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So Chinese believe European imports are better than American too?   

And again, that is Cadillac’s problem to fix.  Cadillac knows they are at an immediate disadvantage when it comes to image, yet they don’t do a whole lot with their product line or marketing to correct it.  And this has been a 25 year problem.

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44 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

It is a very nice interior, but that does not negate the apparent fact that the CT5 has now equaled them in terms of looks and features. To be honest, the CTS was on par with the previous A6 too except in small areas that only interior fondlers sought out.. Like under the seat. 😂

Ehhhhh.. I don't dislike the CT5's interior at all but I think that A6 just looks really fancy. 

I don't see it working the best as it looks like way too much touch-ness to work everything but I think it looks great. 

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27 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

So Chinese believe European imports are better than American too?   

And again, that is Cadillac’s problem to fix.  Cadillac knows they are at an immediate disadvantage when it comes to image, yet they don’t do a whole lot with their product line or marketing to correct it.  And this has been a 25 year problem.

Europeans got to China like 15 years before Caddy. Buick was there more visible than any other GM brand. Hence the reason why Buick is selling in the numbers they do. Care to argue that? I have a real question for U..  Vehicle to vehicle.. Cadillac versus a Euro.. What justifies the higher price outside of bulls#! +? 

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This looks way better in person.  Again, GM cars don't seem to photograph well but look good in person. 

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1 hour ago, Drew Dowdell said:

This looks way better in person.  Again, GM cars don't seem to photograph well but look good in person. 

Can't wait. Probably going on Monday. Are U there now?

 

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4 minutes ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

Can't wait. Probably going on Monday. Are U there now?

 

Yup. I'll be back there tomorrow

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5 hours ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

Europeans got to China like 15 years before Caddy. Buick was there more visible than any other GM brand. Hence the reason why Buick is selling in the numbers they do. Care to argue that? I have a real question for U..  Vehicle to vehicle.. Cadillac versus a Euro.. What justifies the higher price outside of bulls#! +? 

About half of Buick’s Chinese sales are from the Excelle which competes with the Jetta and Corolla.  Buick’s China performance should be compared to VW as they operate in the same price tiers with similar products.

Lexus and Acura outsell Cadillac in the USA too, do they benefit fro the German propaganda machine? 

As for what makes the Germans better vehicle to vehicle, first is performance, example Panamera vs CT6 or X5 M vs XT6.  Next is build quality, and materials quality, next is suspension tuning, does the Escalade have active curve function that can lean the vehicle on hydraulics in a turn so it corners flat?  The GLS does.  Technology is next, the A8 is the only level 3 autonomous car on sale right now, Super Cruise is a level 2, what CT5 is getting next year is already behind Audi.  Innovation is another, the SL and S-class have 30 laser drilled holes inside the wiper blades to dispense washer fluid so the windshield is never sprayed temporarily blinding the driver, or spraying fluid over the roof or wasting washer fluid.  There is also engine refinement and interior noise level.  It is a long list.

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Posted (edited)

 

i DO LIKE THE CTS INTERIOR, BUT....

image.png

Edited by regfootball
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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, smk4565 said:

About half of Buick’s Chinese sales are from the Excelle which competes with the Jetta and Corolla.  Buick’s China performance should be compared to VW as they operate in the same price tiers with similar products.

Lexus and Acura outsell Cadillac in the USA too, do they benefit fro the German propaganda machine? 

As for what makes the Germans better vehicle to vehicle, first is performance, example Panamera vs CT6 or X5 M vs XT6.  Next is build quality, and materials quality, next is suspension tuning, does the Escalade have active curve function that can lean the vehicle on hydraulics in a turn so it corners flat?  The GLS does.  Technology is next, the A8 is the only level 3 autonomous car on sale right now, Super Cruise is a level 2, what CT5 is getting next year is already behind Audi.  Innovation is another, the SL and S-class have 30 laser drilled holes inside the wiper blades to dispense washer fluid so the windshield is never sprayed temporarily blinding the driver, or spraying fluid over the roof or wasting washer fluid.  There is also engine refinement and interior noise level.  It is a long list.

