Jump to content
William Maley

VW News: Volkswagen Still Set On Loss-Leader Phaeton

Recommended Posts

Trying to figure out the logic of Volkswagen concerning the next-generation Phaeton is a very difficult task. The German automaker loses 28,000 euros (about $31,598) on every Phaeton built. Also the automaker has announced a cost-cutting plan that a plan to save 5 billion euros ($5.7 billion) annually in the coming years. Yet, Reuters is reporting that Volkswagen is going forward with the next-generation Phaeton due sometime in 2017 or 2018.

"Economically speaking, it's the most irrational project. Piech and Winterkorn simply cannot let go of their fondness for luxury products,"said Evercore ISI analyst Arndt Ellinghorst.

How irrational are we talking about? Analysts say that next-generation Phaeton using the MLB platform could cost as much as 650 million euros (about $737 million). Even some Volkswagen executives are wondering why the Phaeton is still around.

"That's a dangerous question. It's an image bearer with no relevance for volume," said Volkswagen's U.S. Head Michael Horn.

Source: Reuters

Click here to view the article

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But it will come back to haunt them. This will be a money pit that will cost a few men their jobs in the long haul.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No point to this car, they need to let it die already.  They thin a VW can compete with an S-class?  That is a waste of $737 million.  They could make it compete with the Equus or K900, but that isn't enough sales volume, and no point to do that.  If someone wants a $75k luxury car from VW, they can buy an A8.

 

The other problem is a Passat starts at $22k and then the Phaeton is one step up at $75k?  A $50k price difference and they look the same!  I think VW could use a sedan larger than the Passat, priced in the $33-43k range, as more of an Azera, Maxima, Impala and LaCrosse competitor.  But by no means should they make a $75k sedan.  That would be like Chevy making a $75k full size luxury sedan to compete with Cadillac.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If NOTHING "competed" with the S-class, there would be no A8, no 750i, no Quatroporte, no XJ... and no other sedan in the general price range.

 

Yet, there are.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Quatroporte and XJ are barely competing.  Really they should just give up.  Since the A8 platform gets used for Bentley too, they might as well take the $737 million for the Phaeton and put it into the A8, maybe they can sort of catch up to the S-class.  Because now Mercedes is coming for Bentley too with the Maybach S600.   VW should have a $30-40k sedan above the Passat as their Maxima/Avalon competitor, sort of a poor man's Audi A6 I guess.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So should mercedes "give up" on super high end option trims because "no one buys them"??

 

Maybach is saddled with the stink of recent failure, I don't see it being a draw of any measurable means. Bringing it back into the 'MB' brand allows MB to hide whatever dismal take rates it manages, and cutting it's price in HALF at least gives it a fighting chance. I just hope MB isn't looking to previous well-heeled maybach buyers to forget the 3rd degree burning they took in hindsight. Mercedes should "give up" on a 'Maybach'. Again.

 

 

Fact remains; these other models in the same price tier are there because some consumers obviously don't gravitate to the 'Hello Kitty' of luxury sedans.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

S-Class is OVER RATED! Being in a few I have yet to see why they charge so much as it does not register with me but then I guess not being part of the billionaire class I cannot fathom the badge snob of it either.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

S-Class is OVER RATED! Being in a few I have yet to see why they charge so much as it does not register with me but then I guess not being part of the billionaire class I cannot fathom the badge snob of it either.

S-class has been the best car in the world for the past 30 years.  I don't think the best in the world can be overrated.  Few cars have had that long a run at the top of their class, 3-series is probably the only other one.  The Phaeton can't even compete with the A8, there is no point in VW making it.  They should put those resources into the Jetta and Passat and get them more competitive.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

S-Class is OVER RATED! Being in a few I have yet to see why they charge so much as it does not register with me but then I guess not being part of the billionaire class I cannot fathom the badge snob of it either.

