang identity.  Other than the Taurus SHO, Ford really doesn’t have much of a sport sedan history in the US. 

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    58 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    Does it though when Ford can't sell sedans that cost $20-30k?  

    A Mustang GT Premium is $39k, so I don't see why they can't do a V8 Sedan for $40k.  The Ecoboost 4 Mustangs are in the low $30s, seems like this sedan should live in the $30-40k range.  Really they should be modeling Dodge Charger pricing.

    You must fear that Ford just might build a better performance sedan than what MB offers in AMG.

    Found this online as I was wondering if any photoshop had been done. Pretty nice actually.

    See the source image

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    why not just get CTS-V or Vsport.  apart from only being RWD you can already get a kick ass sedan like that.  If you were to find a one year old Vsport it won't be that much more than a decked out mustang either.

    28 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

    The GT can easily be optioned above 50k, and if they offered a top trim equivalent to the GT350, then 65k+ could be possible. 

    I like the idea of a 4dr Ford sport sedan w V8 and RWD w/ AWD optional.   Not sure if Mustang is the right identity, but I can see the appeal of a tie in w/ Mustang identity.  Other than the Taurus SHO, Ford really doesn’t have much of a sport sedan history in the US. 

    and it is true, maybe we are a point where the classic pony car (2 door rwd) could end up being usurped buy something with 4 doors and optional AWD.

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    7 minutes ago, regfootball said:

    why not just get CTS-V or Vsport.  apart from only being RWD you can already get a kick ass sedan like that.  If you were to find a one year old Vsport it won't be that much more than a decked out mustang either.

    and it is true, maybe we are a point where the classic pony car (2 door rwd) could end up being usurped buy something with 4 doors and optional AWD.

    Decided to see what was out there and at the local Chevy dealer I found a 2010 CTS-V with only 20,000 miles for $37,912 single owner. 94 on the carfax score.

    https://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?listingId=492572758&zip=98043&referrer=%2Fcars-for-sale%2Fsearchresults.xhtml%3Fzip%3D98043%26listingTypes%3DUSED%2CCERTIFIED%26startYear%3D1981%26sortBy%3Drelevance%26incremental%3Dall%26firstRecord%3D0%26marketExtension%3Don%26endYear%3D2019%26modelCodeList%3DCTS%26makeCodeList%3DCAD%26searchRadius%3D50%26trimCodeList%3DCTS%7CV%2CCTS%7CVsport%2CCTS%7CVsport%2BPremium%2CCTS%7CVsport%2BPremium%2BLuxury&listingTypes=USED%2CCERTIFIED&startYear=1981&numRecords=25&firstRecord=0&endYear=2019&modelCodeList=CTS&makeCodeList=CAD&searchRadius=50&clickType=spotlight

    Used 2010 Cadillac CTS in Kirkland, WA - 492572758 - 1

    Gotta say, it is nice and a lot of car for the price. 

    I see there is a 2014 CTS-V with 27,000 miles for $45,500 locally and so much more. 

    If I was in the market for a performance sedan, I agree, time to check the luxury CPO cars.

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    Interesting idea.  Given the fate of both the Pontiac G8 and the Chevy SS (may they both RIP), I am not sure Ford would actually build such a sports sedan.

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    9 hours ago, regfootball said:

    why not just get CTS-V or Vsport.  apart from only being RWD you can already get a kick ass sedan like that.  If you were to find a one year old Vsport it won't be that much more than a decked out mustang either.

    and it is true, maybe we are a point where the classic pony car (2 door rwd) could end up being usurped buy something with 4 doors and optional AWD.

    Not sure why you are talking about Cadillacs, since this is a thread about a hypothetical Ford product.  It could be also be a Lincoln or have a Lincoln variant.  Ford doesn’t have anything like this in NA or globally. 

    7 hours ago, riviera74 said:

    Interesting idea.  Given the fate of both the Pontiac G8 and the Chevy SS (may they both RIP), I am not sure Ford would actually build such a sports sedan.

    Speculatively,  there may be a market globally for such a car, whether a Ford or Lincoln.   It is interesting to consider a possible future Ford product that’s not another CUV.  It’s too bad the performance versions of the OZ Falcon weren’t available in NA, but they probably would have failed like the SS.  

    I doubt if anything will come if this, given Ford’s CUV and truck obsession.  But it is fun to speculate.  And I hate insomnia.   

    I do like the idea of sports sedans, whether serious German style like the ATS-v, CTS-v, M3/M5, AMG Mercs, etc or 'Murica!' muscle car style like the Charger variations.   That niche still exists, even in a world unfortunately dominated by trucks, SUVs and CUVs..

