oldshurst442

As dangerous as any other car being driven fast, recklessly and apparently high on drugs. https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a32067039/gemballa-mirage-gt-wrecked-in-manhattan/

Alot Whether you like it or not. According to YOUR definition of luxury. High end trims of pick-up trucks are luxury... If you dont agree with that, then E Class Mercedes is NOT luxury either... Pick your pill and stop the bullshyte!

Sure... You seem to do it all the time... What is a base E Class anyway? In Greece...its a taxi cab... You cant use the 100 000 dollar AMG on me...why? ALL YOUR WORDS... IN ESSENCE...YOU ARE ARGUING WITH.... YOURSELF

Yes we have. We've seen worse. A whole lot worse. And there are people still alive and still remember those bad bad times... We are a weak society as compared to prior generations... The bombs were not dropped and exploded on North American turf, but the effects of the war on the economy side of things affected North Americans. RATIONS And Im not even talking about Europe and how Europe was devastated by bombs and lack of food and disease on the streets along with dead bodies from war and internal in fighting and sabotaging and back stabbing and soldiers murdering innocent civilians and the list goes on and on and on. Not to mention self isolation when the bombs hit and Europeans prayed it was not their house exploding Im talking about America. The war effort in America had a severe economic impact. Detroit produced war machines. Not cars for about 3 years. It wasnt the boys who made them. It was the girls. The boys were off to war. The girls, the married ones, prayed that they didnt get a certain letter from Uncle Sam..... Many boys came back home in body bags... The only thing is, there was no self isolation in America during WW2 as there was in Japan, Europe and in today's situation. But there was no internet and no TV either back then...no video games. Some places in America barely had electricity and lights...even in 1942... Not everybody had a job prior to 1939 either(start of WW2 for everybody else other than the US) so buying consumer products was not a thing...like we do today....even in a Covid19 lockdown. We could still go to Wallmart and buy a Playstation 4, or workout equipment because our favorite gym is closed... We could still order take-out. That kind of consumerism was not even dreamt of back in 1939... Hell...even after the war in 1945...that concept wasnt even conceived. Drive thrus though in the 1950s? maybe? We also have credit today...unless of course those of us who over consume and are maxed out from buying too many Starbucks coffees and useless contraptions... But even then... the US household does have on average 3-4 TVs and at least 2 computers and 2 smart phones at their disposal during this crisis with unlimited internet... We also have 2-3 cars in our Average Joe homes... Jobs? Yeah...those will be coming back after all this. Businesses will re-open. Those that went away...will spawn new businesses. After all...American consumerism is a way of life. That wont go away... And to those that will have a hard time getting back on their feet BECAUSE of overspending in the past... HOPEFULLY THIS will RESET THEIR mindset and we could get back to a much more simpler time and material objects are not coveted as much as we coveted them prior to this pandemic. Stay safe. Lets be careful on how we interact with our immediate environment and hopefully their is a solution around the corner soon. But we have faced much much tougher economic times than this. Human Mortality is always grim, so I wont downplay anything regarding that. THAT would be inhumane. IN OTHER WORDS: We also have 2-3 cars in our Average Joe homes... CASH FOR CLUNKERS IS NOT ALL THAT IMPORTANT RIGHT ABOUT NOW... To get the industry rolling again? In another thread...I was a major contributor in arguing for and against what constitutes a luxury vehicle... Well...all that is NOT IMPORTANT... ALL auto manufactures may now need to go back into time and re-introduce back to basics automobiles... Honda CVCCs, BMW ISETTAs, Ford Model Ts... Forget about Longhorn Laramies and AMG E Classes for the moment after this crisis is done with...and then maybe cash for clunkers could work out... 50 000 dollar pickup trucks with all the frills, bells and whistles is totally not what is important and needed. All the ApplePlay connectivity to tell us where to spend our money is not what is important and needed. The 20 inch rims and Brembo crossdrilled ceramic brakes are not what is important and needed... For our transportational needs going forward after this Coronavirus COVID19 thing gets resolved....

Because you know...you got yourself in a pickle... To boot... 'twas SMK that started this nonsense praising German shyteboxes... And the Longhorn Laramie is a huge, heavy, offroading isolation chamber...JUST like the old style luxo barges of yore were...except now they ride taller and got 4 wheel drive. And some got performance chops too...go anywhere performance chops.