S-class has been the best car in the world for the past 30 years.  I don't think the best in the world can be overrated.  Few cars have had that long a run at the top of their class, 3-series is probably the only other one.  The Phaeton can't even compete with the A8, there is no point in VW making it.  They should put those resources into the Jetta and Passat and get them more competitive.

 

 

Says who and on what metrics?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

S-Class is OVER RATED! Being in a few I have yet to see why they charge so much as it does not register with me but then I guess not being part of the billionaire class I cannot fathom the badge snob of it either.

S-class has been the best car in the world for the past 30 years.  I don't think the best in the world can be overrated.  Few cars have had that long a run at the top of their class, 3-series is probably the only other one.  The Phaeton can't even compete with the A8, there is no point in VW making it.  They should put those resources into the Jetta and Passat and get them more competitive.

 

Considering how MB whores out the S class to the Taxi Fleets of Europe and has to so heavily discount them to sell here, I would like to see metrics that show this is truly the worlds best selling luxury auto besides just pointing to sales numbers.

 

If it is such the best car you speak of, then why do you not see S class auto's past 5 to 10 years on the roads? Is it possibly due to them not being able to last? Give more than just pointing at Sales numbers please.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

S-Class is OVER RATED! Being in a few I have yet to see why they charge so much as it does not register with me but then I guess not being part of the billionaire class I cannot fathom the badge snob of it either.

S-class has been the best car in the world for the past 30 years.  I don't think the best in the world can be overrated.  Few cars have had that long a run at the top of their class, 3-series is probably the only other one.  The Phaeton can't even compete with the A8, there is no point in VW making it.  They should put those resources into the Jetta and Passat and get them more competitive.

 

 

You know who's had a car at the top of their class longer... much much longer? Chevrolet. 

The Phaeton is a Genesis/K900/Lexus LS competitor. A loaded long wheel base Phaeton is about $100k, so that gets just above base price on the S-Class. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

S-Class is OVER RATED! Being in a few I have yet to see why they charge so much as it does not register with me but then I guess not being part of the billionaire class I cannot fathom the badge snob of it either.

S-class has been the best car in the world for the past 30 years.  I don't think the best in the world can be overrated.  Few cars have had that long a run at the top of their class, 3-series is probably the only other one.  The Phaeton can't even compete with the A8, there is no point in VW making it.  They should put those resources into the Jetta and Passat and get them more competitive.

 

Considering how MB whores out the S class to the Taxi Fleets of Europe and has to so heavily discount them to sell here, I would like to see metrics that show this is truly the worlds best selling luxury auto besides just pointing to sales numbers.

 

If it is such the best car you speak of, then why do you not see S class auto's past 5 to 10 years on the roads? Is it possibly due to them not being able to last? Give more than just pointing at Sales numbers please.

 

It is a major financial liability to own and operate an S-Class outside of its warranty. That's why they have such terrible depreciation. People who make the mistake of buying an S-Class rather than taking one of the MB Subsidized leases can look forward to losing an entire E-Class in depreciation in just 36 months. Sounds like a great car to me. 

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The problem for the current Phaeton is that it has not been updated significantly since it was first on sale here in 2004. One would find it difficult to tell the difference between a 2004 interior and a 2015 interior.

 

I'd imagine that with the next Phaeton, VW is planning some major cost cutting and parts sharing that will push the car closer to if not inside the black.   Might even see a bit of a price drop too.  Dropping the price to match the Koreans just might get some more people to buy.... yes it is a "People's" brand, but it is slightly more trusted than Kia/Hyundai.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What I liked about the previous Phaeton was the principal behind its build. Pieche wanted the best without compromise to shove in face of BMW and MB and even Audi. The car did grueling testing in extreme weathers at high speeds to check reliability. Too bad badge snobs beat it down.

 

I wouldn't mind owning one of the W12s sometime as you can find a good piece for $~15k. To me it was better than the S Class then, which was full of compromises.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sadly for the Phaeton the interior space was just too little. A big person like me could never get comfortable in the front seat let alone sit in the back seat.

