oldshurst442

I dunno anymore. About ICE and BE. Although I have always loved the E39 M5, its a modern day classic. Its the equivalent of a '70 Olds 442 or Buick GS Stage 1. Or a Hemi powered '55 Chrysler 300. But, the Tesla Model S also represents this. And a decade later, its still the EV benchmark. Just like how the E39 M5 is STILL the sports sedan benchmark. Question one has for a Model S is: does the Model S continue that flame. One could easily dismissed it as its got a 'soulless' electric motor. In my opinion, its not that easy to dismiss the motive power and software in the Tesla. For a decade, many many internal combustion behemoths tried to out perform it and all have failed. Even the latest EVs from other companies have tried to outperform it, and all have failed. OK, you said that modern appliances ARE faster, but not elicit the joy one gets with a 'classic'. OK, then why is it Im giggling like a school girl watching the video about yet another drag race involving the Model S, 10 years of this and the Model S hasnt changed all that much but Im still giggling in anticipation and KNOWINGLY ASSUMINGLY that the Model S will win again... And then when I FINALLY see the result, I jumped out of my seat GLEEFULLY laughing and yelling OH YEAH!!! like the Montreal Expos have won the World Series. Problem is, the Montreal Expos have NEVER won a World Series, probably never will because they dont even exist anymore but with the Tesla Model S, its like a yearly, monthly, daily thing. Its a fact of life that the Model S is a straight line performance GOAT. Its not as if the Model S is good in only one thing. It wasnt designed to go around a track and yet, from the factory, a couple of modifications and its a track star too. It aint a superstar, but its quite good. Heft is a problem for tracking though and its the one thing that an ICE oriented vehicle will always be more fun to drive around a track than a BE. But, later versions of the M5, and they too suffer from heft and lack the finesse the E39 had around the twisties... The latest M5 CS corrects this though. Which leads me to the styling. Whether we are talking about BMW E39 M5s, Tesla Model S' or the latest F90 M5 CS, they all kinda look the same... The E39 actually looks like a bigger E36 3 Series. The F90 looks like a more used up bar of soap E39. And the Model S is stylized in the middle of this modern look since the Ford Taurus to front stage back in '86. In all 3 cases, nothing to write home about if we are really really honest about this whole thing about souls and excitement. Call me crazy though, and as much as I love the E39 M5 and the F90 M5 CS, because I am actually very VERY fond of it, like really. Im not shytting you The Model S might just be my favorite out of all 3 of them, even though I think the styling of the Model S is in 2022 outdated, I think its become a classic and its still rolling on our roads and we could buy it new new. Customize it how every we want from the factory.

Yeah. Buick was trying to be the American Jag. I agree. And you clearly drove home the point. I love your choice of pics to compare and contrast! The Aurora and Oldsmobile was the sporty German/Japanese alternative. The Catera tried to right the wrong wheel drive approach to competing with the Germans when they introduced the 1990s STS. But this is where the Aurora comes in. The G Platform (Aurora and Riviera) and the K Platform (Deville/Seville/Eldorado) were derivatives of each other. Marketing for the Aurora, Riviera, Seville were all derivative of each other too. To be alternative German and Japanese sporty and luxury competitors. The Riviera's historic past was more closely attached to be a natural rival to a Jag, and that is where Buick's marketing was tuned to, true, but also, the Riviera, JUST the Riviera, was also looking to go younger DESPITE having larger fonts for the speedometer. Hence Audi. Audi saw a renaissance. Buick with this Riviera, also saw a way to rejuvenate itself trying to younger. And it helped that Oldsmobile did exactly that and sparked it off with the Aurora. The Riviera would ride that coat tail, the coupe platform mate of the Aurora. Cadillac would also get a THIRD try to entice yuppies from buying BMWs. The first was the Cimarron. The second try was the NorthStar STS, and the third try was the Catera. I mentioned the A4, because Audi too, was damned serious in dethroning the 3 Series. But maybe I should have said the A6. But the A6 was a sedan and the Riviera was a coupe. But the Aurora definitely was aimed at the Audi A6 market. Sure, the A4 was a sedan too, but the Catera was more in tune to do battle with the 3 Series than it was rto do battle with the A4. RWD. The A4 was FWD/AWD. Riviera was FWD. But yeah, everything in this class was a derivative of each other is what Im trying to say. Albeit not eloquently. It IS a good thing you dont charge by the word. LOL.

An improvement for sure. But not quite convincing of being a high end vehicle. Especially when GM with Buick and Oldsmobile, at this point wanted to attract the younger, hipper crowd. While the Riviera had a bigger font in the speedometer dials for the older generation to better see the numbers...the Riviera was geared for the Audi A4, Acura Legend types. Much like the Aurora. The all wood interior just chased the younger crowd away faster. Ironically, an all black plasticky interior would have benefitted the Riviera more than the beige (or god awful blue) or the all wood one. That is what the Germans and Japanese did. All black plastic. With a tiny strip of plood across the dash as an option. If any wood trim at all.