    Edited by Robert Hall

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    Ford has zero chance competing with an AMG or M car or any Cadillac.  Lincoln has positioned themselves as soft luxury with smooth ride, a performance  vehicle won’t fit their brand image.  Plus Lincoln can’t sell $45,000 Continentals, zero chance they can sell a $65k performance sedan.

    If Ford does this their path to victory it to price it like the Charger which does sell okay, and steal sales like crazy off the Charger/300 and put them out business and at that $30k price point you can also get people that would have bought a Fusion or Taurus.

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    11 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    Does it though when Ford can't sell sedans that cost $20-30k?  

    A Mustang GT Premium is $39k, so I don't see why they can't do a V8 Sedan for $40k.  The Ecoboost 4 Mustangs are in the low $30s, seems like this sedan should live in the $30-40k range.  Really they should be modeling Dodge Charger pricing.

    They could for 40k and that's almost exactly like the Stinger. The TT3.3 starts at $39,100 and can be optioned to $49,900. 

    The value a car like this and the Stinger has over the German cars is size. They're priced similar to the 3 Series/C Class/4 but they're the size of the 5 Series/E Class/6.

    10 hours ago, Robert Hall said:

    Other than the Taurus SHO, Ford really doesn’t have much of a sport sedan history in the US.

    I know they're nothing overly special but they've had Fusion Sports for the last ~10 years. 

    10 hours ago, regfootball said:

    why not just get CTS-V or Vsport.  apart from only being RWD you can already get a kick ass sedan like that.  If you were to find a one year old Vsport it won't be that much more than a decked out mustang either.

    Somebody has to buy new cars in order for there to be a used market. CTS V-Sport is a 63k car to start. 

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    10 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

     

    I know they're nothing overly special but they've had Fusion Sports for the last ~10 years. 

     

    Those aren't V8 and RWD though...

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    3 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

    Those aren't V8 and RWD though...

    Is that a requirement for a sports sedan? The current SHO hasn't had a V8. 

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    39 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

    Is that a requirement for a sports sedan? The current SHO hasn't had a V8. 

    True, but no one takes the SHO seriously, and it's a soon to be dead product.    I was thinking Charger SRT, Mercedes C/E AMGs, BMW M5, Cadillac V-series, etc...all RWD or RWD/AWD...6 or V8..

    Edited by Robert Hall
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    32 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

    True, but no one takes the SHO seriously.   I was thinking Charger SRT, Mercedes C/E AMGs, BMW M5, Cadillac V-series, etc...all RWD or RWD/AWD...

    they're taken plenty seriously when they're flashing red/blue in your rearview mirror. 

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    Yeah the SHO was pretty stout when it first came out and it's still a pretty damn quick car in a straight line. It only really got criticized for not being a corner carver. It's a sub 14.0 second car through the 1/4 and how many other cars are quicker than it? Ones that are either sports cars, muscle cars or German performance cars. 

    I've never liked it because I've never liked the bulky-look and the size of it. 

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    Anyway, who knows if anything will happen.  I am surprised Ford hasn't made some sort of sedan  (Ford or Lincoln) using the 15+ Mustang platform.  4, V6, V8 and RWD w/ IRS..seems like a good place to start for a sports sedan or luxury sports sedan...

    Edited by Robert Hall
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    Always like the SHO Yamaha engine that was in the first generation of the SHO. Very cool car. Just not enough space inside for me to be comfy.

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    56 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

    But nothing is, so there's that.

    I can Dream! 

    Brougham V edition! :metal:

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    9 minutes ago, dfelt said:

    I can Dream! 

    Brougham V edition! :metal:

    That's not a BOF SUV. No chance you fit in that. 

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    Here's a Caddy sedan @dfelt might fit in...stretched wheelbase and raised roof. And with the padded top, it's a Brougham!

     

    kisspng-cadillac-cts-v-car-lincoln-mkt-2018-cadillac-xts-limo-5aef0d917d0c75.3267776615256160175122.jpg

    Edited by Robert Hall
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    9 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

    No, he wants RWD and a V8 with as much cargo room as his Escalade....

    funeral-car-cadillac-hearse-824661121018371010.jpg

    Too much chrome for him, though..needs black chrome trim and wheels.

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    9 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

    Too much chrome for him, though..needs black chrome trim and wheels.

    Thats stainless steel tyvm!

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    16 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    Does it though when Ford can't sell sedans that cost $20-30k?

    What is your sales number of "can't sell"? 