 

Plus this auto should be competing against Buick, Acura, Lincoln, etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sadly for the Phaeton the interior space was just too little. A big person like me could never get comfortable in the front seat let alone sit in the back seat.

 

Plus this auto should be competing against Buick, Acura, Lincoln, etc.

 

oookay... so the Phaeton is a fairly huge car as sedans go these days. The rear seat is ginormous....   You're simply going to have to start building your own car or have your legs amputated if you can't get into the back of a Phaeton....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

S-class has been the best car in the world for the past 30 years.

That is hilarious. 2015 – 30 = 1985. Here's the interior of an '85 s-class :

 

the-mercedes-benz-s-class-of-the-w-126-s

 

Giant black rubber steering wheel, mouse fur upholstery, horrible unpainted plastics, it just REEKS of cheapness. Mercedes interiors in the '80s were horrible, horrible, horrible; SL is in a dead heat for the barrel bottom here, too. 

 

It was only by benchmarking Cadillac in this era that MB was able to move ahead. You're a full decade optimistic on this claim.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Phaeton did post good rear compartment numbers.

Legroom- frt: 41.7, rr: 43.1 for a total of 84.8. Not as good as my B-59 coupe, but close. ;)

 

The product planners who green lit a car squarely in the upper audi range clearly didn't know what they were doing. 

Ego has probably had a higher cost in business than most other causes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

S-class has been the best car in the world for the past 30 years.

That is hilarious. 2015 – 30 = 1985. Here's the interior of an '85 s-class :

 

the-mercedes-benz-s-class-of-the-w-126-s

 

Giant black rubber steering wheel, mouse fur upholstery, horrible unpainted plastics, it just REEKS of cheapness. Mercedes interiors in the '80s were horrible, horrible, horrible; SL is in a dead heat for the barrel bottom here, too. 

 

It was only by benchmarking Cadillac in this era that MB was able to move ahead. You're a full decade optimistic on this claim.

 

 

 

Oooh boy! 4-Speed dial fan control! Completely unmarked vent control (I bet it's cable operated too!) Giant toggle switches from JC Whitney and a Honda Accord gauge cluster.

 
For reference, here was what Lincoln was doing in 1985:
 

post-51-0-09068100-1423868412_thumb.jpg

 

Technically this is an '83, but the only difference is the steering column and wheel. 

So here's a second view 

post-51-0-64493200-1423868554_thumb.jpg

 

Fully Automatic, push button climate control. Set it and forget it... no twiddling with dials to adjust fan speed. This was standard, not optional like on the Benz and controled fan speed and temperature rather than just temperature like on the Benz.

Cruise control on the steering wheel (something Benz STILL hasn't done)

It's a full digital dash plus a rather extensive trip computer with real time fuel economy, distance to empty, Estimated time of arrival, gallons of fuel used, gallons of fuel left (yes, it actually gave you a number rather than E - F)

Automatic headlamps AND high beams.

.... and a much cleaner overall look.

This Continental had roughly the same horsepower and torque in base form as the optional upgrade 5.0 in the Benz..... in a fantastic bit of irony, the Continental was pushrod while the Benz was SOHC. 

 

Then there is the Mark VII

 

post-51-0-22784600-1423869303_thumb.jpg

post-51-0-86372200-1423869303_thumb.jpg

 

Bit of a sportier flare, again it is actually computerized.

 

Both Lincolns had an early form of traction control and skid control. 

 

Then there's the Eldorado and Seville.  These were less than a year from being redesigned into a new body, but here they are with digital dashboard, trip computers, automatic headlamps/high beams and fully automatic push button climate control.

 

post-51-0-52031600-1423870335_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The W126 S-class is the best selling S-class ever, with over 892,000 sold.  That car really expanded the global presence of Mercedes, probably more than any other car in their history.  You could make a claim that the W116 S-class was the best car in the world, especially with the 6.9 V8.  That was mid 70s, so that puts it on a 40 year run as the top luxury car in the world.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Your content will need to be approved by a moderator

Guest
You are commenting as a guest. If you have an account, please sign in.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoticons maximum are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.