My mom would say this about me when gossiping to her Greek friends: "He colours his food black and white with the amount of salt and pepper he adds" I dont add salt to my food anymore though. Just a tad on an egg or a steak. Pepper consumption has also gone down considerably but not gone like how salt has. Funny how age alters ones habits...

I had another posted another pic of the Citroen. I nicer pic. But I guess trademark rules applied. The one I found will have to do.

mid to late '70s Jag XJC 5.3 V12

I like the exterior of those mid 1990s Rivieras. I do prefer the Aurora tho. I like the design of the Riviera interior. It took great inspiration from the original interior. I dont like the execution and materials chosen. (too plasticky and very very cheap looking) The Aurora's interior is much better executed. A peg or two above the Riviera's interior with slightly better materials. More refined and much more upscale in appearance and feel. Too bad GM had to beancount that interior. The original Riviera interior was exquisite. versus

Im certainly grateful

^^^ I dont see why not. Unless a majority stock purchase will burden GM in any way. But I cant see any negative to it. Only good. Its not as if General Motors has never bought another car company before. However, either from a merger or just as a partnership, Honda would need to be Honda and not just another GM brand if a merger or a partnership with Honda is to be. https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1132733_2024-honda-prologue-is-new-electric-crossover-based-on-gm-s-ultium-platform

True. And GM's time was almost up in 2009. Ford came up to bat for them. And its not as if Honda is in danger of insolvency either. Plus Honda will not just give up and die. Honda would have found another partner if it wasnt with GM. Like I stated above, Honda as a company has a wide field of expertise and engineering that would be an asset to a joint venture program like say....solid state battery development, which they have been R&D-ing heavily in and Im surprised to learn they are advanced in this tech. GM will be using that tech with Honda in GM's Ultium platform. Sounds like a decent marriage to me. And Honda and GM have worked together in the recent past for hydrogen fuel cells and autonomous driving vehicles for fleet services.

And why should they buy GM? Lemming pool? Generic appliances? All three questions and Im gonna bash GM defending Honda. Yes...Honda builds generic shyte. As does GM. One generic appliance vehicle from GM is no better or worse than from Honda. GM HAD a lemming pool of rabid fanbois. GM pissed that away. GM has tried to get them back. Honda invited them in and these folk have not looked back. Dont blame Honda lemmings. Blame GM corporate big wigs for phoquing it up. Yes. GM is no longer THAT GM anymore. But its too damned bad if Honda fanbois stay with Honda. But the thing that bothers me most about that quote of yours and Balthy's about not sharing with Honda.... Honda has GREAT engineers. Being partnered with Honda is an ASSET for GM. And obviously vice versa. Honda has no EV platforms. They could engineer them. They may not have the cash to do so. HOWEVER, Honda engineers will work with GM engineers when these Ultium platforms become available to them and when enough Honda EVs by Ultium are sold to Honda customer's....Honda engineers could work with GM engineers to IMPROVE upon future Ultium platforms. Honda has a wide wide wide engineering field. It was smart for GM to partner up with Honda... Honda

^^^ Saturn Redline V6 was a 3.5 liter Honda V6 Pontiac Vibe had a Toyota 1.8 liter 4 cylinder mid '80s Chevrolet Nova had a Toyota 1.6 liter 4 cylinder Toyota 86 has a Subaru 2.4 liter flat 4 cylinder this generation Toyota Supra has a 3.0 liter inline 6 from BMW Lotus Elise uses a Toyota 1.8 liter 4 cylinder Lotus Evora uses a Toyota 3.5 liter V6 McLaren F1 used a 6 liter BMW V12 Aston Martin uses AMG engines. V12s and V8s. I dont remember what models... Im sure there are other examples. These are from the top of my head that I know about. Honda does not have any EV platforms. Honda could just as easily partner up with another manufacturer that could use the R&D money and engineering sharing that has a platform, maybe BMW, maybe Mercedes, maybe Ford or Stellantis or even Toyota. (Toyota has been known to help fellow Japanese car makers...like Mazda) and GM could just as easily lose out to (sales) Honda in the long run anyway... Might as well partner up, share costs, use Honda brains AND money and sell affordable EVs world wide. GM may have needed solid state battery tech. Or at least to share R&D costs for solid state tech... If GM (and Honda) is to sell affordable EVs, for real, to customers, because as we know EV production is expensive and selling high priced EVs to compensate the costs is not viable as the majority of car owners are not of the wealthy type..then this way is the way. Dont partner up with Honda, Honda will partner up with another, and lose out on potential sales with Honda as your rival.. Partner up with Honda, share costs and engineering, and lose out on potential sales to Honda, but as your partner... Big difference.

Those Kids in America are now at a minimum 50 years old. Oh but what a time in America it was! It was Magic! Im still head over heels for that decade. 'Cause the 80s are good enough for me. It was a fun ride!