Why? Because Mercedes said the AMG is a luxury vehicle? Why is it a luxury vehicle? Price? You already established in your mind that price got NOTHING to do with it... But Ill humour you. Starts at $108 000 F150 Shelby SuperSnake Starts at $95 000 for 400 HP and $102 000 for 770 HP Performance? The Supersnake and Raptor do things that an AMG E Class wont do and vice versa...but all 3 are performance machines. You gonna pick and choose what performance criteria is luxury and what is not? Technology? What automotive tech is available in the Mercedes is also available in the F150. Fit and finish? Quality of the leather? What about towing capacity and what you could haul? Why isnt THAT a luxury? Because when discussing with biased view points...one will always find a way to dismiss another view point when it does not match their fondness and dislike for certain vehicles...

Yeah...you find it hilarious that a pickup truck is a luxury vehicle. I find it hilarious that a taxi cab in Greece is a luxury vehicle States side...

I say base E Class and base GLC...but you yourself dont equate expensive price tags to luxury so an AMG E Class is also not luxury BECAUSE the E Class is utilitarian in some markets outside the US...just like how pickup trucks ARE utilitarian in the US market. In other parts of the world thoughl ike in Russia and in Dubai...if a Russian oligarch or an oil sheik baron decide to export a Kings Ranch F150...its luxury...) (you could try to counter all you want...the sad reality is that Mercedes went down market in the US and THAT is what is causing SMK all this pain) Ford, Dodge and GM went upmarket for their trucks...meeting up at the doorstep of Mercedes' downmarket path... Dont fault Detroit for that mess... Dont make excuses for Mercedes for that mess...

Yup... And you missed the point that Mercedes vehicles that have the SAME EXACT price tags as those high fallutin' pickup trucks..dont equate to luxury vehicles either... And THAT is the point... Example That E Class...is not a luxury vehicle... Therefore... Not a luxury vehicle But wait...there is more You both have to decide what argument you want to stick to... Define what is luxury first...and then come and discuss it with me. You will find that whatever definition you choose, it does not bode well for Mercedes luxury perception vis-a-vis high priced pickup trucks and Mercedes Benz vehicles below the S Class... I repeat... Price to price interior to interior engine choice to engine choice fit and finish to fit and finish tech to tech Mercedes base GLC and base E Class are no more luxury than top trimmed pickup trucks. Or... If you want to play the hypocrite game. Mercedes base GLC and E Class are luxury...but so are the top trimmed pickup trucks. You cant have it both ways.

Non sequitur? Why? Because trucks are now considered to be luxury vehicles rather than status quo sedans? News Flash: Its been an SUV and Truck world ever since OJ was running from the cops at 5 mph waaaay back when Eurodance was just hitting the dance clubs in NYC and Montreal. Because plebeian brands are hitting luxury price tags? Well... luxury brands are hitting plebeian price tags...it goes both ways you know... It may be a Bizarro world in 2020...but it dont change the fact that pickup trucks from mainstream brands are in reality luxury vehicles and luxury brands are producing and selling mainstream level vehicles. Please dont be hypocritical and say a GLC or worse...a G wagon... is a luxury truck JUST because it wears a luxury brand logo on the hood, and dismiss a GMC Sierra Denali or Ford Kings Ranch truck JUST because it dawns a utilitarian and mainstream badge... Because if you say a GLC is luxury and deny a Denali...your thought process is non-sequitur. Your logic does not follow... And the fact that a 2019 E Class is a mainstream taxi car in other parts of the world does you no favours with this non-sequitur rebuttal... And yes...18 wheelers are expensive...but quite luxurious too...if equipped that way. Plus...these modern 18 wheelers got technology that rivals the best of the automotive world. Everything that defines...luxury. Price to price interior to interior engine choice to engine choice fit and finish to fit and finish tech to tech Base E Class/base GLC or top of the line GLA versus high priced Detroit pickup trucks...very much indeed is apples to apples and very much sequitur as it follows a very logical path. One that you or SMK dont wanna admit to...but yeah...