    Through October they have sold:

    105,000 Focuses

    141,000 Fusions

    24,000 Tauruses

    66,500 Mustangs

    414,000 cars total. 

    Mercedes has sold 32,000 vehicles TOTAL through October. 

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    Just now, ccap41 said:

    What is your sales number of "can't sell"? 

     

    Ford has given up on selling sedans under 40k.  Old news. Fiesta, Focus, Fusion, Taurus all gone soon in NA...

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    2 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

    Ford has given up on selling sedans under 40k.  Old news. Fiesta, Focus, Fusion, Taurus all gone soon in NA...

    Two of those should have gone and one should have been gone years ago, Fiesta and Taurus. 

    I'm surprised they'd give up on the Fusion and Focus. It seems like the volume would always be there for those two models. 

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    1 minute ago, ccap41 said:

    Two of those should have gone and one should have been gone years ago, Fiesta and Taurus. 

    I'm surprised they'd give up on the Fusion and Focus. It seems like the volume would always be there for those two models. 

    This was announced a while back.  The Mustang is going to be the only car they sell in NA.

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    57 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

    This was announced a while back.  The Mustang is going to be the only car they sell in NA.

    lol I know. I was just saying that two of them I understand and the other two I don't as much. 

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    Ford is giving up on sedans... Not cars. 

    Remember, the Kix and Soul are just cars, but because they aren't shaped like a sedan, they sell well. 

    Also, Ford not being able to make money on 141k Fusions says more about Ford than it does about the sedan market.

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    Well, they cancelled the Focus Active hatch for the US...and Americans don't like regular hatchbacks, so other than Mustang...it sounds like Ford's future is more CUVs, SUVs and trucks...Kicks and Soul are just small CUVs, like the Trax, CH-R, HR-V, etc..

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    18 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

    Well, they cancelled the Focus Active hatch for the US...and Americans don't like regular hatchbacks, so other than Mustang...it sounds like Ford's future is more CUVs, SUVs and trucks...Kicks and Soul are just small CUVs, like the Trax, CH-R, HR-V, etc..

    They canceled it due to Trump tariffs. The Focus Activ would have done well here if the Subaru CrossTrek is any indication. 

    The Kicks and Soul are hatchbacks. They are no more CUV than the PT Cruiser or HHR were. 

    If just being tall and not being a sedan counted as being a crossover, then the VW Beetle was a CUV also. 

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    35 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

    Ford is giving up on sedans... Not cars. 

    Thank you!

    I have read the same thing. I don't remember what Ford rep said it but they said they believe the sedan body style is done. They didn't say they were done building cars but tehy were done with sedans. 

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    10 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

    They canceled it due to Trump tariffs. The Focus Activ would have done well here if the Subaru CrossTrek is any indication. 

    The Kicks and Soul are hatchbacks. They are no more CUV than the PT Cruiser or HHR were.  

    Meh...they are tall wagons or small CUVs.   A hatchback to me is something like a Fiesta, Focus, Beetle, Golf, Buick Regal, or Velocter. Something that looks like a car with a hatch.

    Edited by Robert Hall

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    1 minute ago, Robert Hall said:

    Meh...they are tall wagons or small CUVs.   A hatchback to me is something like a Fiesta, Focus, Golf, Buick Regal, or Velocter. Something that looks like a car with a hatch.

    Like... an HHR or PT Cruiser?

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    1 minute ago, Drew Dowdell said:

    Like... an HHR or PT Cruiser?

    Those were shitboxes..;)     Didn't Chrysler do something weird like classify the PT as truck? 

    Edited by Robert Hall
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    2 hours ago, ccap41 said:

    What is your sales number of "can't sell"? 

    Through October they have sold:

    105,000 Focuses

    141,000 Fusions

    24,000 Tauruses

    66,500 Mustangs

    414,000 cars total. 

    Mercedes has sold 32,000 vehicles TOTAL through October. 

    And come 2020, that list will read:

    Mustang 66,000

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    3 hours ago, Robert Hall said:

    Too much chrome for him, though..needs black chrome trim and wheels.

    You have been paying attention to my love of black chrome or monochromatic auto's. LOL, seems to be predictable I am. :P

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    18 hours ago, dfelt said:

    You must fear that Ford just might build a better performance sedan than what MB offers in AMG.

    Found this online as I was wondering if any photoshop had been done. Pretty nice actually.

    See the source image

    Except in actual execution it will be more like the Taurus. Hard, hard, hard no.

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    3 hours ago, ccap41 said:

    What is your sales number of "can't sell"? 