Last year in China Buick sold 1.1 Million (2018). The Excelle XT/GT sold 262K. I don't what math class U took but that is not any where near half

Also Level 3 autonomy is a lawsuit waiting to happen here in the U.S. Super-Cruise, and I've tested" works extremely well, and only small improvements should be done or allowed on the streets of the United States with over 225 million actual drivers. That number blows away all of Europe in terms of possible injuries and fatalities. Are U really so much of a zealot that U believe that GM couldn't offer Level 3 or 4 if they wanted to? 

Escalade has a MRC and various other handling mechanisms that will put the Germans on notice in a cornering debate. 

Lexus and Acura benefit from a different type of propaganda machine. Altho Acura barely outsells Cadillac which up until the end of last year simply did not have the proper CUV options available. I see Cadillac (155K 2018) outselling Acura (159K 2018)  this year once the XT6 goes on line.  Also its absolutely undeniable if Cadillac had as extensive a line up as  Audi.. it would outsell it. 223K sales of Audi with 15 cars avail vs Cadillac having 6

 

 

12 hours ago, regfootball said:

 

i DO LIKE THE CTS INTERIOR, BUT....

image.png

I see it.. What of it? Both of those interiors are gorgeous.. something that many have never argued. Why is a retention of a design cue a bad idea? Are we advocating change for the sake of change? For Godsake... I see zero wrong with the retention of the dash portions.. and think they did a helluva job in integration. The goal was to bring the interiors going forward in line with the other current offering. The CT5, XT6 were supposed to recognizable as the sisters to the XT5 and XT4. I will also point out that the gear shifter and console area are literally 95% the same as well.. AGAIN.. great integration into a new design. 

Edited by Cmicasa the Great
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12 hours ago, regfootball said:

 

i DO LIKE THE CTS INTERIOR, BUT....

image.png

Yup, Family consistency in the dash, just done better this time around with contrasting colors. I can find the same thing in MB, heck just about any European auto, Asia is where you find the really weird contrasting dash shapes.

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5 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Yup, Family consistency in the dash, just done better this time around with contrasting colors. I can find the same thing in MB, heck just about any European auto, Asia is where you find the really weird contrasting dash shapes.

That passenger side dash trim wedge is a common motif seen on countless modern vehicles. 

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5 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Yup, Family consistency in the dash, just done better this time around with contrasting colors. I can find the same thing in MB, heck just about any European auto, Asia is where you find the really weird contrasting dash shapes.

Its things like this that will never please everyone. I call it "nit-b!tching"

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Read elsewhere where a claimed BMW owner was severely disappointed the CT5 didn't look like the Escala. Here's a quickie comparison :
 

Screen Shot 2019-04-18 at 10.04.37 AM.png

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, balthazar said:

Read elsewhere where a claimed BMW owner was severely disappointed the CT5 didn't look like the Escala. Here's a quickie comparison :
 

Screen Shot 2019-04-18 at 10.04.37 AM.png

Wow.. I'm actually glad someone did that. Imagine had they simply lined up the emblems perfectly.. Its virtually the same car in front, with exception to the headlights, the bottom grille, and the hood. Its as if the Escala was a styling exercise put into context with a concept car.. then translated quite nicely into a car that was 85% its length 

 

Hey I just noticed that we have, in essence, the same avatar... LOL.. U should put over to of it "MiatsoCi et LovelyMoon" and it will be complete😎

Edited by Cmicasa the Great

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New BMW 330 does a 5.2 0-60 with a 2.0 liter motor and a sub 14 1/4 mile time. CT5 with its new downgraded 2.0 which has clocked out at 7.5 0-60 on a couple different tests of its similar weight Cadillac mates, no reason to expect much better than a 7.2 or 7.3 0-60 in a CT5. How do you win in the sales marketplace when you are 2 seconds behind.  

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1 hour ago, regfootball said:

New BMW 330 does a 5.2 0-60 with a 2.0 liter motor and a sub 14 1/4 mile time. CT5 with its new downgraded 2.0 which has clocked out at 7.5 0-60 on a couple different tests of its similar weight Cadillac mates, no reason to expect much better than a 7.2 or 7.3 0-60 in a CT5. How do you win in the sales marketplace when you are 2 seconds behind.  

