turbo200

i hope TED wasn't putting us together with those shots. I also hope the exterior matches the flair and classical flow seen here. It will be interesting to see how much of a executive saloon type design they came up with since that's the flavor of the interior.

all i'm saying is it doesn't strike any new ground and is cute. it's inoffensive and innocuous, slightly less enduring as the last one, but evenly upscale. it will be as relevant as the last one, which is to say significant but not that much. honda has an upscale design theme that's working, this isn't a step backwards, but they're not my favorite either, and they're still very very quirky, from bottom to top.

door panels look interesing in a wierd way, though there's nothing truly revealing in this shot, we still can't tell what the overall interior looks like unless we judge by the renderings posted here months back, which are mostly gone from my memory. so no judgement calls can really be made here. BUT, leather stitched dash, true luxury appointments, nice sculpting on the rims....these are all things we should be expecting in a Buick. If they are to turn the page, this better be a damned exciting car. I don't see Buick getting many more right times beyond now.

in essence that is the idea, but I would develop something off current mechanicals and design rather than force a five year old generic car. it could be the 'general' car, that would be built off the same platform as the others, offer the same mechanicals, only lacking badging and a particular design. thereby allowing GM to cater to fleets, and still offer the other brands to fleets only at significantly reduced numbers. platforms amortized quicker, resales grow, GM mechanicals still get the spotlight, rental buyer treated to up-to-date car, everybody wins. on another point, intrigue's idea of making the G6 all 4 cylinders and turbos is exactly the right kind of thinking for Pontiac. light, extreme, great road/autocross cars, catering to performance, with a rebelious and extrovert design. that would be my Pontiac.

it's not innovative, not good looking, and all seriousness except at the front where it's cute. this doesn't make much sense to me and seems like a misstep for Honda. The current one has been a give away car for some time, I don't believe that will go away after initial interest and newness wears off on this one. plus there will be increased competition in the large crossover category.

fine then, I guess it's just me and my grudge because we were promised RWD en masse and we're not going to get it. in all seriousness though, it's hard to deny they've made definite huge strides, and the Lutz effect is obviously paying off. But we still have a long way to go, and even the Lutz effect has some misfires, such as the total interior quality of both CTS and Malibu, and in my view some questionable design decisions, when others are going for perfection and cohesion. I love the Malibu in and out and think it's perfect, but with the CTS they strove too hard to incorporate the arced C-pillar from older Caddys, like the original Seville, and well that's one questionable design decision. There are others with other cars, like the Enclave. this can't continue to happen in a day when others are making truly beautiful and breathtaking designs, others that were already ahead in the first place. but asking for perfection is not asking for too much. Zeta could still lead to fantastic mass market, premium sedans for Buick and Chevy. I know in general the market is moving towards smaller cars, but there will still be holdouts for larger cars, and other carmakers will look for innovative ways to maintain gas mileage in profit stalwarts like trucks and expensive cars, so why doesn't GM? We're still in the fleshing out the lineup and flushing out the doosies stage. need i remind anyone of the catastophic failure that is the lacrosse? so i take issue with your list because you've listed a lot of great cars that are out of reach for average buyers. First I don't agree with STS, I don't think it's exciting. CTS on the other hand truly is a wonderful entry level luxury sedan [there is a problem with that statement but I'll leave that for another day]. Malibu is a spectacular success, but there are issues that will need to be improved upon that I beleive are being addressed, principally interior quality and spaciousness, and I know those will be addressed. G8 Ute is cool, but why do we have to wait so long? Camaro will be cool, really can't wait for that one [potential new Camaro buyer]. Aura lacks execution compared to Malibu, but is still a great car [must get better to compete in the most competitive segment in the market]. Acadia is fabulous, but Lambda as a whole does a shortcoming that makes it less appealing to me, the weight. That won't affect the overall market acceptance too much though, and the Acadia is really like a replacement for the old Grand Cherokee, with 3 rows of seats. Look at an Acadia and then compare it to the old GC and you'll see what I'm talking about: simple, straightforward, chunky, strong, and finally a dash of class amidst ruggedness. Enclave is less successful, much less, but still a high point for GM. The others you listed are either niche cars that won't have much of a real affect for GM except for elevating those particular models, or they're cars that simply don't meet my standards for exciting cars. It's that the lineup is still so far in limbo combined with the fact that looking into the future there will be at least 3 significant debuts cut from the lineup because of the Zeta cuts. Again, if this were another automaker, they would have figured out how to be innovative and just get the product out there. Not everybody can do large cars well, so the market is small but very uncontested, and the right ingredients have shown success, while others have clearly failed to understand what large car buyers are looking for. I had a vision for Impala, Lucerne, Velite, GTO.....and GM has one in concept form, that all could have worked. Could have is operative, with the right ingredients all these cars would have elevated thier prospective brands, and the platform is there, the investment has been made. Now the brands will have to wait another half decade to get those kinds of cars, or not