  • Today's Birthdays

    1. bcs296
      bcs296
      Age: 30
    2. jcgable
      jcgable
      Age: 31
  • Similar Content

    • By William Maley
      We cannot fault anyone who forgets Kia sells a flagship sedan. No, we're not talking about the Stinger. We're referring to the K900 which sounds like the name of a knock-off Doctor Who character. Later this year, Kia will be launching the second-generation K900 in select markets like the U.S.. Today, Kia dropped a teaser photo of the new model.
      Compared to the current K900, the new model looks much leaner and the A-Pillar has been pushed back slightly. The headlights feature LED accents. We think the new K900 will use the underpinnings of the Genesis G90, which would allow it to have rear and all-wheel drive. Engines are expected to be the twin-turbo 3.3L V6 and 5.0L V8.
      As for when we'll see it, some believe it will debut at Geneva while others have it at New York. Our money is on New York.
      (Author's Note: I actually reviewed the K900 back in 2015 and thought it was a nice sedan for the money. You can check out the review here. -WM)
      Source: Kia 
      Press Release is on Page 2


      Kia previews second-generation K900
      Kia Motors has previewed its flagship luxury sedan, the K900, ahead of its world debut later in the year.
      The new model combines sophisticated exterior design, effortless performance and a spacious cabin distinguished by luxurious materials and elegant styling. New technologies protect occupants, enhance interior comfort and give the driver greater confidence at the wheel.
      Created through joint efforts by Kia’s designers in Korea and in the U.S., the new K900 will be manufactured at the company’s production facility in Korea. The new flagship sedan will go on sale in selected global markets from the second quarter of 2018.

      View full article
    • By William Maley
      We cannot fault anyone who forgets Kia sells a flagship sedan. No, we're not talking about the Stinger. We're referring to the K900 which sounds like the name of a knock-off Doctor Who character. Later this year, Kia will be launching the second-generation K900 in select markets like the U.S.. Today, Kia dropped a teaser photo of the new model.
      Compared to the current K900, the new model looks much leaner and the A-Pillar has been pushed back slightly. The headlights feature LED accents. We think the new K900 will use the underpinnings of the Genesis G90, which would allow it to have rear and all-wheel drive. Engines are expected to be the twin-turbo 3.3L V6 and 5.0L V8.
      As for when we'll see it, some believe it will debut at Geneva while others have it at New York. Our money is on New York.
      (Author's Note: I actually reviewed the K900 back in 2015 and thought it was a nice sedan for the money. You can check out the review here. -WM)
      Source: Kia 
      Press Release is on Page 2


      Kia previews second-generation K900
      Kia Motors has previewed its flagship luxury sedan, the K900, ahead of its world debut later in the year.
      The new model combines sophisticated exterior design, effortless performance and a spacious cabin distinguished by luxurious materials and elegant styling. New technologies protect occupants, enhance interior comfort and give the driver greater confidence at the wheel.
      Created through joint efforts by Kia’s designers in Korea and in the U.S., the new K900 will be manufactured at the company’s production facility in Korea. The new flagship sedan will go on sale in selected global markets from the second quarter of 2018.
    • By William Maley
      Some interesting news came out of Chicago concerning Volkswagen.
      First up, Autoblog reports that the next-generation Passat will be coming out next year. Volkswagen's North American CEO Hinrich Woebcken revealed this during a roundtable with journalists at the show. Not many details are known about the Passat. It is hinted that it could grow in size and feature styling similar to the new Jetta. One detail that is certain is that Passat will continue to be built at Volkswagen's Chattanooga, TN plant.
      Volkswagen's first electric model for the U.S., the I.D. Crozz is expected to launch in 2020. According to Car and Driver, the Crozz will come in two body styles - the coupe-like crossover we've seen as a concept and a traditional SUV. Volkswagen’s head of design, Klaus Bischoff revealed that the traditional SUV would be first, followed by the coupe-like crossover at a later date.
      Source: Autoblog, Car and Driver

