LosAngeles

Might wanna un-pin this article. The talk has died down. In any event.... To comment on EOS talk I saw upthread, hardtop converrtibles disgust me in general. They're simply not very handsome. And then there's this: Disgusting, isn't it? Folks don't need the cars they usually buy. As many Americans only commute to and from work, plus drive three kids around at the most, they're easily all set with a compact or intermediate. Not many do big hauling or other contracting work to need pickups (especially since the housing market has killed big construction), and the $4 gas I keep mentioning in posts (already a reality in some parts of SoCal) should get these wannabe high rollers out of these damn SUVs. This crummy economy in general means every manufacturer will struggle to sell new cars, but there should be a change of the culture around the corner as a result. Those of you alive back in the 70s may have some insight that could help us out now.

The M1, eh? LOL.

The option I would want is for it to be a HATCH. Surely the A3 has prioven that Americans aren't scared of hatchbacks that much.

So the Fiat Group has fallen this far off, eh? And we say the British car industry is in the toilet. Fiat IS Italy...more so than the exotics will ever be.

If only they dared to actually pull the trigger and build a family of models. A coupe/sedan/wagon would be a nice standard otus. Of course in this world, what's good with bang for the gallon?

Not every brand, but there were many greats in the bunch.

I find the two weirdly cool. But the French are all disinterested in the U.S., so we'll never see them

570Z? That's cool but it's been done a million times. How about taking a Cadillac 500 and making a 820Z? Such fanboys. We really want engines that big when they're screaming to give us gas at $4 a gallon. Not to mention I find it funny that when Americans dream up these garish displacements, they always think no further than V-8s. Why not V-12s or, hell, V-16s? It would be nice if the 400Z meant a 4-liter V-8 instead of a huge V-6. But surely Nissan wouldn't want to screw up perceptions of the GT-R (even though I think the GT-R draws a different kind of fanboy that likes the idea of a six with twin blowguns on it much more--this means they can fire open that stuck-together HKS or Trust catalog and get more lotion)

It blossomed into that, if you ask me. I'm well aware many folks don't have a glowing opinion of Toyota, so I made the poll to see exactly why, and of course included a dissenting opinion, "I don't have a problem with Toyota at all," because I know many here don't have issue with Toyota. This site is registered to and read by not only diehard General fans, but Ford freaks, Honda heads, Chrysler crazies, and yessir, even folks who historically love Toyotas. Having an issue with Toyota doesn't mean you dislike them, the Japanese, etc. Though some have expressed that as well, and hey, at least they admitted it. Minds may not be changed here, but at least the round table was here to speak in specifics at. Explorers disgust me, LOL... Now, substitute Edge for Explorer.....we'd have something then.

I personally think Vauxhall has a slightly different personality....it's not whole-hog Adam Opel with a griffin badge. They wouldn't have bothered with the Monaro or the VXR8 if that were the case. And the Astra nameplate CAME from Vauxhall.

It may not go down like that in the UK, but here, it's been documented often, beyond C&G posts, and not by folks that simply have an ax to grind with Toyota Motor Sales.

That term is an oxymoron if ever there was one. Why not just call them intermediate vans?

The C-pillar extension makes it far sexier. Shoudl be standard (but removable, in order to throw on shells)

And more to the point, too many on here worship at the altar of these body-on-frame, live axle retro-sleds, as if they never emerged from 1969 or 1977, and don't feel that GM or other Americna brands should have either. Bread and butter cars are generally treated like pieces of s--t (which is why they don't last as long as more often-pampered performance cars)...they just don't rust as severely in this town

We didn't get one for the 94-99 is my point. And that was at a time when interest in higher-performance sports coupes was booming. Toyota made it a point to hustle backwards and it backfired, so they tried to rectify that with the far more aggressive 2000 Celica that came afterward.

The L-series six is such a monster in its own right that throwing in some smallblock or 302 Windsor is a sacrilege. If any swap, I'm an advocate of "keep it in the family." Plenty of Nissan-brand engines that can make an old Z sing. When old Volvos get 302 (or 351) Windsors, that's not as bad to me, since Ford owns Volvo now. ETN: As far as all this talk of E-type inspiration, surely that was by way of the Toyota 2000GT:

I would never have guessed, but I don't put it past happening. If you feel like an E-Class could be had for the same price as a Scorpio or Carlton, just because it's Mercedes, of course you'll go in that direction. Did Lexus or Cadillac do the same thing?

I guess that explains what happened to the Omega, Scorpio, Safrane, and Diamante. Surely gas prices (though historically high anyway) didn't help. But why is the Peugeot 607 still around? And the Camry is basically the inoffensive car built for mom to drive to work after dropping the kids off at school, and that's the type of person who eats that car up here.

