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Those 90's Riv interiors look substantially better with the full-width wood treatment. Even going back to the 80s

You look at the 1995 5-series picture and *dont* see acres of plastic and cheap Casio keyboard buttons to go with the hard plastic cable operated manual hvac?

Yeah. Buick was trying to be the American Jag. I agree. And you clearly drove home the point. I love your choice of pics to compare and contrast! The Aurora and Oldsmobile was the sporty German/Japanese alternative. The Catera tried to right the wrong wheel drive approach to competing with the Germans when they introduced the 1990s STS. But this is where the Aurora comes in. The G Platform (Aurora and Riviera) and the K Platform (Deville/Seville/Eldorado) were derivatives of each other. Marketing for the Aurora, Riviera, Seville were all derivative of each other too. To be alternative German and Japanese sporty and luxury competitors. The Riviera's historic past was more closely attached to be a natural rival to a Jag, and that is where Buick's marketing was tuned to, true, but also, the Riviera, JUST the Riviera, was also looking to go younger DESPITE having larger fonts for the speedometer. Hence Audi. Audi saw a renaissance. Buick with this Riviera, also saw a way to rejuvenate itself trying to younger. And it helped that Oldsmobile did exactly that and sparked it off with the Aurora. The Riviera would ride that coat tail, the coupe platform mate of the Aurora. Cadillac would also get a THIRD try to entice yuppies from buying BMWs. The first was the Cimarron. The second try was the NorthStar STS, and the third try was the Catera. I mentioned the A4, because Audi too, was damned serious in dethroning the 3 Series. But maybe I should have said the A6. But the A6 was a sedan and the Riviera was a coupe. But the Aurora definitely was aimed at the Audi A6 market. Sure, the A4 was a sedan too, but the Catera was more in tune to do battle with the 3 Series than it was rto do battle with the A4. RWD. The A4 was FWD/AWD. Riviera was FWD. But yeah, everything in this class was a derivative of each other is what Im trying to say. Albeit not eloquently. It IS a good thing you dont charge by the word. LOL.

The upper end of Buick at the time was trying to be an American Jaguar in their styling... hamstrung entirely by the GM bean counters. It was Cadillac with their ill-conceived Catera that was to aim for the A4. They tried and failed... but that was Cadillac's problem, not Buick's. Also... A4 and Legend were fairly different segments. A4 was Catera's job, Legend was Aurora's job. When you consider that this would have been their benchmark, the full width wood, it makes a lot more sense why the dashboard of the last Riviera looks empty without the wood. And those woodkits look tacked on because they are... had they been from the factory, they would have looked better. But this is really hard to deny what the goal was... and this... Even the LeSabre got in on the fun...even down to similar wheel styles... And it goes both ways because look what Jaguar came up with style wise 4 years after the final Riviera debuted.... Now, I will fully concede that Buick was pretty restricted due to platform and powertrain constraints and also was making cars that were "American sized"... but when you consider that the LeSabre was also being shared with the Eighty-Eight and Bonneville, and the Park Ave was being shared with the Aurora, Deville, and Riviera.... I think Buick did a pretty darn good job from a styling perspective of trying to be an American Jaguar on a budget. You just don't get much closer than these without being in the same brand. Buick wasn't aiming for Audi/Acura buyers at all. GM wasn't even playing in that market from any brand outside of the Catera and Aurora.... possibly... maybe... the Intrigue if it hadn't been tuned to drive like a grandma car with severely overboosted steering. They got the exterior styling on it right for the Audi/Acura set, but the interior, powertrain, suspension, and steering were all wrong. CTS didn't show up until 2003 as the first serious attempt.

Love that Eldorado in Palm Springs pic. The XJ... something? is neat too.