i think the more rounded chevy design theme makes more sense with the soft flowing roofline, compared to the blunt G8. but this particular chop is rather poor, and I don't think the Camaro theme works all that well here. Some Chevy look could make it look pretty good though. Whether it's a crew cab or a regular cab, I don't think you're going to see more than a niche market, maybe no more than 80k as a Chevy crew cab if priced and designed right..... an unsubtantially heavier tall and high off the ground unibody truck in the Denali XT flavor would be a bigger hit, along with a true Zeta Impala sedan [would be a bigger hit]. unless the thought behind something like this is that it can somehow bypass some CAFE rules, I don't think it makes a lot of sense to develop one, especially concurrently with a Denali XT pickup.

as is usual with GM, it's just another 5 years for truly exciting cars. instead of giving the public good product now and not making shareholders suffer the cost they constantly do with squandered opportunities; they'd rather wait another 5 years to have even more market share stolen from under them.

the greenhouse is the exact same from the sedan. at least that element I don't expect will change for the production version. I really like the taillights and hope these actually reflect the production model, as the article strongly claims to. a lot of the illustrations/depictions for past GM cars have been accurate, and I don't see how Cadillac's best interest would be served in keeping with the SRX design theme.

Hearing GM talk about flexible architectures makes me cringe. Look at where it's gotten us in the past. Epsilon was supposed to be flexible, Sigma was supposed to be flexible. Zeta is flexible and isn't being used here..... GM promising flexibility from an architecture is like GM promising to consistently refresh/update models....doesn't hold a lot of water.

hot.....and based in reality. the saab effect is there in c-pillar along with the raising beltline, but that's no problem as it looks distinct, and that effect works well on the Saab and also works well with the C-pillar design here. the raised beltline even works better with a wagon shape than the sedan. this will look really good, better than the sedan imo.

Enclave is proving that Buick can command luxury car pricing. Enclave has given Buick waiting lists and shown them what passion for design really means. if you go back and reread my post, I am making it clear Cadillac is a brand in transition, and as such they can't go for the full price yet like BMW and MB can, they need to establish a base and a principle. They need to be cohesive and the brand has to stand for something. Look at Audi and you're beginning to see a picture of what the brand stands for. I totally agree on your point about the Phaeton, it's this kind of thinking that Cadillac has to have to set it apart. You can't just go around expecting people to pay $70k for your sedan when there are damn near perfect sedans for that price point from companies that have proven why you pay that much for them. I'm not advocating the name DTS, just calling it what they are. although a simple, B, C, D lineup works pretty well for Cadillac, I think. AS for the rumors of ongoing development at the other companies, let's put it this way, Toyota was in the black and a positive of $10 billion for the year just a year ago, GM as a whole was in the red I believe. The other companies are going to be far ahead in R&D.