    Through October they have sold:

    105,000 Focuses

    141,000 Fusions

    24,000 Tauruses

    66,500 Mustangs

    414,000 cars total. 

    Mercedes has sold 32,000 vehicles TOTAL through October. 

    Yes...and they have probably made more actual real world profit than Ford did...Mercedees sells about 350,000 cars a year at a high margin.

    Also....I think your numbers are messed up. Your numbers are in october for benz and through october for Ford. You are giving Ford nine extra months of sales.

    16 minutes ago, dfelt said:

    You have been paying attention to my love of black chrome or monochromatic auto's. LOL, seems to be predictable I am. :P

    Is anyone here not predictable?

    Edited by A Horse With No Name
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    8 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

    Except in actual execution it will be more like the Taurus. Hard, hard, hard no.

    I hope not..I was thinking the current Mustang could make a sleek 4dr with a slightly higher roof and a slightly longer wheelbase.   Something less aggro than the Rapide, maybe like how the previous BMW 6 series Gran Coupe was a beautiful 2dr made into a beautiful 4dr..

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    8 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    Ford has zero chance competing with an AMG or M car or any Cadillac.  Lincoln has positioned themselves as soft luxury with smooth ride, a performance  vehicle won’t fit their brand image.  Plus Lincoln can’t sell $45,000 Continentals, zero chance they can sell a $65k performance sedan.

    If Ford does this their path to victory it to price it like the Charger which does sell okay, and steal sales like crazy off the Charger/300 and put them out business and at that $30k price point you can also get people that would have bought a Fusion or Taurus.

    Continental is sucking wind indeed. I have made 4 trips to Pexinton Kentucky, round tripped North Carolina and made a ton of other road trips in the last month, including a drive to Easton Pennsylvania on the NJ border. Zero Conti's actually out on the road in all of that travel.

    Hell...I actually saw a couple of Chrysler Airflows fron the 30s...and 3 amphibicars from the 60s...59 Eldorado...but no Contis.

    4 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

    I hope not..I was thinking the current Mustang could make a sleek 4dr with a slightly higher roof and a slightly longer wheelbase.   Something less aggro than the Rapide, maybe like how the previous BMW 6 series Gran Coupe was a beautiful 2dr made into a beautiful 4dr..

    I could totally see them diluting and destroying what brand equity they have left in the Mustang by offering an SUV variant and a sedan variant.

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    27 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

    C

    I could totally see them diluting and destroying what brand equity they have left in the Mustang by offering an SUV variant and a sedan variant.

    I could totally seem them doing that, trying to synergize on brand equity.    Over at GM, if it were well executed, I could see a Corvette sedan and CUV to take on the Panamera and Cayenne.  Those would be likely more successful efforts than Mustangization...

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    4 hours ago, Robert Hall said:

    Ford has given up on selling sedans under 40k.  Old news. Fiesta, Focus, Fusion, Taurus all gone soon in NA...

    Deciding to stop selling sedans in the future is an entirely different thing than a claim that 'Ford can't sell them now'.

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    9 minutes ago, balthazar said:

    Deciding to stop selling sedans in the future is an entirely different thing than a claim that 'Ford can't sell them now'.

    Immaterial.  Ford has given up on their sedans, sales now have no meaning.  Just pushing remaining discontinued cars out the door.

    Edited by Robert Hall
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    4 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

    A Mustang sedan need not be called Mustang.  You could try Falcon or Galaxie from Ford in the 1960s.

    Problem is those names don't have the broad brand recognition or associated retro styling cues that Mustang does.   Same reason Dodge went with Charger instead of Coronet or Polara...

    Edited by Robert Hall

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    3 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    And come 2020, that list will read:

    Mustang 66,000

    So ridiculous, hopefully what is left of them is bought out by a company with decent management and deep pockets before they do more self harm.  

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    1 hour ago, Robert Hall said:

    Immaterial.  Ford has given up on their sedans, sales now have no meaning.  Just pushing remaining discontinued cars out the door.

    The way smk's post read was :: *Ford is cancelling their car lines because they "can't sell them"* when obviously that's not remotely the case.

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    Just now, balthazar said:

    The way smk's post read was :: *Ford is cancelling their car lines because they "can't sell them"* when obviously that's not remotely the case.

    Can't continue to sell them profitably here is apparently is the case...

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    I'd prefer to see a balance sheet / official statement before I jump to conclusions.