It's the Roger Smith era again, albeit with a lower chance of disastrous results. With EVs, the car manufacturers are moving substantially closer to the I.T. model. Right now, I can buy a laptop from a whole bunch of manufacturers... Lenovo, HP, Dell are the big names you've all heard of that I would liken to GM, Ford, and Toyota. MSI, Gigabyte are less well known, I would liken them to Rivian and (new) Fisker. Acer is sort of like FCA in that they're made up of Packard Bell, Texas Instruments PCs, Commodore, Gateway, and E-machines. Samsung (Hyundai/Kia/Genesis) has been making some inroads into the laptop market with cool looking designs and some luxury offerings. Tesla is Apple with their proprietary connectors and rabid fanboys. So there's 11 laptop brands I mentioned, with hundreds, if not thousands of models between them. All with various features like different size screens, different styles of keyboards, different styles of charging connector, some can convert into a tablet, some have big graphics cards to play video games. One I'm looking at has an animated display on the outside of the lid... totally useless, but neat to look at. But at the end of the day, they have a processor from either Intel, AMD, or Apple. They have RAM from Samsung or Toshiba. The screens are almost exclusively Samsung, but LG has some business there too. The hard drive is usually Samsung or Toshiba, but Apple builds their own. Touchpads are usually by Synaptic. Apple has recently turned more proprietary in their setup, but they still do sell some Intel machines. No matter what you pick, there is an 78% chance it will have an Intel under the hood with the remaining 22% split between AMD and Apple. This is the way the auto industry will go... and notice how many times I mentioned Samsung above. If you read between the lines at GM's various releases over the last year, it's pretty clear they want to be the Samsung of the auto industry. Not only do they see themselves as a car builder, but with their huge investments into EV technology, they want to be one of the biggest component suppliers to the other manufacturers. Samsung's laptop business is relatively small, but they own somewhere around 75% of the laptop screen business. They are huge players in storage and ram, building some of the best performing parts out there. As much as I hate Samsung end-user products, their storage and ram are among the best. To relate this back to the 50s/60s, it like when the Hydramatic was the best transmission out there and it was used in Hudsons, Nashes, Ramblers, Kaiser-Frazers, Willys, Lincolns, and Rolls Royces. I fully believe that while they may not have looked at Samsung specifically, this model of being the leading supplier of EV components is their motivation.. and quite frankly.. a very sound business move.

You know trades happen all the time in sports, right? The idea is to benefit both parties, neither one is trying to get fleeced in the transaction but to both get pieces to help themselves.

That's good, but that's not really what I asked, though you sort of made my point for me. I was asking if having the Ford Engine + Transmission in a Sierra would bother you... I'm guessing not since you were shopping the Ford also. In the end, the comparable powertrains didn't matter to you. You had a choice of two 3-liter turbo-diesel 6-cylinders mated to 10-speed transmissions. You made your decision on which way to go based on paint color and wheel selection. You care a lot more about engines than even the above-average CR-V/Equinox buyer. Do you really think that it would come down to who made the electric motor in an EV? I could see it mattering to some Tesla Fanbois.. maybe.... but that's about it.

Reality is complex. Businesses make decisions for reasons. Reasons we aren't privy to. Next topic.

I like the exterior of those mid 1990s Rivieras. I do prefer the Aurora tho. I like the design of the Riviera interior. It took great inspiration from the original interior. I dont like the execution and materials chosen. (too plasticky and very very cheap looking) The Aurora's interior is much better executed. A peg or two above the Riviera's interior with slightly better materials. More refined and much more upscale in appearance and feel. Too bad GM had to beancount that interior. The original Riviera interior was exquisite. versus

Im certainly grateful

If GM doesn't 'need' Honda's engineering input, why solicit it? - - - - - Most of the industry itself, since... the beginning, looks at it more like, say; Major League Baseball. These companies are in competition with each other (duh). When the Mets & the Phillies meet up, the Mets don't say 'Hey; you're behind 9-2. Why not use our lead-off hitter - he's @ .403 right now! Then we can have a higher aggregate game score... you just have to pay us .05% of his salary per at-bat!' If it's legit that 'Ultium represents a milestone achievement in electrification', then let the chips fall where they may, and if that includes honda falling 'so far behind' : ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. GM 'doesn't need' honda and doesn't own honda anything. That would include whatever minor 'economies of scale' such partnership may generate (offset by every lost sale to an Ultium honda/acura); GM doesn't need it. GM made $10 billion in net profit in a rough year last year, and they claim they'll have 30 BE models on sale 30 months from now. That'd put GM near the leading edge of BE volume (by model count).