it's the negative perception that GM is battling that affects them the most. the perception there cars are all for rentals, all offer substandard quality/parts/feel......these are the things GM has to overcome. Then comes the beast which is getting people to think the American cars are as reliable as the Japanese cars. But first you have to get people to be convinced the feel is the same. Right now the difference in feel in the parts, I'm talking all the way from the engine to the ride to the quality of the parts to the way the door shuts to the quality of the sculpting of the exterior design, the difference from a cobalt to a civic is drastic. and so is the price, as such it should be. this applies neatly to almost every GM car. most buyers don't keep thier cars as long as they used to, the longevity issue becomes less of a 'is my car going to breakdown' issue, to a 'it should never breakdown since I'm only going to keep if for 5-6 years at the most, BUT throughout that time it needs to hold up and keep me feeling good about it' as for chevy they have expensive as hell trucks, they are a mainstream brand like toyota, and as such they can afford one premium car in the form of zeta impala. saturn is an anomaly, and a better positioning as well as target needs to be reached there. they are stepping on too many toes right now. I can sorta see them as the complete euro experience now, but that's where saab is, and saturn doesn't have the cachet for that. by complete euro experience I mean including the euro prices, the euro quality, the euro feel. basically what you have with the astra now here, except extended to more models, more powertrain choice, more euro. or they can just keep on stepping on everyone's toes until GM has money and time to figure out what to do with them. I agree with you on the 4-5 models, and my plan above only calls for that

the problem I see with moving Caddy so upscale so fast, is that, so far, GMs engineers don't seem up to the task. Whether it's the quality of materials, the refinement of powertrain, refinement of suspension, steering feel.....CTS doesn't seem to measure up to cars like the 5-series in total. Those cars keep moving up the price ladder, and they keep getting better and better, but CTS does feel much more like an entry level car than those. Also, the point you mentioned that Zeta doesn't seem like a platform that could command upwards of $70k pricing. It's not that it couldn't but this would be left to the details of the design and quality. Engineering the platform would be the first imperative and would have to be there to be able to compete. I think the platform, the drive and ride could potentially be $70k-class, but what about the rest. GM has only proven they can do great detailing on concept cars, as far as I'm concerned. Then there's the issue of GM wanting to position the Zeta sedan to retain DTS buyers, so while we're offering conjecture on an LS430-priced Caddy, GM seems intent on cheaping out and attracting the lower scale buyers.

to take this thread deeper off point.... here is a cost analysis/market position for the various cars in the 20k-40k range, according to turbo: malibu-larger EP II sedan, long wheelbase, total interior volume larger than current Impala 350k sales/year $20k-29 impala- zeta sedan built alongside camaro $25k-35k, variety engine choices, potential diesel availability I say if they aren't going to do Impala zeta, don't bother doing it at all. Impala Epsilon would only encroach on Malibu too mcuh. pontiac G6 Alpha $23k-32k RWD counterpart, BMW like ride characteristics, actual performance, upscale demeanor, basic G6 can be pretty basic G8 $26k-35k in current positioning, only offering more equipment, and three engine choices, keep the V8 reserved for a more expensive G8, starting at $33k. base engine choice should be a smaller V6 Pontiac, and GM on a whole need to start figuring out that great press and great customer word of mouth create buzz. they need to get with the program and start making real driver's cars. Cars like the 1-series, and all of BMW's lineup has been built on massive interest and appeal of great driving cars. the same can be said of honda, that one key reason they have such loyal buyers is because the level of driver interaction is unparalleled in thier price class. Buick Lacrosse $30k-$44k the upcoming concept will be the judge of how well Buick's newest sedan can be positioned in the prime entry level lux sedan category this could potentially make up for some CTS buyers looking for a cheap luxury sedan Sub Lacrosse Regal/Skylark $24k-34k fairly compact, very well damped, executive compact with luxury positioning\ zeta Buick stately, curvaceous, elegant, strong $42k-55k to attract DTS customers [you will need the right kind of elegant stand out bold design, original, but drawing on the right Buicks of the past that had presence and luxury] Cadillac [has to take baby steps in moving upmarket, so the next generation should be priced even slightly higher] Caddy must take great steps to continue to hone in on what it's market potential is, where the ride/handling balance should go, the design reach the brand should have. The ride/handling tradeoff is crucial. they need to go even higher than what they did with CTS, they must go for the gold standard and continue to reach the point BMW has so well marked for itself. B-series $29k-44k must offer incredible original Caddy style, something bold and different, yet in keeping with current themes. must be an incredible car to drive. C-series $37k-55k[must move upmarket. the price class must fit the size class, Cadillac can still be cheaper mid sedan just not as cheap as it is now, this can allow premium feel of 'CTS' to improve above what it is now. D-series $50k-70k GM must make this sedan truly great and awe-inspiring. None of the corner cutting or half-baked feel of the STS. This must be a car not price-pointed in development, instead developed, refined, precisely maintained, with a complete air of quality and solidarity to compete. Remember you are going against cars that have a reputation for durability in the form of S-class, 7-series, etc. Even though they may be considered 'unreliable' to many here, these cars give a sense of stupendous durability, longevity in thier drive along with the substance of the parts, aura of quality. So, to me, there is room for Impala.