Awesome lighting (backlit?) ambience. Old school HI-FI stereo system style in a car that has not only influenced todays LED automobile dashboard lighting, but today's high end HI FI systems. Old School New School What is old is new again.

Ill ease up on the salt. LOL Its a great day in Montreal SUNNY!!! and WARM!!! Ok... The name of the thread is: competition to destroy Tesla. Not from Mercedes I says for the third time in this thread. Not only for trolling SMK, but based in reality. Its common knowledge that Tesla's EV tech is years ahead of the competition. Its only natural. Tesla has been studying this, R and D-ind this for quite longer than some others. Mercedes is lagging in that department. Strike One against Mercedes. But my reasoning of why Mercedes EVs will be languishing on the floor in 2024 is not only because of the lagging behind in tech as compared not only to Tesla, but to GM and Ford as well. Volkswagen group with Audi's Etron GT and Porsche's Taycan is ALSO ahead of the Mercedes EQS' tech. And Porsche will have a jab at their second attempt to improve upon the Taycan about this time around. Porsche and Audi twins are gonna be FORMIDABLE come 2024 or 2025. Another point: Which is Strike Two: STYLE The EQS is ugly NOW. ALL offerings of EQE and EQB are UGLY. And these will come out in 2022. In 2024, they will be THAT MUCH MORE outdated. tech AND ESPECIALLY styling wise. Mercedes top luxury cars, the limosine type cars, the S Class, has ALWAYS been STATELY. Boring...but STATELY. Boring we could live with as long as its STATELY. Ugly is NOT exciting. The thing is, the EQS is not even stately. The KEY feature of any top Mercedes is STATELY. One could argue the EQB is stately. I will give in to that idea. But the other two just fall short in every way that shouldnt be in order for Mercedes to stand out in the EV arena in 2024. Not forgetting that Cadillac will have a stately Lyriq (I dont like it, but to many its not only sexy, but stately as well. The Lucid Air. Lucid's SUV... etc etc etc...

Maybe you should NOT cherry pick? The conversation was that they are gonna be languishing on the floor...in 2024... He (SMK) mentioned 2024. I kindly responded in the context of 2024. As @surreal1272 pointed out, and Im not stupid to know that there is a penurie of chips and therefore there is a penurie of new cars available to buy and therefore no languishing of cars for the most part for most brands and for most models are happening right now and for at least well into 2023... I dunno...reading and reading comprehension aint that hard if you have completed primary school. But yeah...feel free to call me out on YOUR lack of reading comprehension... (penurie...french for shortage.) FREE French lesson for the day. Second time somebody has reading problems in this thread. I will start teaching you folks french. Maybe we will understand each other better as it seems plain 'ole English is problematic...

Yup... This is the EXACT quote! The Rivian was not made to outsell the F150 nor the Silverado. The Rivian was not made to outsell any of the Teslas. The Rivian was not made to out luxury any Cadillac, Mercedes or to outperform speed metrics from Tesla, Ferrari etc. Rivian was not even made to out offroad any Hummer or an eventual EV Land Rover and EV Jeep. Rivian created a possibly new EV niche from an existing yet small niche of the lifestyle pick-up, SUV, hatchback Subaru internal combustion offering. That of the outdoorsy, bicycle riding, fishing in the wild rivers and lakes of North America, rock climbing in the Appalachians, skiing in the Rockies and in Aspen, lifestyle. The bow and arrow hunting, bungee jumping lycra wearing youtube influencing Tik Tokkers. How big of a pie that is is anybody's guess. But its an EV niche that belongs ALL to themselves as the Cybertruck from Tesla somehow is the same niche. Im bet though, Rivian R1T and their SUV counterpart will still outsell the Mercedes trio of EVs no matter how small that niche is... Mind you, this niche is an old niche. The Jeep CJ and Ford Bronco did that 60-70 years ago and its an on going thing, this time its from a green EV point of view. Mercedes could have done something like that and beat Rivian to the punch. They got existing ICEVs in their current stable... https://www.mercedes-benz.com/en/vehicles/transporter/the-new-sprinter-4x4-new-options-offroad/ They were too busy trying to phone it in with a Nissan badge job with a gas powered engine... Mercedes lost precious time and EV engineering knowledge and conceded to many manufacturers in the EV era... Mercedes has NOTHING to offer to ANYBODY in the EV era... Just to blind peons that will cling on to the glory of the good 'ole days when Mercedes was product placing in Hollywood movie blockbusters suck as Jurassic Park. Soooooooo '90s. BTW, Im curious, you still watch F*R*I*E*N*D*S?

Level 3 autonomous is bogus. For everybody. EVERYBODY is PAYING OVER sticker EVERYWHERE With the Rivian, you sound like a child... Mercedes literally doesnt sell ANY EVs to the public worth mentioning. Mercedes is a lost cause for EVs...