ccap41

Well yes, there is no way of posting a Ford vs GM thread without bitching across the board.. It's going to happen.. Yeah didn't you post this on Thanksgiving or something though? It's inevitable that people are busy with family and not the internet for a day. Agreed. 90% was bickering and not even discussing the two track cars on track..sales? really? I'm surprised fuel economy never came up. lol The one thing I don't understand is margain of victory. What is considered a good win and what is a bad win? Would a 2 second win around the given track be considered a "beat down"? 3 second? 4 second? Where is the line drawn for a victory that would be acceptable? And with that, people are downplaying how great the Z/28 is just because it is out of production. Just because it isn't being produced anymore doesn't make it all of a sudden a lesser car. Yes, there will be a few gnarly Alphas to come down the line but if we play the "wait till XXX comes out" that's just a childish game that can be played by anyone at any time and there is no real basis there. Just "what if's". Also, I commented on the dynos but just no response. I'm not sure if you were posting to get under other people's skin or to have a legitimate conversation but I tried twice to talk about the dynos.

Ooooooor it could be worded that it beat a great track star and overall a badass car which won Besr Driver's Car just last year. Both of which are true.

Yeah that's too much if you ask me. I assume 90% of buyers will only put 87 in too because it's just that much cheaper.

Just start thread banning people who talk about irrelevant [/size]crap for 5 pages in every thread. Throw that hammer 'round. <- That, that hammer. But then Ford fans would never be able to post. I kid, I kid folks. Honestly, that'd be fine. Do what ya gotta do.

If one honestly thins they can change how somebody acts by forcing them to change their name they're just plain wrong. Look at the posts following said name change for proof. No, one didn't have to deal with it because they cried like a little baby till they got their bottle. I never thought they would have been one of "those people". "You can take the person out of the ghetto but you can't take the ghetto out of the person."

Just start thread banning people who talk about irrelevant crap for 5 pages in every thread. Throw that hammer 'round. <- That, that hammer.

To force somebody to change their user name because somebody "didn't like it" is stupid and the said individual should just grow a set instead of complaining about somebody's friggin screen name. There are a million better and more worthy things to worry about. You're the kind of person who will bitch and complain at Wal*Mart to get more than your money back because they left you "unsatisfied" and you "deserve" to be treated differently. Grow up, Grow a set, and stop feeling entitled. Funny story, not everything can go your way in life. Sometimes...you just have to deal with it.

http://www.cargurus.com/Cars/l-Used-2015-Chevrolet-Camaro-Z28-t54892#listing=127987798 http://www.cargurus.com/Cars/l-Used-2015-Chevrolet-Camaro-Z28-t54892#listing=101678439 This is a stupid argument at this point...

This is what you said. I guess when you said "out on the street" you don't mean dipping into the throttle too much. When you say 0-60 and street that sounds like a sprint. I brought up 1/4 mile as a finite finish line as the streets don't have a finish line. Yes, the Z has more bottom end, by a lot. But in any race, even 0-60, you only utilize that for a very short period in 1st gear only. Daily driving or cruising, definitely more of a Z thing than an R thing. &#036;h&#33;tin' n gettin' is slightly more R than Z.

As off topic as this is going to fuelly is kind of a mixed bag no matter what vehicle you're looking at. For instance, Ford now has a n/a 3.5 AND 3.5T in the F150. They only break them down by displacement so you would be looking at both if you clicked "3.5". You also are relying on all of those people with only a handful of fillups to be accurate when odds are somebody with less than 10 fill ups, in a way, cherry picked them. Whether they wanted to see their road trip mileage or their towing a boat on vacation mileage. Also, From what I see both 2015 models, across the board, say they are averaging 17.1mpg. Breakdown of engines for those two? No clue at all. For all I know thats 90% 2WD 2.7s for Ford and 90% 4WD 6.2's for Chevy. Point being, as they are "real world" you're also looking at a lot of idiots trying to keep track of something and you won't get an even sample of all the variables. If you want you can break down all 201 vehicles from 2015 Ford F150s and get a real idea of what those people are getting in 2WD and 4WD and engine size but looking at it from a broad perspective you're missing a lot of information and the numbers can be misleading.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxqwQFqxPHM

Lol, there's no aero effect at low-mid speed roll-on acceleration. Come on now. And if you think the Shelby's 150lb weight advantage makes up for it's 100 lb-ft torque deficit, I don't really know what to tell you. When you're foot is flat on the floor and you're racing somebody else, other than 1st gear, low-mid range torque means nothing. It could be down 200lb-ft under 4000rpm and it wouldn't matter once you're in second gear. Heck, once you're going about 25mph it wouldn't matter because the motor would be so wound up at that point. The drag race between the two cars is a perfect example of that. I'm going to do you a favor and pretend like you didn't just say any of that. In the interest of you still having credibility. Because I like you. Are you serious? When these high strung motors are spinning at 5000 rpm and up that torque advantage at 2000 rpm doesn't mean anything and when you're racing you're not just hanging out at 2000rpm. If your scenario was the case why did the GT350R win the quarter mile sprint with a higher trap speed as well? It couldn't have just been the 150lb advantage. If low-mid range torque was that critical I don't think there would have ever been a flat plane crank v8 into production.

No, but I can read a dyno graph. Ohhhhhh.. Dynos don't show weight or anything aero going on which both of these cars utilize in acceleration.And, as you've said, dynos are used for tuning not measuring lol Lol, there's no aero effect at low-mid speed roll-on acceleration. Come on now. And if you think the Shelby's 150lb weight advantage makes up for it's 100 lb-ft torque deficit, I don't really know what to tell you. When you're foot is flat on the floor and you're racing somebody else, other than 1st gear, low-mid range torque means nothing. It could be down 200lb-ft under 4000rpm and it wouldn't matter once you're in second gear. Heck, once you're going about 25mph it wouldn't matter because the motor would be so wound up at that point. The drag race between the two cars is a perfect example of that.

I understand the persona of a V8 that means "high end" but like Drew has said over and over again that some still refuse to agree with(everybody has their own opinions) some here care way too much about the "how" rather than the results. A turbo 6 has more bottom end and will rev the same or even less than a n/a V8. I should say a modern turbo 6. And why does it matter in a car that isn't supposed to be sporty to begin with? If "quiet luxury" is the goal then and 400hp/tq is the end result why does it matter if it is a turbo 6 with less emission or a n/a v8 that usually make a little more noise and usually need a few more revs for torque(not significant but 1-200rpm makes more noise with 8 cylinders than it does with 6).

That's a pretty easy answer.. The bigger victory is the alpha over the GT. But as times creep closer and closer to 11's the percentage of victory of 1 tenth will grow. A car winning by 0.1 running 10.0 is a greater percent than winning my 0.1 when running 15.0(extreme examples). So as they creep closer and closer to a "perfect" 0.0 second sprint to 60mph(which is impossible for street legal cars) a win by 0.1 becomes a greater victory than it was 10 years ago. When a blistering time was 5.0 and now it's 4.0. Next is 3.0 then 2.0? Eventually you cannot be faster than 0 seconds to any amount of speed. I hope that makes sense.. I think I'm confusing what I'm trying to say. I feel like you're using the "out of production" argument to your advantage and not crediting how freakin good the Z28 is. The Z got nothing but praise by everybody just a year ago in every performance metric out there and now the car gets discredited because it isn't produced anymore? That shouldn't take away got great it is still. A Mclaren F1 is no less a car just because it's out of production. Comparing a car to that and beating it is still an outstanding accomplishment.

From how I see it, it was a huge victory but that's because the z28 is that great of a car. Had the Z not been as spectacular of a car it wouldn't be such a good victory but beating a car of that caliber whether in production or not is huge. And as cars advance and times diminish to 60 and 1/4 mile 1 tenth of a second becomes a larger and larger margin of victory.

