BigPontiac

GM And The Auto Worker

25 posts in this topic

A very good read.... I'm very torn on this issue. I've ranted and raved against the UAW for a LONG time. But, the reality of the situation is that we are dealing with people. People who's lifestyles will be adversely effected in a very negative way. It's not just a corporate entity were talking about, it's peoples lives, savings and futures. I come from blue collar roots and I've been a part of a major union (Teamsters) and I feel bad that these people are going to be hit so hard. BUT, it is vital for the survival of the company and there is no other alternative. On that note, I do agree that paycuts should be taken across the board, including all the way up to Wagoner but not as drastic in middle management as they already get paid less than line workers (To the best of my knowledge)
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Yes but even he did not care to address, why health care is so expensive, yet so profitable in this country ? Nor why there is outside competition from exploited labor countries and why we Americans are supposed to stoop to that level. 16 dollars an hour in 79 was a fair and decent wage, I was at $10 in 79 carrying concrete block for a non union mason. Just to give a realistic comparision. Remember now we want Delphi workers to work for 1 dollar an hour less than I was earning in 79... thats 24 years ago. You know when car insurance was 220 a year, property taxes were 300 a year, a fair morgage was 3-400 a month. A Doctors or Dentist visit was 25 bucks. Then he says the 25 per is 50% more. which is 12.50 and those workers have no or little bene's ? Now this shows how fast we are flyin backwards, yet lurching forward.
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A very good read....

I'm very torn on this issue.

I've ranted and raved against the UAW for a LONG time. But, the reality of the situation is that we are dealing with people. People who's lifestyles will be adversely effected in a very negative way. It's not just a corporate entity were talking about, it's peoples lives, savings and futures.

I come from blue collar roots and I've been a part of a major union (Teamsters) and I feel bad that these people are going to be hit so hard. BUT, it is vital for the survival of the company and there is no other alternative.

On that note, I do agree that paycuts should be taken across the board, including all the way up to Wagoner but not as drastic in middle management as they already get paid less than line workers (To the best of my knowledge)

[post="35713"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]


GM's white collar employees have all gotten the shaft. Their pay is pitiful compared to what other engineers are making, and morale is very low.

The executives of GM don't make that much money compared to some other companies the size of GM, whose CEO's take home 10-100 times as much as what Wagoner and Lutz are paid.
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GM's white collar employees have all gotten the shaft.  Their pay is pitiful compared to what other engineers are making, and morale is very low. 

The executives of GM don't make that much money compared to some other companies the size of GM, whose CEO's take home 10-100 times as much as what Wagoner and Lutz are paid.

[post="35790"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I'll ask that you prove white collar workers morale is "very low" with facts to back up your statements?

Myself on the other hand, see it first hand that UAW morale is extremly low. Being in a Blue Collar town you see many things most others do not.
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Yes but even he did not care to address, why health care is so expensive, yet so profitable in this country ?

Nor why there is outside competition from exploited labor countries and why we Americans are supposed to stoop to that level.

16 dollars an hour in 79 was a fair and decent wage, I was at $10 in 79 carrying concrete block for a non union mason. Just to give a realistic comparision. Remember now we want Delphi workers to work for 1 dollar an hour less than I was earning in 79... thats 24 years ago.

You know when car insurance was 220 a year, property taxes were 300 a year, a fair morgage was 3-400 a month. A Doctors or Dentist visit was 25 bucks.

Then he says the 25 per is 50% more. which is 12.50 and those workers have no or little bene's ?

Now this shows how fast we are flyin backwards, yet lurching forward.

[post="35731"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]


I agree...

The real issues are out of the control of both the UAW and GM...

And it's far too late for the government to act (As if they were ever going to anyway)