      View full article
    • By William Maley
      Some interesting news came out of Chicago concerning Volkswagen.
      First up, Autoblog reports that the next-generation Passat will be coming out next year. Volkswagen's North American CEO Hinrich Woebcken revealed this during a roundtable with journalists at the show. Not many details are known about the Passat. It is hinted that it could grow in size and feature styling similar to the new Jetta. One detail that is certain is that Passat will continue to be built at Volkswagen's Chattanooga, TN plant.
      Volkswagen's first electric model for the U.S., the I.D. Crozz is expected to launch in 2020. According to Car and Driver, the Crozz will come in two body styles - the coupe-like crossover we've seen as a concept and a traditional SUV. Volkswagen’s head of design, Klaus Bischoff revealed that the traditional SUV would be first, followed by the coupe-like crossover at a later date.
      Source: Autoblog, Car and Driver
    • By William Maley
      Nearly after a year since Volkswagen unveiled the replacement for the CC at the Geneva Motor Show, the 2019 Arteon made its U.S. debut at the Chicago Auto Show today.
      Volkswagen will only offer the Arteon with their turbocharged 2.0L four-cylinder producing 268 horsepower and 258 pound-feet of torque. This will come paired with an eight-speed automatic (sorry, no six-speed manual will be on offer) and the choice of front or Volkswagen's 4Motion all-wheel drive. An adaptive damping system that adjusts the overall dynamics of the vehicle is standard on all Arteon trims.
      Volkswagen will offer the Arteon in three different trims - SE, SEL, and SEL Premium. SE models come equipped with a proximity key with push-button start, 8-inch touchscreen infotainment system with Apple CarPlay and Android Auto integration; three-zone automatic climate control, blind spot monitoring, forward collision warning, and automatic emergency braking. SEL and SEL Premium models add a power liftgate, Volkswagen's digital cockpit system, panoramic sunroof, adaptive cruise control, automatic high beams, and lane departure warning.
      Pricing hasn't been announced, but we wouldn't be surprised if the Arteon starts above the Passat V6 SEL Premium ($34,650) when it arrives at dealers in the third quarter.
      Source: Volkswagen
      Press Release is on Page 2