It isn't as good as an E-class of the era, W124 or W210, but was still better built than a Buick and it had real wood trim, not plastic wood like a 90s Park Ave. I am not saying the 1995 5-series was anything great, the E39 made improvements all around, but Cadillac, Lincoln and Lexus all abandoned what they used to do to chase the E39, the G35 arrived to battle the 3-series. That justified the BMW as the benchmark car and in part caused the market shift. And then they all gave up and went on to make front wheel drive crossovers and "American Luxury" basically died in the process, except in the Escalade which is big and plush and tacky/gawdy, in the vein of a 60-70s Cadillac and that is the only American luxury car that sells.

I know you’re directing your question at @David but here’s my take. I’m not fearful of the 2.7T, but I’m not buying one either. There is just more durability in a V6 or V8 of similar output. Generally though, larger diameter turbos spin slower and are less oil hungry. A larger turbo on a small engine can produce a lot of boost, but it would feel laggy. There are sweet spots for any displacement engine. Little engines like this new 3 cylinder that are pushing huge hp/liter numbers are likely running smallish turbos close to max capacity. That’s going to need very good oil. GMs 2.7T is likely in that same boat. In an effort to make it a 5.3 replacement they’re running a lot of boost. Dollars to Donuts the average 5.3 will outlast the average 2.7T even with identical maintenance schedules simply because the turbo is harder on the oil. I’m not going to be able to avoid turbos going forward in any ICE vehicle I might buy, but I’m very on top of keeping my oil changed, so I’ll be okay.

No I wont tell you. As I really cant stand trucks and SUVs. ESPECIALLY EV ones... Just joking. Here goes And 2 for the price of 1 Good deal I must say so myself!

Like the Looks of the Lucid over the others, but being cars, I really could care less. Let me know when they do this with the EV trucks and SUVs.

I guess the point I was trying to make (and failed) was that these are all different classes... or at least different niches. I know @balthazar has started agreeing with @smk4565 lately in that two different cars in the same price bracket compete directly with each other even if they have vastly different purposes.... so he'd likely agree with you that this: Was intended to compete with this: Just because they were both in the mid-$30k range. But even back in the early 90s, there were two very distinct classes of luxury cars. There was the big, floaty, posh stuff that I like.... this would include stuff like the Seville/Deville, Park Ave, XJ, S-Class/E-Class, and Lexus ES/GS/LS. This is where the woodgrain would be found. And then there would be the stark, sports oriented luxury cars like the 3/5/7 Series, the Integra/Vigor/Legend, Infiniti J/M/Q. I'm loathe to include the A4 here because all I see is a B-series Passat.... but I guess I have to... and the A6 to go with it. Somehow... this 1995 5-series... manual rotary dials and all... became the benchmark of a luxury car when Buick not only was doing duel-zone automatic climate control, but had single zone automatic climate control for a decade and even had touch screens. Cadillac had been doing automatic digital climate as early as 1980... but here we are looking at a 1995 BMW with cable operated dials that is somehow superior. To my mind, these are distinct classes of luxury car... one is Luxury the other was once called Luxury Sport (remember the time 10-15 years ago where EVERY sedan was a luxury sport sedan?... even ones that had no business trying to claim it?). Unfortunately, the purist luxury car segment is mostly gone except for the extreme ends of the S-class line and, oddly, the G90. The Aurora was probably GM's best initial effort at going after the new luxury-sport imports. Yes it was larger than a Legend or ES, but it was every bit as luxury as those and wore the new minimalist styling well. Plus you got a 250 hp / 260 lb-ft V8 instead of a mediocre 188 hp from the ES or 200 hp from the Legend. Of course because it was a $31k car the rags compared it to the 328 and C-class even though it was so much more car than them.

I'd take the E39 M5. My favorite era of BMWs. The modern appliances are faster but so dull and soulless.

The E-bodies in '66-67 (Riv, Toro, and '67 Eldo) were a high point for GM design, IMO...beautifully styled cars. IIRC, the photo of the gold Eldo in Palm Springs is a photo from an article in Motor Trend Classic about 15 years ago (short-lived premium magazine from Motor Trend). Love the Citroen SM, Jag, and Continental also. The SM is one of my favorite '70s European cars.

I didn't "ignore" the reasons GM is doing this, surreal; I talked on both 'economies of scale / capital' and 'engineers co-operating' in my posts above. If anyone has any other motive reasons, feel free to expound. I'm sure they did find some profit to be made off that venture. Needless to say... GM has pursued numerous ventures with good intentions and undoubtedly compelling figures that have up-ended in short order. My question still stands about the longer-term / broad picture of handing your proprietary 'milestone' BE hardware over to the competition (who has none such of their own). But when I read GM's recent Corporate PR from Barra, I'm less & less convinced she / GM view themselves as being in competition anymore, and that instead, all the OEMs are going to gather around the (digital, of course) campfire and hold hands, as one conscious entity under the stars. Whatever - just ignore my question then if too annoying.