And Josh brings up the downside to this... If the UAW does accept cuts then how will morale affect quality? I know I'd be pretty pissed to have to take a pay cut and destroy my family's lifestyle and GM would be the easiest (But not really the right) target.
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my brother in law and myself talk about this stuff a lot lately. the proliferation of large companies and their taking over of the country, everything is franchised, large multinational, etc. this and that. our economy will become eroded if we move too far in the direction of a service economy. yet many in our nation have jobs dependent on the health of these companies. Personally, I think we have evolved to a selfish culture that encourages many in business to only look at short term company benefits in the US. What do we need to do to boost our next quarterly stock price? As opposed to 'building the company for the next 30 years'. Our business leaders get big outrageous pay, take jobs in high positions and move from company to company depending on whether the business hust down after a stock crash and they wanted to bail, or whether they wanted to take an insanely lucrative offer. We really need to eradicate our nation's culture of our Walmart mentality, but our desire to have 'exotic' things. We seem to all need to draw our esteem and standing in the social world on the products we buy? I think a lot of this is what is driving the import buying frenzy...as much as the whole 'they build better cars' thing. Its reached a cultural phenomenon where we automatically assume products produced here suck and are for rednecks and poor folk and dumb asses only. At least in some social circles. Want proof? I picked up my new Five Hundred yesterday, and already two people had a horrified response when i told them i got a Ford. What, I didn't get a HONDA or TOYOTA? I guess part of why I picked out a 500 was a maybe felt compelled to contribute to the US pot. It wasn't a big reason, but it was enough that I sure did consider it. Beyond that, most folks don't care. Most folks only care what kind of cell phone they have or if their clothes are from Abercrombie or Express. About 2 months ago I was riding with some coworkers to a work function and the conversation swung around to cars because one of our interior designers picked up her new AUDI. Sure, I like Audis but i didn't participate. It did become a 'Honda is so great everything they build is God' sort of thing. I just kep tme trap shut. If the president of my company says Hondas are God, fine I guess I better not openly disagree if I want to remain in good standing. I'm just saying that this is culture nowadays. The 'movers and shakers' and style mavenc of our culture have told the world what is 'right' to drive and its NOT GM and not Ford. What I am saying in a roundabout way is if GM and Ford could ever repair their image to the point where their market shares increased again, then I think it would help to strengthen manufacturing jobs. The benefits to workers are not going to be won only at negotiation tables, but by totally changing how the public feels about products American companies make. And there is the Japanese govt and their currency manipulation........... Edited by regfootball
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Dead on Reg ! I agree with Josh about seeing proof of these jobs that pay 100 times what Wagoner makes. Or 10 times what others make. then Id like to know what they do really earn and then Id like to hear about what makes them worth more than $80,000 a year. Shouldnt have any problems living a good life on $80,000 :blink: I think everything they make in excess of $80,000 should be givin back by concession then divided up amounst the employees that get the job done. If someone out there is makeing 100 million a year, I would suggest they pay their employees better.
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I think everything they make in excess of $80,000 should be givin back by concession then divided up amounst the employees that get the job done.

Wow, just wow. I sure as hell wouldnt take the task of running a company with over 300,000 employees for $80,000 a year. The whole point of working harder to get to the top is to make more money. If it were up to you, you would be more rewarded for not going to school, and staying in the plants. Every capitalist that helped build this country into what it is must be turning in their graves with that comment.
How about we take all your money and give it to people working at McDonalds, because they cant afford to pay their rent off $5.15 an hour?
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Wow, just wow. I sure as hell wouldnt take the task of running a company with over 300,000 employees for $80,000 a year. The whole point of working harder to get to the top is to make more money. If it were up to you, you would be more rewarded for not going to school, and staying in the plants. Every capitalist that helped build this country into what it is must be turning in their graves with that comment.
How about we take all your money and give it to people working at McDonalds, because they cant afford to pay their rent off $5.15 an hour?

[post="35871"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]


There is a difference between being well-paid when the company is doing well and still drawing a large salary when the company is failing.
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There is a difference between being well-paid when the company is doing well and still drawing a large salary when the company is failing.

[post="35877"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I'm pretty sure he meant no matter what, even with the company thriving.
I'm not saying they should be paid millions when the company is on the verge of collapsing. I can see reducing their pay to $80,000 until the company is profitable again, but not permanently. CEOs and other top positions dont just sit around all day doing nothing in their office. Usually, their life revolves around their job. They take work home with them. They are not just putting in their hours and calling it a day. Edited by CaddyXLR-V
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I'm pretty sure he meant no matter what, even with the company thriving.

[post="35878"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]


To be honest, I didn't really read what he said for...yeah...reasons. :P
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http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/b...ascity_business

Gretchen Morgenson writes for The New York Times

Debunking executive pay myths
While investors have railed about skyrocketing executive pay, the response from executive suites has been a confounding silence. Even directors, who have a fiduciary duty to put shareholders’ interests before those of managers, have been unwilling to stop the insanity.