It does not bode well for Mercedes' luxury plans when plebeian branded, work oriented utilitarian pick-up trucks rival transaction prices and sales figures with those of Mercedes so-called luxury vehicles... Maybe because... Anything below the S Class in the Mercedes line-up is not luxury? Or... Is it that Lonhorn Laramies, King Ranches and Denalis ARE luxury? Tough pill to swallow. Which reality do you wanna follow? Any which way you cut it...its no bueno for Mercedes Benz.

Actually...same applies to Mercedes. How many low level GLAs and CLAs and crappy 4 cylinder C Classes does Mercedes roll out and favorable priced lease queen E Classes and GLCs vis a vis the higher priced ones? I bet you...Dodge and Ford and GMC and Chevy sell MORE 50 000 dollar price tagged trucks than Mercedes does in that same 50 000 dollar range. Mercedes has sold 320 000-380 000 units in the US the last 5 years. The GLC and the C Class are the top cars that sell in the US. 60 000 units per year for the C Class and 70 000 for the GLC That totals 130 000 units. About half. 45 000 E classes, 20 000 GLAs, 15 000 CLA. That is another 70 000 units 200 000 units so far. Add another 50 000 GLEs and another 15 000 S Classes and we are at 265 000. The rest comprises of 40 000 vans, 7 000 G Class SUVs, 4 000 GTs, 1 500 SLs, 1 500 SLCs and we are at the 315 000 units level https://www.daimler.com/investors/reports-news/financial-news/20200104-mbusa-sales-dec.html Numbers are good enough... 60 000 C Classes... starts at 42 000 70 000 GLCs starts at 52 000 I doubt that the GLC goes above 60 000 dollars. Lease queen. I doubt the C Class goes above 45 000 dollars. Lease queen also. That makes an avg trans price of 52 000... for 130 00 units GLE starts at 55 000 E Class starts at 54 000 avg trans price Id say 60 000 dollars. for another 100 000 cars. We bump up that avg trans price $55 000 for 230 000 units. CLA and GLA Id say avg trans prices at 45 000. It wont move the needle as that only makes up for 35 000 units. Avg trans prices for M-B in the US according to MY logic is 55 000 for a measly 260 000 - 280 000 units... https://www.coxautoinc.com/market-insights/average-new-vehicle-transaction-prices-up-3-5-year-over-year-in-january/ That link says that M-B ATP is at 58 000-59 000 dollars. Im gonna say that my analysis is accurate because in my analysis I am not including 100 000 dollar S Class sales...even at only 15 000 units... Ford sells 900 000 F150s and its variants Dodge sells close too 700 000 Rams and its variants. Maybe more now... GM sells 600 000 Chevy Silverados and another 250 000 Sierras. https://gmauthority.com/blog/2018/10/the-average-pickup-truck-price-is-closing-in-on-50000/ In 2018...GM said that the ATP on its trucks in 2018 is closing in on 50 000 dollars... The Silverado STARTS at 29 000... GM sells 850 000 trucks... Without me doing any more math...Im dizzy.... Im going to safely say that yes...Ford, GM, Dodge sell MORE 50 000 dollar trucks than Mercedes does 50 000 dollar vehicles...as I think GM, Ford and Dodge OBLITERATES the 280 000 unit mark with expensive as phoque Longhorns, King Ranches and Silverado HD/Denalis...

Guess at what price the GLA starts at? Its HIGHER than the base pick-up trucks. But...you just shot yourself in the foot... E Class is 54 000...Longhorn is 45 000... Longhorn Laramie is nicer inside than a base E Class... Therefore any vehicle from Mercedes BELOW an S Class is NOT Luxury... And THAT is according to YOUR argument and point of view.

Id say those days are over. Cadillac did that very same thing and it hasnt worked... Mercedes sells waaaay to many low level, low priced cars in North America that folks will not remember those high line cars that defined Mercedes Benz in the 1990s. And even then, in '90s, Mercedes also peddled waaaaay too many, low level cars in North America ... One could argue this one...but it was not very luxurious... It sold...BECAUSE it wasnt that expensive to buy. And at the start of the SUV/CUV craze...And this is when Mercedes was riding high on its so called luxury image. But not very luxurious... (look at those ugly grey plastic bumpers...) If Cadillac gets shat on for the 1st gen Escalade (nd for some hardcore GM haters for the 2nd gen) and GM gets shat on for the Hummer H1 and H2 for shoddy builds...then M-B should get shyte for that crap as well...