WHO CARES other than badge snobs. People buying either the BMW or Cadillac models you state are not buying them as race cars and most people cannot tell the difference between 1 or 2 seconds. I honestly see no issue with a car that reaches 60 in 5 to 8 seconds as it is quick compared to most other cars.

The bigger thing is does it feel that it gets up to highway speed quick and if that feel is there in the seat of the pants with the right luxury interior and isolation from road noise, then the auto is a success that most people will like.

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I was more Meh when I first saw this, but I agree with Drew on the looks. Up close it really does have a nice clean look to it....

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There is only one question that matters: will the CT5 outsell the E-series and the 5 series?  In 2020-2025? 

Cadillac has a chance, especially with this car, but I want to see sales numbers before declaring defeat at the hands of the Germans.

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, dfelt said:

WHO CARES other than badge snobs. People buying either the BMW or Cadillac models you state are not buying them as race cars and most people cannot tell the difference between 1 or 2 seconds. I honestly see no issue with a car that reaches 60 in 5 to 8 seconds as it is quick compared to most other cars.

The bigger thing is does it feel that it gets up to highway speed quick and if that feel is there in the seat of the pants with the right luxury interior and isolation from road noise, then the auto is a success that most people will like.

that reminds of the time a few years ago when a bunch of folks here were saying that Cadillac didn't need to offer all wheel drive as an option on their rear wheel drive cars which weren't selling.  and then finally cadillac gets that all wheel drive matters and that took away the impediment to the sale.  luxury car buyers want a quick car and if the buff books or their butt in the seat tells them the car is slow, that is a big impediment to the car being purchased.  impediments that don't exist in the competition.

 

4 hours ago, riviera74 said:

There is only one question that matters: will the CT5 outsell the E-series and the 5 series?  In 2020-2025? 

Cadillac has a chance, especially with this car, but I want to see sales numbers before declaring defeat at the hands of the Germans.

Cadillac had / has a chance to sell many CTS if

-Cadillac improved the quaility of their interiors and leather.  (not sure in this case)

-if it has sexy styling (not sure it got that in this case, especially with the divergence from Caddy style and the wishbone / awkward c pillar treatment that is being universally commented on unfavorably on social media and web sites in many places.

-if the car leases cheap like the competition, which cadillac still doesn't get....how do they plan to move any.

-if the car has dynamic advantage or is not up to class average in either ride, handling or power.  the car should ride and handle well because Cadillac did finally condition buyers to expect that but if the luxury car buyer is not getting the same power in the entry model that the competition is then, see ya.  Caddy will way overprice the twin turbo six out of the market as well.  if it were a standalone option for not a ton more, the 6 vs. 4 choice would help them.  But they will bury the six cylinder option in a super expensive package i bet.

For the CT5 the issue is solved by simply tuning up the motor to more horsepower.  But for whatever reason GM screws up their new motor launches.  It should have specced out with at least the same or more power and torque than the motor it replaces.  They probably detuned it for CAFE reasons, which should not be a thing in a luxury marque.

Edited by regfootball
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CAFE is also based on sales volume, so I am not surprised that Cadillac might detune the engine for fuel economy.  This is NOT a Corvette with so few sales that it would affect CAFE number.

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, riviera74 said:

There is only one question that matters: will the CT5 outsell the E-series and the 5 series?  In 2020-2025? 

Cadillac has a chance, especially with this car, but I want to see sales numbers before declaring defeat at the hands of the Germans.

0% chance of that happening.  From what I read, the CT5 is going to be priced like a C-class.  But even at $40k, it won't get E-class volume in the USA.  The sedan market is shrinking and Mercedes has too strong a buyer loyalty.

Edited by smk4565

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4 hours ago, regfootball said:

-if the car has dynamic advantage or is not up to class average in either ride, handling or power.  the car should ride and handle well because Cadillac did finally condition buyers to expect that but if the luxury car buyer is not getting the same power in the entry model that the competition is then, see ya.  Caddy will way overprice the twin turbo six out of the market as well.  if it were a standalone option for not a ton more, the 6 vs. 4 choice would help them.  But they will bury the six cylinder option in a super expensive package i bet.