So not one thing in life has EVER grown on you?

Stiffening a suspension isn't "heavily modifying" the chassis. The VB Commodore was essentially a straightforward rebadged Opel Commodore (an Opel Rekord with the Senator's nose) with a different range of engines. Many cars in production get suspension tweaks or upgrades for different markets. The VT Commodore models onward - which were derived from the Omega - were heavily modified chassis by virtue of the fact they were structurally widened and practically re-engineered. I can't imagine this part being an exaggeration: "When driven at speed over harsh Australian roads, Holden quickly realised that the Rekord would effectively break in half. This forced Holden to rework the entire car for local conditions. Such a task blew development costs beyond expectations to AU$110 million" And as far as carlton vs. M5, different road tests can obviously yield different results. A favorite issue of Motor Trend, September 1991, saw the Carlton (Omega) as quicker and faster than both the M5 and 500E.

I'm just clowning around. It's nice to see a post I start have passion within. S'funny, could have sworn Pontiac Custom-S was American. Actually, the Commodore chassis was heavily modified from Rekord, Senator, and Omega respectively. The difference is clear. Holden had to beef up the suspension for Australian conditions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holden_VB_Commodore

Do you two care to get a room? LOL

Well, they do look pretty slight for intermediates at many angles (esp. the Avenger)...surely their Lancer roots don't help. Self-hating? While you could possibly be addressing something else, if you're addressing our economy, it's one that isn't protectionist or homogeneous. It's been a competitive one as long as all of us have been alive. Consumers get with what they perceive as the winning products and services. The Great American iPod commands everyone's desires, with anyone that could possibly compete from any other country not having a prayer (not to mention Walkmen died in the process with no iPod killing replacement in sight) No doubt Japan was dumping something fierce for quite a while, however.... The Xbox line is taking back the video game industry the U.S. once led the charge in before the crash of '83. The computers in most homes and briefcases? American brands. Unless Sony VAIO has this egregious amount of market share I was unaware of. I think it's the fact that cars kind of inspire a politicism and religiosity in opinions. Like the suits in The Tubes are really listening to a bunch of fanboys on a message board. Bring the kids down to my bridge dealership, let's make a deal. And don't shoot the messenger for bringing the thread to see why all these Toyota-haters have this passion against them. I hear it so much here, I simply wanted to see where it skewed. All the political crap aside, for me, they're simply not making any cars that scream "undeniable" for my money....too many non-Toyota makes win each segment they play in on my list. However, I do have to concur that many folks here have opinions that could reek of racism. Imagine if Toyota (or someone else as a frontrunner) was, say, British. Or German (I never hear many complaints on this board about BMW or Volkswagen, whereas I've seen both gone in on plenty of times elsewhere). Though it can be said that the hate for Chrysler is pretty irrational also. Pretty much. Surely a few of you in here run businesses, part of which you had shipped off to India. Lest we also forget complaints about illegal immigrants (usually the Latino ones....hmmm) picking the fruits and vegetables, packing the pigs and cows, and cleaning our hotels. All of which would cost more if citizens did them, because if we don't all think we're supposed to be doctors, lawyers, actors, and rock stars, rendering the jobs that make this economy go beneath us; we'd be wanting to get paid a king's ransom for them. This particular model never saw the light of day in the U.S. All we got was some wimpy 145-horse frontie frogmobile. I'm leaving this one alone beyond saying that both you and OC sound like you guys don't get around much. Yeah, we're in the land of crummy spec-vehicle NASCAR. I wish touring and rally racing would have taken off here.

While I get the political statement to be made while buying a car (because I also think American cars need to fight back for a greater piece of the road again)....elsewhere, I think differently... I can't think of a single Kodak I'd want over a Minolta or Nikon. I'm sure folks aren't screaming to stay from Japanese brands when looking for a plasma or LCD TV. Sharp, Panasonic, Sony, et al, still do their numbers.... The iPod and the cell phone may have changed the culture quite significantly, but Japan isn't leaving American lives anytime soon...

Lesses here: G-body Monte Carlo was still around. IROC-Z Trans Am GTA Fiero GT LeSabre T-Type debut of the Beretta Cutlass Supreme Omni GLH A2 GTI/Jetta GLI Scirocco Supra MR2 Celica All-Trac (GT-Four in the rest of the world) Corolla GT-S Corolla FX16 RX-7 MX-6 323 GTX CRX Civic Si Prelude quite cool Accord fastback Legend Integra Mustang Thunderbird Turbo Coupe Taurus SHO Escort GT 300CE M3 6-series 5-series Starion/Conquest 300ZX Sterling all those off the top of the head. Plus a ton of great '89s debuted that fall. So I'd say I disagree. The 88 calendar year had much enjoyable machinery (some even still cool by today's standards)