      ALL-NEW 2019 VOLKSWAGEN ARTEON MAKES U.S. DEBUT AT THE CHICAGO AUTO SHOW
      The all-new Volkswagen brand halo has the space of a mid-sized sedan married to the sleek design of a premium coupe, as well as innovative technology and driver assistance features
      Arteon is based off the award-winning MQB architecture Arteon features a wide, planted stance, short overhangs, and sleek coupe-like design Upscale interior features premium materials and modern design 268 hp 2.0-liter TSI® engine is paired with a standard eight-speed automatic transmission and optional 4Motion® all-wheel drive Standard features include: 18-inch aluminum-alloy wheels, full LED headlights, Front Assist, Blind Spot Monitor with Rear Traffic Alert, and DCC® adaptive damping Available premium features include: Volkswagen Digital Cockpit, ambient lighting, panoramic sunroof, massaging driver’s seat, and Dynaudio® premium audio Available driver assistance technology includes: Adaptive Cruise Control with Stop and Go, Lane Assist, Light Assist, Park Distance Control, Park Assist, and Area View Class leading 6-year/72,000-mile bumper-to-bumper, transferable Limited Warranty Chicago, IL – Today, Volkswagen of America, Inc., unveiled the all-new 2019 Arteon at the Chicago Auto Show. Based off the award-winning MQB platform, the newest Volkswagen flagship offers a sleek fastback design, an upscale interior, innovative technology, and available 4Motion® all-wheel drive.
      “The Arteon is Volkswagen’s brand shaper,” said Hinrich J. Woebcken, CEO of the North American Region, Volkswagen. “This car is the spiritual successor to the CC, but it is bolder and faster. Arteon has the style and performance of a luxury Gran Turismo for about the price of a fully loaded midsize sedan.”
      The Arteon is based on Volkswagen’s Modular Transverse Matrix (MQB) architecture, which allows for a more cab-backward design, giving Arteon a completely different look than the outgoing CC. Arteon’s wheelbase is more than 5 inches longer than the CC—111.9 inches compared to 106.7 inches—and is paired with shorter overhangs for more dynamic proportions. Arteon is longer and wider as well, translating into more interior space.
      The exterior design immediately sets Arteon apart from its competitors. A true fastback, it harkens more to luxury models with its wide, planted stance and sloping rear roofline. Arteon’s sleek lines are accentuated by standard LED headlights and taillights, a wide chrome grille and frameless side windows. Dual trapezoidal exhaust tips, chrome window surrounds and a rear decklid spoiler all add to the premium feel. Arteon rides on standard 18-inch aluminum-alloy wheels, with available 19-inch wheels.
      Arteon’s refined interior combines high-tech features with everyday usability. Premium materials throughout and trapezoidal design elements give the vehicle an upscale, yet modern feel. The 2019 Arteon sports heated front seats with leatherette seating surfaces as standard, and offers available ventilated front seats, massaging driver’s seat, driver memory, Nappa leather seating surfaces, and heated rear seats.  
      Standard features include KESSY keyless access and push-button start, 3-zone Climatronic® automatic climate control, and an 8-inch touchscreen infotainment system with Volkswagen Car-Net® App-Connect technology that offers compatible smartphone integration with the three major platforms—Apple CarPlay™, Android Auto™ and MirrorLink®.
      The Volkswagen Digital Cockpit is available, offering drivers a reconfigurable display of key data and the ability to position navigation data front and center for easy viewing. Other available features include Volkswagen Car-Net connected vehicle services; Dynaudio® premium audio; a panoramic sunroof; and a power trunk with Easy Open and Close, which allows drivers to walk up to the vehicle with keys in a pocket or purse and simply kick a foot under the rear bumper to pop the trunklid—closing the trunk only requires a touch of the button.
      The Arteon’s technology offerings extend beyond the cabin to include a comprehensive suite of available driver assistance technology. A rearview camera is standard, along with Forward Collision Warning and Autonomous Emergency Braking (Front Assist), and Blind Spot Monitor with Rear Traffic Alert. Available driver assistance features include: Adaptive Cruise Control (ACC) with Stop and Go; active Lane Departure Warning (Lane Assist); High Beam Control (Light Assist); Parking Steering Assistant (Park Assist) including Park Distance Control; and Overhead View Camera (Area View).
      In addition, the 2019 Arteon offers a combination of both passive and active safety systems that are engineered to meet or exceed current crash regulations. These systems include the class-exclusive Automatic Post-Collision Braking System and a reactive hood.
      The new Arteon will be powered by Volkswagen’s 2.0-liter turbocharged and direct-injection TSI® engine, making 268 horsepower and 258 pound-feet of torque. The power is taken to the front wheels via a standard eight-speed automatic transmission; 4Motion® all-wheel drive is available on every trim level. Arteon features a standard DCC® adaptive damping system, which manages the suspension’s rebound and compression rates individually, helping to improve vehicle dynamics, and a standard Start-Stop system designed to help improve fuel efficiency.
      Every Arteon model will come with the People First Warranty, America’s Best Bumper-to-Bumper New Vehicle Limited Warranty. The warranty provides coverage for six-years or 72,000-miles (whichever occurs first), and the warranty can be transferred to subsequent owners throughout the remainder of its duration.
      The 2019 Volkswagen Arteon will be available in SE, SEL, and SEL Premium trim levels and is expected to arrive at U.S. Volkswagen dealers in the third quarter of 2018.

      View full article
  • My Clubs

  • Who's Online (See full list)

About us

CheersandGears.com - Founded 2001

We  Cars

Get in touch

Follow us

Recent tweets

facebook

×