I’m sure the bean counters at GM sharpened their pencils enough to figure out how to make a profit off of Ultium platform sales to other manufacturers. If they can do it for transmissions, they can do it for batteries. And economies of scale are one of the most important things in EV land right now. Look how long it took Tesla, and at such volume, before they started turning profits without selling carbon credits to FCA. GM selling 200,000 Ultium packs to Honda will make the Ultium pack cheaper for GM to produce for its own vehicles. Luckily we don’t charge by the word here at C&G.

Good grief @balthazar. You spent all those words just to ignore the actual reasons why they are doing this in the first place. You even included an apples to oranges baseball team comparison. Don’t know what the deal is with you making phantom issues out of this but history has shown this has been part of the business since day one and it is not going to diminish GMs brand but doing this. It’s really that simple.

^ It wasn't a 'doom' scenario then, however; once Edsel Ford passed and Ol' Henry took the tiller again ('43), it was clear he was past his prime / ability to doing so. He retired a 2nd time in Sept of '45, so he wasn't heading up the company long that 2nd time.

Henry Ford passed away today, 75 years ago, in 1947.

Sounds like David is, ironically, afraid of new technology and assumes it will fail.

Yep, still there..saw the Garden of the Gods balanced rock many times when I lived about a mile from the park from '97-02...

Colorado Springs, CO ~

I think there is a lot of chicken-littleing in this thread. The sky is not falling. This is ultium platform sharing, but not the body in white. You're not going to see CR-V shaped Equinoxes. It will be all the dirty bits underneath. Note how similar the CR-V, Equinox, and Terrain are today: Equinox - 1.5T with 170 hp and 203 lb-ft, 6-speed automatic Terrain - 1.5T with 170 hp and 203 lb-ft, 9-speed automatic CR-V - 1.5T with 190 hp and 179 lb-ft, CVT None of those are drastically different to even the above average consumer who would bother to check the specs. In this segment, they care more about seat comfort, what the stereo sounds like, and how much space there is in the hatch. Each one has their pluses and minuses: + Equinox and Terrain for having a good bit more torque - Equinox and Terrain for having the tendency to burn up their cylinder heads + CR-V for having more horsepower - CR-V for having a CVT (though probably one of the best CVTs available) + Terrain for having a 9-speed auto - Equinox for having a 6-speed auto - Terrain for having a $30k base price + CR-V and Equinox for having a ~$26k base price All this announcement does is say that GM and Honda will share the motive power. Do you really care if the electric motor and battery comes from Honda or GM? A battery is a battery and an electric motor is an electric motor. GM is ahead of Honda on both of these, so it is wise for Honda to partner with someone rather than spend R&D money on developing battery technology. @balthazar are you upset that your Sierra has a Ford developed transmission in it? Do you think it would have changed your purchase decision if it was the 3.0 Ford Powerstroke diesel in there instead of the Duramax? If not, why not? At least Mrs. Balth's Malibu has a GM transmission in it... the same one the Escape uses, albeit with one more gear.

I think body style/vehicle type and size is where you start, then price point for comparisons. The Honda Accord and E-class are the same size, but not competitors due to price. I wouldn’t say the A4 and Riviera were competition as one is 2 door and they almost 2 feet in length apart. As far as the BMW goes, it was built with quality where as the Riviera for example had acres of GM plastic in it. And the BMW could handle. In actuality, it is Cadillac, Infiniti, Lexus, Jaguar and maybe some others that made BMW and Mercedes the bench mark. Mercedes and BMW haven’t really changed in 40 years other than it is SUVs instead of sedans and sedans instead of coupes. It is cars like the Gen 1 CTS, Lincoln LS, Infiniti G37, Lexus GS300, etc that made BMW the benchmark because they were telling consumers a BMW-like car is what luxury is, and now all those cars are gone because people just kept buying BMWs.

Compared to this sea of monotone GM plastic, the BMW was better, although I am sure a 5-series cost more.