    Edited by balthazar
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    Torino 4dr hatch and wagon like a 70 or 72 gt sport two of the best looking mid sized Ford's that were also very sporty , the hatch would be what Ford's thinking I'm betting

    Edited by 67impss
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    I'll go on record here and also go against my usual take : I think Ford could do a really well done 'Mustang sedan' and that it would be worth looking hard at. The iconic status of the model is very powerful and the GT is already quicker than a Panamera.

    Of course a sedan version would gain weight.

    Of course there are numerous power level upgrades from the GT. ;)

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    6 minutes ago, balthazar said:

    I'll go on record here and also go against my usual take : I think Ford could do a really well done 'Mustang sedan' and that it would be worth looking hard at. The iconic status of the model is very powerful and the GT is already quicker than a Panamera.

    Of course a sedan version would gain weight.

    Of course there are numerous power level upgrades from the GT. ;)

    I agree, I think a Sedan could do very well as well as a wagon. I think using aluminum and balsa-wood core like the corvette to keep them lite weight would allow them to build a strong competitor to the German, Asian and American brands.

    At least no one is trying to do this to the Muttang! :roflmao:

    See the source image

    I would rather have this

    See the source image

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    59 minutes ago, frogger said:

    So ridiculous, hopefully what is left of them is bought out by a company with decent management and deep pockets before they do more self harm.  

    Or let them self destruct and let more worthy companies live.

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    9 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

    Or let them self destruct and let more worthy companies live.

    I'm good with that, I have no sentimental feelings for any commercial enterprises.. Governments don't seem to want to let things play out though..

     

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    Ford can't sell cars and make a profit I guess is the best way to say it.  Probably the only way they get sales volume is discounts and fleet sales.  

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    30 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    Ford can't sell cars and make a profit I guess is the best way to say it.

    Best way to say what?? What you think is the case or what Ford had officially stated is the case?

    Please point me to the release that says Ford makes no profit on any of the proposed discontinued car lines. If there is no such known document, you can't say "both" to the above question.

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    Why is this thread getting so much activity? There’s been Mustang sedan wishful thinking and perhaps even rumours in the past.

     

    It’s not happening and if it did the car will never be a Mustang. And I know that if anything this is one of Jim Farley’s pipe dreams.

     

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    I would agree it's 'not happening' except for 2 factors. IF Ford drops every sedan, or even more extreme; every car except the Mustang, there remains a very real likelyhood that Ford will look to amortize Mustang costs somehow. The other factor is that the market has shifted measurably in the last few years, enough that it has thrown all sorts of 'guaranteed' & 'safe' segments up in the air.

    This, from a person who hated it when the Grand Prix added a 4-dr, and that then was on a vehicle with far less resonance than the Mustang has now.

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    7 hours ago, Suaviloquent said:

    Why is this thread getting so much activity? There’s been Mustang sedan wishful thinking and perhaps even rumours in the past.

     

    It’s not happening and if it did the car will never be a Mustang. And I know that if anything this is one of Jim Farley’s pipe dreams.

     

    Hate to say it but the Market dynamics have shifted and 2 doors are a very limited appeal. As @balthazar has stated, the only way to amortize the cost is going to build 4 door performance sedans, wagons and CUVs based on Muttang DNA.

    Think of it this way, Mustang will be the Pontiac Excitement division of Ford. What Pontiac should have been under GMC. Performance cars and nothing else.

    If they do not do this, mustang will be dead in the near future, 5-10 years from now.

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    I don't agree that it'll be dead, there will always be Hi-Po 2-drs available, and Ford certainly can choose to run the margin thin on future Mustangs if that were the case. 66K/yr is far more than most similar vehicles, and frankly I was surprised to see how low the 'stang starts MSRP-wise. I would've thought they started around 35K.

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    15 hours ago, A Horse With No Name said:

    Also....I think your numbers are messed up. Your numbers are in october for benz and through october for Ford. You are giving Ford nine extra months of sales.

    Sorry, that wasn't supposed to be the case. I misread their October statement.

    286,040 is the correct number through October.

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    11 hours ago, A Horse With No Name said:

    Or let them self destruct and let more worthy companies live.

    Government won't let that happen. We already know that. ;) 

    8 hours ago, Suaviloquent said:

    Why is this thread getting so much activity? There’s been Mustang sedan wishful thinking and perhaps even rumours in the past.

     

    It’s not happening and if it did the car will never be a Mustang. And I know that if anything this is one of Jim Farley’s pipe dreams.

     

    Probably because they finally have a worthy enough platform under the skin. A solid rear axle would have been a mess of a sports sedan. 