For the CT5 the issue is solved by simply tuning up the motor to more horsepower.  But for whatever reason GM screws up their new motor launches.  It should have specced out with at least the same or more power and torque than the motor it replaces.  They probably detuned it for CAFE reasons, which should not be a thing in a luxury marque.

I don't think they'll overprice the V6.  My guess is turbo V6 is in the $50k range.  Although I think interiors and brand image hurt Cadillac more than the engine.  They could make the Blackwing V8 standard and price this car at $50k and the 5-series with a 250 hp 4-banger would outsell it.

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Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

I don't think they'll overprice the V6.  My guess is turbo V6 is in the $50k range.  Although I think interiors and brand image hurt Cadillac more than the engine.  They could make the Blackwing V8 standard and price this car at $50k and the 5-series with a 250 hp 4-banger would outsell it.

good point about the interior.  I don't think the engine would be a HUGE deal if its at least able to crack that 6.5 second 0-60 range, then its not a two second gap in 0-60, if it's within a second or so of the 330 then it shouldn't be that big of a deal.  What people don't realize in the car sales environment, numbers and specs do generate interest, and if the vehicle neither has the specs nor delivers on the test drive, then it's DOA in the market.  Which for a family sedan no one cares.  For a luxury car model line it will matter to some degree because Cadillac doesn't have a huge brand following anymore for sedans like the BMW does, it needs all the internet and real test drive cred it can muster because few other than current Cadillac fans will even care otherwise.

My guess is no ttv6 stickers for less than say 57-58 thousand.  I wish the current CTS would have had an AWD Vsport package.  That would have been insane.

Good points, Cadillac is to have improved the ride and comfort, has increased cabin space, and the dash layout looks user friendly.  Its corrected those deficiencies of the CTS, and i think that bodes well for it that way.

 

Edited by regfootball

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2 hours ago, regfootball said:

good point about the interior.  I don't think the engine would be a HUGE deal if its at least able to crack that 6.5 second 0-60 range, then its not a two second gap in 0-60, if it's within a second or so of the 330 then it shouldn't be that big of a deal.  What people don't realize in the car sales environment, numbers and specs do generate interest, and if the vehicle neither has the specs nor delivers on the test drive, then it's DOA in the market.  Which for a family sedan no one cares.  For a luxury car model line it will matter to some degree because Cadillac doesn't have a huge brand following anymore for sedans like the BMW does, it needs all the internet and real test drive cred it can muster because few other than current Cadillac fans will even care otherwise.

My guess is no ttv6 stickers for less than say 57-58 thousand.  I wish the current CTS would have had an AWD Vsport package.  That would have been insane.

Good points, Cadillac is to have improved the ride and comfort, has increased cabin space, and the dash layout looks user friendly.  Its corrected those deficiencies of the CTS, and i think that bodes well for it that way.

 

A BMW M340i and C43 AMG are both $55k.  If Cadillac is pricing CT5 like those guys, then a TT V6 CT5 needs to be in that $50k-55k range, because those cars are pretty fast.  The CT5 has interior room to sell on since it is bigger than them, but it has to match them in performance too, and the C43 is probably becoming the C53 in a couple years with the new E-class engine.

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17 hours ago, smk4565 said:

A BMW M340i and C43 AMG are both $55k.  If Cadillac is pricing CT5 like those guys, then a TT V6 CT5 needs to be in that $50k-55k range, because those cars are pretty fast.  The CT5 has interior room to sell on since it is bigger than them, but it has to match them in performance too, and the C43 is probably becoming the C53 in a couple years with the new E-class engine.

The 3.0 is quite downgraded from power output vs. the CT6.  Torque is similar but in the Ct6 its 400hp, and in the CT5 it's like 335.  interesting move.  

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      · 0 replies
    • Drew Dowdell

      The second most controversial car at the #LAAutoShow. #corvette #c8
      · 0 replies
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