Last year the average pay package for chief executives at big companies came in at $10 million, up 13 percent from 2003. In view of the pension and health insurance givebacks being forced upon lower-level workers, this surge is especially obscene.

That the people on the receiving end of these enormous transfers of shareholder wealth want them to continue is no surprise. “What’s in it for me?” is the way we live now. Still, letting excessive pay escalate every year hurts the already battered reputations of American executives. From that standpoint, the silence has been baffling.

Finally, however, a CEO, albeit an emeritus one, is talking tough about outrageous pay and pliant boards. In a speech taped for showing to directors at a compensation conference Oct. 31 in Chicago, Edgar S. Woolard Jr., the former chief executive of DuPont and the current chairman of the New York Stock Exchange’s compensation committee, debunks the main myths of executive pay.

Woolard, 71, does the debunking with style. He has one word, for example, to describe the notion that chief executive pay is driven by competition: “bull.” And to the idea that compensation committees are independent, he says “double bull.”

What about the doctrine that chiefs deserve stupefying amounts because they create wealth for shareholders? “A joke,” Woolard says.

“I honestly don’t understand why more CEOs aren’t concerned about the image of business leaders in general,” Woolard said in an interview.

“They don’t seem to have the same perception I do that business leaders are beginning to be thought of as politicians and labor union leaders and other types of individuals who don’t have the right respect. So I’m speaking out because I would like to encourage other current CEOs to provide the leadership to begin to make the change to more rational compensation.”

For example, he said, most people do not know that compensation committees are not independent of the chief executive. He described the workings of these typically close relationships:

“The compensation committee talks to an outside consultant who has surveys that you could drive a truck through and pay anything you want to pay, to be perfectly honest,” Woolard said. “The outside consultant talks to the HR vice president, who talks to the CEO. The CEO says what he’d like to receive. It gets to the HR person who tells the outside consultant. And it pretty well works out that the CEO gets what he’s implied he thinks he deserves, so he will be respected by his peers.”

Executives often contend that their pay is driven by competition. Woolard counters that the outside consultants are in control. If the consultants want to be rehired in future years, they will not hurt their chances by suggesting that a chief receive less than his peers.

A solution, Woolard said, is a strategy known as internal pay equity, in which a chief executive’s compensation is based on a premium over the next rung of executives at the company.

Finally, Woolard knocks down the idea that chief executives deserve their riches because of the shareholder wealth they have created. The idea was sold in the 1990s when the stock market was rising rapidly, he said, “but the base of CEO compensation that was built during that artificial period is a base that is still used today.”

In other words, a lot of these emperors have no clothes.

The video of Woolard’s speech can be seen at
http://www.compensationstandards.com/nonme...olard_video.asp

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Wow, just wow. I sure as hell wouldnt take the task of running a company with over 300,000 employees for $80,000 a year. The whole point of working harder to get to the top is to make more money. If it were up to you, you would be more rewarded for not going to school, and staying in the plants. Every capitalist that helped build this country into what it is must be turning in their graves with that comment.
How about we take all your money and give it to people working at McDonalds, because they cant afford to pay their rent off $5.15 an hour?

[post="35871"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]


First - Thanks for the chuckly Fly, but perhaps you should read some of what I write. Its very very simple to understand. I just ask the questions no one wants to answer. Thats why they have yet to be answered, all anyone has come up with is calling me lazy and telling me, I feel myself and other Americans are entitled. Well ya know what, we are entitled to make a good living, we're hardworking Americans, daughters and sons of hard working Americans who were daughters and sons of other hard working Americans so on and so forth. Do you all think this country came to be what it is because all those men and woman rolled over and followed some sheep herders to slaughter ? :unsure:

So, XLR :) What? did that just grab you by the 'ol spenders and shake you right where you stood ? Somehow I believe I know the feeling, dont worry though. It was just a statement, its not like something that you'll have to deal with when you go to the bank and deposit a pay check.

I hope you dont think a CEO looks over the "300,000" workers, do you ? He just a conductor, delegating dutys elsewhere. Lets just say hes probably about as busy as anybody else thats doing their job.

So if we gonna have the American workforce working for $18720 annual Id say $80,000 is livin large. That is 36 dollars an hour.... incidently. Anymore than that would be an outrage.

Whos shoe, which foot ?

B) Edited by razoredge
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How about we take all your money and give it to people working at McDonalds, because they cant afford to pay their rent off $5.15 an hour?