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    54 minutes ago, balthazar said:

    I don't agree that it'll be dead, there will always be Hi-Po 2-drs available, and Ford certainly can choose to run the margin thin on future Mustangs if that were the case. 66K/yr is far more than most similar vehicles, and frankly I was surprised to see how low the 'stang starts MSRP-wise. I would've thought they started around 35K.

    The Mustang and the Camaro actually start LESS than the Toyota 86.

    Mustang: $26,120

    Camaro: $25,905

    86: $26,455

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    12 hours ago, balthazar said:

    I'd prefer to see a balance sheet / official statement before I jump to conclusions.

    Ford still has huge debt obligations that weren't shed during the great unpleasantness of 2008.  That leaves them short on cash for platform development. 

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    36 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

    The Mustang and the Camaro actually start LESS than the Toyota 86.

    Mustang: $26,120

    Camaro: $25,905

    86: $26,455

    ...and when you add in the V8 in the low $30's with both the Camaro and mustang, it becomes a moot point.  You will never build an 86 as fast as that. Plus both the Mustang and Camaro are infinitely more comfortable as a daily driver. 

    18 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

    Ford still has huge debt obligations that weren't shed during the great unpleasantness of 2008.  That leaves them short on cash for platform development. 

    Probably also why they are not turning a per car profit on lower margin items like Fiestas and the like. 

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    3 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

    ...and when you add in the V8 in the low $30's with both the Camaro and mustang, it becomes a moot point.  You will never build an 86 as fast as that.

    I can only see the 86 being faster if they go Hybrid with electric motor assist or pure EV. Otherwise your totally right this Asian built 2dr sport car will never match the Muttang or Camaro in performance.

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    8 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

    ...and when you add in the V8 in the low $30's with both the Camaro and mustang, it becomes a moot point.  You will never build an 86 as fast as that. Plus both the Mustang and Camaro are infinitely more comfortable as a daily driver. 

    Correct but those cost a lot more than the base trims. They are no longer a low-30's V8 car. 

    The cheapest V8 in "this class" is the R/T Challenger starting at $33,995. The R/T Scat Pack that gives you the 485hp HEMI starts at $39,995, for comparison sake.

    Camaro SS: $37,495

    Mustang GT: $35,355

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    ^^ They must have raised the price. It wasn't that long ago that the Challenger and Charger were the only V8 you could get for less than $30k

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    Prices must have crept up as the car starts at $27,295 for an SXT, SXT Plus at $30,295, then the R/T at $33,995.

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    46 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

    Probably also why they are not turning a per car profit on lower margin items like Fiestas and the like. 

    Current operation margins have nothing to do with past debt, other than the ability to pay past debt down. IOW; debt owed doesn't mean a given car is not making a profit (tho I admit an accounting POV may differ with that statement).

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    11 minutes ago, balthazar said:

    Current operation margins have nothing to do with past debt, other than the ability to pay past debt down. IOW; debt owed doesn't mean a given car is not making a profit (tho I admit an accounting POV may differ with that statement).

    I was thinking of total cost out the door.  In the same way you would have to amortize payments (interest especially) on a new truck if you had to replace your current work truck.  That would have to be factored into your per job cost for your construction company.

    47 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

    Correct but those cost a lot more than the base trims. They are no longer a low-30's V8 car. 

    The cheapest V8 in "this class" is the R/T Challenger starting at $33,995. The R/T Scat Pack that gives you the 485hp HEMI starts at $39,995, for comparison sake.

    Camaro SS: $37,495

    Mustang GT: $35,355

    Still....compared to the value of trying to upgrade a BRZ/FRS/Toyota 86....cheap.  You will never make the four banger into remotely the car the GT or SS are.

    55 minutes ago, dfelt said:

    I can only see the 86 being faster if they go Hybrid with electric motor assist or pure EV. Otherwise your totally right this Asian built 2dr sport car will never match the Muttang or Camaro in performance.

    Even if you add Hybrid assist, the Camaro and Mustang will be far more car in V8 trim in terms of comfort and driving dynamics.

    For an autocross car on short courses, the BRZ wins hands down.

    When you want to drive from Ohio to California, Mustang or Camaro would be infinitely better.

    Edited by A Horse With No Name
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    17 minutes ago, balthazar said:

    Current operation margins have nothing to do with past debt, other than the ability to pay past debt down. IOW; debt owed doesn't mean a given car is not making a profit (tho I admit an accounting POV may differ with that statement).

    Depends on how that debt has been amortized. 

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    10 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

    Still....compared to the value of trying to upgrade a BRZ/FRS/Toyota 86....cheap.  You will never make the four banger into remotely the car the GT or SS are.