Speaking of forced induction.. Who do you think will bring a blown 6 to the segment first? And in what "variant"? Could GM bring the new 3.0T somewhere or Ford put the 2.7 into the mustsng? Or 3.5?

No, but I can read a dyno graph. Ohhhhhh.. Dynos don't show weight or anything aero going on which both of these cars utilize in acceleration. And, as you've said, dynos are used for tuning not measuring lol

You are 100% wrong. The LS7 is currently peaked or near peak in NA guise. GM threw a lot of money and a lot of tricks at it. To claim it is not, means you have not looked into the hardware and manufacturing costs or at the very least, priced a crate motor. GM even talked about how many millions of CAE iterations were modeled before achieving their goals. So unless you believe GM just left a lot on the proverbial table, or that suddenly CAE tools have evolved much better...then I see little room for improvement without much more cost thrown at at. The most exotic costly thing about the 5.2L is that they CNC'd the heads, which is pretty standard stuff. There is nothing costly about the FP crank, other than a new casting is needed. Hardly exotic. Pistons are forged, again, standard stuff. Basic aluminum rods, so no ultra premium lightweight titanium. And all the tuning was achieved with cam designs. Again, standard hot rod stuff. A 5.2L crate motor is much less than the LS7. The most exotic tech about the 5.2L was that they were pinched for larger bore diameter, so they plasma coated the bores instead of cylinder liners. You are welcome. An LS7 is 16K retail. I work at a GM store, in case you didn't know. And if theink the LS7 is anywhere near tapped out, you're even more clueless than I thought. http://ls1tech.com/forums/dynamometer-results-comparisons/1430350-ls7-heads-cam-dyno-final-results-619whp-532wtq.html Feels stronger than what? An Alpha or GT350R? The Shelby. You've gotten behind the wheel of one of them?????

How is a cam and heads not a lot of investment? You're talking about a couple grand in parts.. Not saying it isn't very responsive to bolt ons(even though it already has an intake built by k&n) just that heads and a cam aren't really cheap and easy to do and will obviously require a tune.

Feels stronger than what? An Alpha or GT350R?

What are all three of the times to 60? I honestly looked past that and looked at the other numbers. Wasn't the Alpha like 4.1 or 4.0? What are the other two? And as its been said by others and myself included about the Z and R but neither are 0-60 cars. They're special and include waaaay more than a 0-60mph time. They are here to pull well north of 1.00g sustained and brake while turning, switchbacks, hairpin turns..etc. but also run 12.1-12.3 in the quarter mile, which is more of a bonus for these cars. For perspective, what's a Ferrari 458 sprint to 60 in? I assume no quicker than 4.0 as well. But that isn't what that car(or the Z or R) are about. They do way more than that and that's what actually makes these cars special. A Hellcat can sprint in a straight like like a bat out of hell but it's easy to make big power. It's tough to get that power to the ground while doing all of the above moves and that's where these new era of pony cars come into play. They sprint aaaand handle like exotics. I know the GT doesn't so much, compared to the alpha, Z, or R. I don't want you thinking I'm putting the GT into the same category as the Alpha has already proven itself as quite superior in any performance metric. Wow. Quite the ramble. I guess I'll read it tomorrow to see if any of it made sense.

Sorry, the Z(if truly only a 508hp car) only lost 8.7%!! I think that means it's more underrated than anything else. Still, it's one hell of a motor.

Silly is when someone tries to claim the car that was always behind was quicker. I thought he said an Alpha Camaro not the Z. It beat one damn good Camaro though. Not like it beat an SS.. It beat a freakin great car.

I've already said my part but I'll say it again.. The Z has to be underrated as the GT350R only lost 10.4% from engine to wheels. The former standard not all that long ago was 12-15% for manual trans cars and 15-20 for autos. Oh how times have changed! That means the Z was right around 10% or less loss. Impressive(or underrated). Either way it's working for them.