[post="35871"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I know of starting wages that top $5.15 at McDonalds. Hell, the nearest mom and pop store hires their busboys and dish washers at, at least $8.50 an hour. That's only $.50 lower than Delphi wishes to pay Union workers.

The end of this year is going to be bad. I know that for a fact and on very good word. I'd expect General Motors to shut down plants shortly after Thanksgiving and it will last until around the middle of January, or until Robert S. "Steve" Miller takes it easy on his cut-throat philosophy.
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First - Thanks for the chuckly Fly, but perhaps you should read some of what I write. Its very very simple to understand. I just ask the questions no one wants to answer. Thats why they have yet to be answered, all anyone has come up with is calling me lazy and telling me, I feel myself and other Americans are entitled. Well ya know what, we are entitled to make a good living, we're hardworking  Americans, daughters and sons of hard working Americans who were daughters and sons of other hard working Americans so on and so forth. Do you all think this country came to be what it is because all those men and woman rolled over and followed some sheep herders to slaughter ?  :unsure: 

So, XLR  :)  What? did that just grab you by the 'ol spenders and shake you right where you stood ? Somehow I believe I know the feeling, dont worry though. It was just a statement, its not like something that you'll have to deal with when you go to the bank and deposit a pay check.

I hope you dont think a CEO looks over the "300,000" workers, do you ? He just a conductor, delegating dutys elsewhere. Lets just say hes probably about as busy as anybody else thats doing their job.

So if we gonna have the American workforce working for $18720 annual Id say $80,000 is livin large. That is 36 dollars an hour.... incidently. Anymore than that would be an outrage.

Whos shoe, which foot ?

B)

[post="35917"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

That was hilarious. We would not have the worlds largest economy, if you were running things. Wheres the incentive to move up? Theres forklift operators making more than $80,000 a year. Why be CEO when you can have no responability at all? Why go to college? We can all be grunt workers and ship everything to China, while they are making all the money. We can all be doing the dirty work, while China and Japan take all the high tech jobs. We can become the country of the uneducated. Your ideas would have killed this country before it even started. We all have opportunities to advance in America. It's no one elses fault but your own if you dont. If you cant get smart enough to do more than a factory job, dont blame us who are. I would rather have America be developing new technologies, and inventing new things, then screwing together the stuff Japan invents.
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The end of this year is going to be bad. I know that for a fact and on very good word. I'd expect General Motors to shut down plants shortly after Thanksgiving and it will last until around the middle of January, or until Robert S. "Steve" Miller takes it easy on his cut-throat philosophy.

[post="35940"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I agree its going to be bad. It's what your left with at the end that matters most. GM has been expecting this, and I believe they have been planning for it. Selling GMAC? Selling Subaru? GM knows its gonna be long and tough.
Personally, I dont think GM is against Miller's actions.
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That was hilarious. We would not have the worlds largest economy, if you were running things. Wheres the incentive to move up? Theres forklift operators making more than $80,000 a year. Why be CEO when you can have no responability at all? Why go to college? We can all be grunt workers and ship everything to China, while they are making all the money. We can all be doing the dirty work, while China and Japan take all the high tech jobs. We can become the country of the uneducated. Your ideas would have killed this country before it even started. We all have opportunities to advance in America. It's no one elses fault but your own if you dont. If you cant get smart enough to do more than a factory job, dont blame us who are. I would rather have America be developing new technologies, and inventing new things, then screwing together the stuff Japan invents.

[post="35952"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]


Holy smokes :blink: now we have forklift operators making 80,000 a year.....now whos tellin the jokes here :lol:

We had the worlds largest, everything when things were more like what Im talking about . :lol: Not that I was interested in being the Pres. but thanks for the nomy <_<

Why are you so upset about reducing the wages of college grades to 80,000 when your happy to reduce......hold on .....what was it?.......... 98% ==== 2% of Americans population to 18,000. I though I was being very fair offering nearly 4.5 times more. think of the money we'd be saving, maybe 60,000 would be more reasonable. :P


throwin inflation out - that would mean after 4.5 years, my paisty white ass would finally be where you were after only one year. At that point the college grad would be at 360,000 while me the one who " cant get smart enough" would just reach 84,000. Then in a total 20 years will finally reach that 360,000 :blink: woot ! yee ha ! Almost as much as the average house.

Ah, no, but thanks for the generous offer. :lol:

Whos shoe, which foot ?
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I'll ask that you prove white collar workers morale is "very low" with facts to back up your statements?