    That's the biggest gripe I have with the 86/BRZ is unless you add boost, you really can't get much of anything out of them. Very disappointing because I think they are very attractive little cars. 

    But, theoretically, a $5000 turbo kit netting roughly 100whp gain(Greddy full turbo kit) is still cheaper than a GT/SS and would likely keep up/beat as they're so much smaller/lighter of a car(roughly 1000lbs lighter).

    Yes, yes, yes, modded vs stock is a stupid slippery slope but we're talking about a ~10k price difference and yes there's the cost to install as well. And the additional difference could go into a wheel/tire setup to get the power to the ground. 

    Personally, I'd easily prefer the V8 muscle car but the lighter twins could definitely be made into cars that compete on a race track with the GT/SS.

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    23 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

    That's the biggest gripe I have with the 86/BRZ is unless you add boost, you really can't get much of anything out of them. Very disappointing because I think they are very attractive little cars. 

    But, theoretically, a $5000 turbo kit netting roughly 100whp gain(Greddy full turbo kit) is still cheaper than a GT/SS and would likely keep up/beat as they're so much smaller/lighter of a car(roughly 1000lbs lighter).

    Yes, yes, yes, modded vs stock is a stupid slippery slope but we're talking about a ~10k price difference and yes there's the cost to install as well. And the additional difference could go into a wheel/tire setup to get the power to the ground. 

    Personally, I'd easily prefer the V8 muscle car but the lighter twins could definitely be made into cars that compete on a race track with the GT/SS.

    They are a really different class of car.

    I actually love both groups. It's just that at 53 it is easier for me to get in and out of a Mustang than a BRZ.  And a lot more comfortable on the road. I have spent a couple of decades fooling around with small nimble cars...I am ready for something a little more quiet with a better ride and more interstate friendly.

    Probably why I like the Kia Stinger so much.  It is not a hard throw back to the bast like the Challenger/mustang/Camaro triplets and still strikes me as a pretty good road car. 

    Were I actually going to race it, a dedicated purpose built race car like a Formula Ford, Spec Racer ford or the like for SCCA open track, an Exocet conversion for a Miata for autocross, or a legends car for oval track would make a lot of sense.

     

    39 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

    Depends on how that debt has been amortized. 

    I think the original point you made was in regards to cash flow and new models. You are right...debt may have taken the next gen Ford Fusion from us.

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    I find it hard to believe that Ford would abandon rental sedan fleet sales and police car fleet sales.  Maybe they think Explorer police package and Escape rentals at Hertz will do the trick, but having a 4 door Mustang can help fill those 2 gaps.

    Ford has factory capacity they have to use.  Having an under utilized factory costs a ton of money.

    2 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

    Ford still has huge debt obligations that weren't shed during the great unpleasantness of 2008.  That leaves them short on cash for platform development. 

    Maybe they could buy a Jaguar and use the XE platform for a Lincoln sports sedan and bring back the Thunderbird...

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    24 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    I find it hard to believe that Ford would abandon rental sedan fleet sales and police car fleet sales.  Maybe they think Explorer police package and Escape rentals at Hertz will do the trick, but having a 4 door Mustang can help fill those 2 gaps.

    Ford has factory capacity they have to use.  Having an under utilized factory costs a ton of money.

    Maybe they could buy a Jaguar and use the XE platform for a Lincoln sports sedan and bring back the Thunderbird...

    Now a stinger-esque Thunderbird based on the Mustang platform, and not a four door Mustang, would be sexy as hell. 1967-1969 Thunderbird was a beautiful car. Ford could do a lot with this. IT would be a lot of what the Conti should have been. 

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    If they can sell a Fusion Max/Active/CrisCross for $2000 more than they can sell a sedan and have close to zero additional development costs, why wouldn't they?

    That's what it's coming down to.  An Ecosport sells for thousands more than a Fiesta, but aside from the addition of AWD which the customer pays for, there is no significant increase in cost to actually develop and build it.  Ditto Sonic/Trax. 

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    2 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

    If they can sell a Fusion Max/Active/CrisCross for $2000 more than they can sell a sedan and have close to zero additional development costs, why wouldn't they?

    That's what it's coming down to.  An Ecosport sells for thousands more than a Fiesta, but aside from the addition of AWD which the customer pays for, there is no significant increase in cost to actually develop and build it.  Ditto Sonic/Trax. 

    I just don't want them to dilute Mustang image and brand equity with a second rate/compromised/unoriginal vehicle. 