It did work. Chevy canceled the Avalanche. Not Cadillac. Chevy deemed the Avalanche too costly to produce...at a time when GM was going bankrupt. Let me remind you that the Avalanche and the Cadillac EXT was an SUV though...so your point is null and void... The Blackwood was just a poor attempt...for a Lincoln. But...Ford F150 higher trimmed packages that rival Mercedes E Class price tags are selling like hot cakes ever since the Blackwood was introduced and especially when it went away...and those F150s were soooooo much better at doing luxury than the Blackwood itself... So...like usual...you are going round and round in a circle saying nothing and accomplishing just as much. PS: Dodge Ram high priced and high trimmed pick-up trucks are also a hot commodity. I bet you Dodge sells more 50 000-70 000 dollar trucks than Mercedes Benz does SUVs/CUVs and sedans COMBINED It dont matter if you dont think pick-up trucks are not luxury vehicles. But what does it say about your Mercedes, a so called luxury brand...gets out sold by work oriented trucks with price tags that rival so called luxury vehicles by said luxury brand? Lowly Fords, Dodges and GMCs outsell Mercedes Benz's so called luxury vehicles... Your argument is soooooo outta whack...you yourself do not know what to say next... 1. Price is your argument... realizes that pick-up trucks are expensive as hell 2. Proceeds to say that price is not a factor. Performance is. 3. Realizes that pick-up trucks are quite capable in some areas as sporty cars but do other performance things that sports cars could never and will be able to do!!! 4. Proceeds to say trucks are utilitarian. 5. Proved that Mercedes Benz so called luxury car even in 2019 is utilitarian... 6. Proceeds to try to sway the bar that luxury trucks have failed....yet...does not realize that his first attempt to dismiss was that pick-up trucks are sold with luxury price tags...but not luxury...yet folk with money buy plebeian branded pickup trucks with Mercedes Benz price tags...realizes that that is not a good thing for Mercedes luxury perception... 7. Round and Round we go on the Merry Go Round... What is luxury? This? Or this?

Ahem... Yes I know...a couple of Astros and a Savannah...

Not happy with that definition. Id further define that to: The E Class after 2005 is 1950s and 1960s Oldsmobile/Buick luxury as even in the 1990s, the E Class was a Chevrolet Caprice equivalent in the Euro market. From cop car duty to taxi service. The C Class eventually took its place and that happened sometime in the 2000s. Id even peg the current E Class down to late 1950s Pontiac Bonneville levels. Even to Impala SS levels...So no...I dont think the E Class is all that luxurious... The C Class and equivalent before the mid 2000s was a compact econobox. The S Class and its predecessors were always luxo barges. But...from after the war and up until the late 1990s, the interiors were horrid. Especially up until the 1970s. Pre WW1 and WW2 Mercedes Benz cars were pure luxury. Nobody could deny that. After the WW2, Mercedes Benz had to build cars for the masses in war torn Europe in their home turf of Europe. Poverty and rationing was a way of life in Europe from 1945-1980. ESPECIALLY from 1945-1975. What they exported to the US and to oil rich Middle eastern countries after WW2, were the the efforts of luxury. "Efforts" is the key word here as there was no monies for R&D to be state of the art and for quality control. Sure, the 1950s Gullwing was a techno tour de force. But that car lasted 3-4 years as a supercar for the day. Another 20 years went by before Mercedes engineered another car for the market that was state of the art for the day. The late 1960s S Class predecessor, the 600 Pullman. And even then, no match for what Detroit was pumping out at the time. That car had a high high high price tag only to try to get people with money in the US to look at it. In reality, what SMK says about other car companies needing discounts to compete with Mercedes Benz cars today...well what he says is true for Mercedes and that car... Very few folk bought it. OK...Dictators bought it. Only because it wasnt their money they were wasting... They just wanted to flaunt and to lavishly spend...so they saw a car with a huge price tag and just bought it. Irony is that those people that were suppressed and oppressed by those dictators that drove the 600 Pullman always looked down on American cars and their excessiveness and the American way of life. Anyway...that is for another discussion on another day... The W123 Mercedes was built like a tank...for work and utility duties...for it being a workhorse. Yeah...kinda like pick-up trucks and that B-Body Chevrolet I posted... What R&D monies were available after WW2, it was all monies subsidized by the US and UK governments to rebuild West Germany...to shove it to those Commies. You know...Ich Bin Ein Berliner and the like...Cold War chess games. The ONLY reason why Mercedes, VW, and BMW exist today...IS because the US and the UK governments sunk money into West Germany... Nope. Nope its not.