Myself on the other hand, see it first hand that UAW morale is extremly low. Being in a Blue Collar town you see many things most others do not.


Anybody and everybody at GM has two choices, do the best they can under the conditions as they know it or whine just before they get hit in the butt by a door on their way out.

There are no garrantees anywhere anymore for the common man, except that dealing with Comcast is sure to frustrate you.
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Anybody and everybody at GM has two choices, do the best they can under the conditions as they know it or whine just before they get hit in the butt by a door on their way out.

There are no garrantees anywhere anymore for the common man, except that dealing with Comcast is sure to frustrate you.

[post="36075"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]


IMO work ethics as a whole have slid down a slippery slope for decades.
I personally know several gm factory workers(no not all are like this) that actually
work maybe 5 of 8 hours or even have someone else punch them in and out. yet they have free healthcare. Bitch bitch bitch. No offence to the real good employees. <_<
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The executives of GM don't make that much money compared to some other companies the size of GM, whose CEO's take home 10-100 times as much as what Wagoner and Lutz are paid.

[post="35790"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]


Logically the GM executives' pay should be compared to GM hourly workers, not the executives of some of other company.
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I know of starting wages that top $5.15 at McDonalds. Hell, the nearest mom and pop store hires their busboys and dish washers at, at least $8.50 an hour. That's only $.50 lower than Delphi wishes to pay Union workers.

The end of this year is going to be bad. I know that for a fact and on very good word. I'd expect General Motors to shut down plants shortly after Thanksgiving and it will last until around the middle of January, or until Robert S. "Steve" Miller takes it easy on his cut-throat philosophy.

[post="35940"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]


I think it depends on where you live. While the workers by you wasing dishes and bussing table will make only .50 less than the Delphi wages, in other areas that is the case. Most jobs like that here (plus jobs at fast food places, supermarkets, malls...basically many MANY jobs) are still paying minimum wage or very close to it...which means those proposed Delphi wages are not 'just 50 cents' more..but rather $3.00+ more an hour.
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IMO work ethics as a whole have slid down a slippery slope for decades.
I personally know several gm factory workers(no not all are like this) that actually
work maybe 5 of 8 hours or even have someone else punch them in and out. yet they have free healthcare. Bitch bitch bitch. No offence to the real good employees. <_<

[post="36095"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]


I have one friend who works at a gm engine plant....he falls into the category of making 90% of his pay for staying home (job bank I beleive it's refered to).

He is still getting paid more than just about every single one of his freinds...yet he goes weeks sometimes without working. I think he has stayed home more than he has worked this year.
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I think it depends on where you live. While the workers by you wasing dishes and bussing table will make only .50 less than  the Delphi wages, in other areas that is the case.  Most jobs like that here (plus jobs at fast food places, supermarkets, malls...basically many MANY jobs) are still paying minimum wage or very close to it...which means those proposed Delphi wages are not 'just 50 cents' more..but rather $3.00+ more an hour.

[post="36203"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]


Wow ! 3 bucks an hour.

There is not a job around here that a man can not get and start at 12.00 an hour. If they like you and want to keep you you will be at 14-16 in no time. Long standing employee will be over 20 within 5-8 years. A youngster with little work experience will start lower, around 10.

Myself Im ashamed that humans will sell themselfs as cheap as your area. They gain nothing by working for peanuts. Only proving ignorance to the wealth within this country. Where do they live ? At home with ma and pa ? What do the do with all their money ? A 12 pack on Sundays ?
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I have one friend who works at a gm engine plant....he falls into the category of making 90% of his pay for staying home (job bank I beleive it's refered to).

He is still getting paid more than just about every single one of his freinds...yet he goes weeks sometimes without working.  I think he has stayed home more than he has worked this year.

[post="36205"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]


I am still having problems getting my head around this idea. It just seems very bizzare and where can I join up. My only issue would be keeping busy as I get bored easily. :rolleyes:

I have worked for a car company in NZ as a 'white collar' employee and I can assure you that alot of 'those' office people put in hours way beyond what they are paid for. If you work out their hourly rate on hours worked things don't look so rosy.

A normal work day (what you get paid for) would be 7 to 7 1/2 hours but arriving at 7:30am and leaving at 8:00pm is not uncommon (no overtime here guys). Then you can go into the office on a Saturday and find people spending their day off there.
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