    They need fewer vehicles and to do them better...as does everyone else. 

    In one real sense no real need for Forester and Crosstrek both...or jetta and Passat, or....

    i really like the idea of fewer platforms done better. 

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    Ford's police sales are broken out separately, and they aren't all that much. Explorer Interceptor is running 28K to date vs. 190K private sales. Taurus Interceptor is running 6K vs. 24K private sales.

    If the Mustang 4 isn't diluting it's image, a comparative 4-dr 'Mustang' shouldn't either.

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    1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

    I find it hard to believe that Ford would abandon rental sedan fleet sales and police car fleet sales.  Maybe they think Explorer police package and Escape rentals at Hertz will do the trick, but having a 4 door Mustang can help fill those 2 gaps.

    News flash, buddy. Just like the rest of the auto sales, most all of police fleets are Explorers. 

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    27 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

    News flash, buddy. Just like the rest of the auto sales, most all of police fleets are Explorers. 

    Washington state just put out to auction the last of the crown vic police cars, state, county and city cops are all SUV based here now. All I see are Explorers and Tahoe's. There are a few Chargers, but even those seem to becoming rare.

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    1 hour ago, Drew Dowdell said:

    If they can sell a Fusion Max/Active/CrisCross for $2000 more than they can sell a sedan and have close to zero additional development costs, why wouldn't they?

    That's what it's coming down to.  An Ecosport sells for thousands more than a Fiesta, but aside from the addition of AWD which the customer pays for, there is no significant increase in cost to actually develop and build it.  Ditto Sonic/Trax. 

    They should turn the Focus into a small pick up truck.  The Transit Connect is built on a Focus chassis, they could make that a unibody pickup instead with some sort of 1 liter ecoboost engine.

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    32 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    They should turn the Focus into a small pick up truck.  The Transit Connect is built on a Focus chassis, they could make that a unibody pickup instead with some sort of 1 liter ecoboost engine.

    Hell...just make the Mustang and Focus like the Corvair of the early 1960's with seemingly dozens of sub models that sell in small numbers. 

    1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

    News flash, buddy. Just like the rest of the auto sales, most all of police fleets are Explorers. 

    We have several other Ford SUV's in police fleets around here...but Ford SUV's in police fleets seem to be about like sand on the sea shore. 

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    1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

    They should turn the Focus into a small pick up truck.  The Transit Connect is built on a Focus chassis, they could make that a unibody pickup instead with some sort of 1 liter ecoboost engine.

    it would sell...

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    1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

    They should turn the Focus into a small pick up truck.  The Transit Connect is built on a Focus chassis, they could make that a unibody pickup instead with some sort of 1 liter ecoboost engine.

    I truly believe a Mini Pickup Truck market exists for a 2 or 3 person only truck that the Inner City folks would love to own. Yet the auto industry sees no value or Profit here I guess so no more Mini trucks.

    Early Chevrolet Luv truck

    Datsun mini truck

    early Ford Ranger

    They sold well and many liked them before full size and mid size took over. Now the mid and full are so close to each other that I think you could have room for a mini pickup.

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    47 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

    it would sell...

    They can even call it Ranchero.  It would sell 4 times the volume of a 4 door Mustang.

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    8 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    They should turn the Focus into a small pick up truck.  The Transit Connect is built on a Focus chassis...

    Quote

    The Transit Connect was introduced in Europe in October 2002 as the replacement for car-derived vans based on the Escort and the Fiesta but as it is built on a dedicated commercial vehicle platform it is not a car derived van itself.

    This is 'cute' (tho it could use a 6-in chop) ~

    5818442s-960.jpg

    But find 250,000 buyers?? I don't think so, not remotely. Especially since today, it would only come out as something like this ~

    PU.jpg

    TC as it is only has a 1600 payload rating. The resulting 3.5' x 2.5' bed would be completely useless- just stick with the TC as a van.

    Edited by balthazar
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      “I have worked side-by-side with Jim Farley for the past three years and have the greatest confidence in him as a person and a leader,” Hackett said. “He has been instrumental in crafting our new product portfolio and redesigning our businesses around the world. He is also a change agent with a deep understanding of how to lead Ford in this new era defined by smart vehicles in a smart world.”
      Said Farley: “I love Ford and I am honored by the opportunity to serve and create value for Ford’s employees, customers, dealers, communities and all of our stakeholders. Jim Hackett has laid the foundation for a really vibrant future and we have made tremendous progress in the past three years. I am so excited to work together with the whole Ford team to realize the full potential of this great company in a new era.”

      View full article
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