Je me souviens... Therefore...I will never agree why anything below an S Class is deemed luxury from Mercedes Benz.

Right... Your argument flip flops between Silverado...a Chevrolet and then switch to Denali... Is this luxury? Starts at 50 000 or so... So does a Denali. Like I said you flip flop... And then you try to denounce a Denali... But a 54 000 dollar E Class interior is an equal to the Denali's... And THAT version gets no supercruise or any other luxury tech either...plus a V6. The Denali is a 420 or so horsepower V8... You know...YOUR kind of definition of luxury...V8... Oh...and you mentioned work and utility... And all these NEVER sold in numbers to be bragged out about... Like I said... J.R. types from the soap opera Dallas all had Stepford wives and these are the cars they bought for them to silence them because they were cheating on them... You know...Lexus sold a half-a-million dollar car not too long ago... There are STILL unsold examples of it... Your little word pollution discussion...of which I got a headache from...means very little...

Just price. I dont have the patience or strength to discuss with him that aspect. Ive done so, like you, in the past, discuss this with him... Im kinda burnt out with this ad nauseam discussion with him. That is why I had a trolly response to him in that post.

FALSE. Mercedes has a model or two in the 1980s that was above Cadillac in the 1980s...but in the 1970s...NADA. Cadillac was starting to fall from grace...sure...but even Oldsmobile was on a higher level than Mercedes was. Mercedes threw some high priced stuff our way in the 1970s, and 'twas mostly rich Stepford wives that bought them. Seemingly California Stepford wives. Im thinking it was a way for rich pricks to shut them up while they were cheating on them with younger versions of their trophy wives... I hardly think that qualifies as glamorous... Keep mind that those rich pricks all drove Cadillacs and Lincolns... Then the yuppies took over in the 1980s and wanted to show those old rich pricks who is in control of Wallstreet and THAT is how Bimmers and Mercedes cars got a foothold on the luxury side of things in the US... Rest assured though, those younger chicks that cheated with those old rich pricks in the 1970s...all married guys that drove Lexuses in the 1980s and 1990s. But dont forget...those yuppies that drove those Bimmers and Mercedes cars in the 1980s and 1990s...all drive Teslas now...

And I noticed you IGNORED 0-60 times of the Raptor and the Shelby. Raptor is a tick above 5 seconds... BUT... Let me know when a G80 could do this (for the SECOND time) Oh...the Raptor could just flat out GO THROUGH the NURBURGRING by actually GOING THROUGH the twists and turns...

word pollution. But...Ill humour you. This is what pick-up trucks do...what they are meant to do...with 420 HP and 460 ft/lbs are meant to do....there are base V6 engines in these...and Ford has preferred to go 400 HP with turbo V6...but... Let me know when a G80 or a Caddy CT5V can do this or this Or even this... 0-60 and Nurburgring times are less relevant in times like these...me thinks... Screw your head on straight dude. Discuss stuff more like an adult and less like a teenager, please.

That is what was funny. I honestly never shunned GM for badge engineering. Well...to the extreme that auto journalists and haters do to this day. VW did to a better job of badge engineering marketing wise and better job of differentiating in the 1980s and 1990s, but today, you could clearly see (if one chooses to take the VW blinders off) that VW has done a shytty job of badge engineering the last 20 years... As bad as GM was doing it during those 1980s and 1990s... Honda and Toyota...if one chose to take the blinders off back then...would see that their badge engineering efforts were the SAME as GM's in the 1980s and 1990s. Its their marketing department that was better than GM's... But in order to see that...one has to take off the blinders. One has to ease up on the GM hate and one has to ump their sarcastic view they have on GM and transfer that to Honda, Toyota and VW... I just wished GM had better marketing then and today to offset the badge engineering efforts.