It's a marketing choice. First, there aren't many buyers for stick shift family sedans period. Though there are the occasional, if I were looking at it from a regular family man's perspective and not my own [my own would be to get stick regardless], I know if I lived in somewhere like PA, VA, or a mountainous state with less congestion this would be a natural choice as a family man. That being said, the marketing choice they've made is that the V6/stick buyers are looking for an upmarket sports sedan, so the 6-spd has always been offered with all the trappings. The last Accord/6-spd/6 cyl was a sick sick sick sick sick drive that just sat on the lot. But boy was that a hot number, oh man, and they would have given it away, probably did in the end. Almost too much engine for me, when I used to drive that [i'm not used to massive torque amounts from a 6, though I could get well accustomed, just as most here have]. Reg- there are comments I left you in the G8 review thread. I just wanted to hear your opinion. sign then drive is very tempting....

On the first point, smk, I am going on your normal form and saying I am beyond underwhelmed with the moves all kuxury carmakers are making to include hybrids in thier cars. As I said, I would be in favor of all luxury cars having some form of a hybrid system, standard. Luxury cars are already expensive, they can afford to take a hit in price, or to raise thier prices by just 1-2k. Luxury cars represent a huge, gargantuan piece of the pie of sales in Los Angeles, and I am squarely talking about the entry level luxury race. the G35, 3-series, C-class, IS all are huge sellers and represent populous choices in Los Angeles. Here, it's the common AMG model that gets heads turning and nods of approval, the standard C-class is this era's Cavalier, at least in LA. So, the issue is that of all those luxury cars, none of them can be called 'efficient'. Thier mainly excess mobiles and none have a focus on fuel economy that results in something better than mainstream cars. That could be a new territory luxury cars could explore. On your second point, I am doing a bit of wishful thinking on the rating for the NA 3.2 DI, but that's because that's where I want to see GM go. fuel economy for ecotec is not stellar, and needs to get better, as do all GM 4 and 6 cylinder engines. As for the mild hybrid though, they've just announced improvements to the battery tech, so BAS II will have improved mileage, I guess stay tuned. On your third point. Zeta anything is what we need here. Weight reduction is a must. But sometimes you have to love the one you're with, and Zeta can produce amazing large, premium sedans, which GM is in desperate need of. Anything to do with cars, GM is in desperate need of. As for the alluminum chassis bit, I think the next CTS still needs to aim mainstream, so with a sub-CTS Alpha sedan running the range of $29k-49k, this will give CTS room to improve content, improve quality, improve powertrain, offer variety powertrain choices, improve refinement, improve ride/handling, offer weight savings measures and be priced from $37k-55k. The one that should feature alluminum chassis is the 7-series competitor, along with any performance car Cadillac is looking into, aside from the entry level car.

to all you said hyperV6, only one thing to say is I am waiting with bated breath. I hope so to everything you have to say. I am keen on seeing Zeta get a weight reduction and Ecoetec. I am also interested in seeing GM do all alluminum platforms for Caddy, in larger sedans, coupes, and sports cars, and based on Zeta fundamentals would be interesting. and could prove beneficial to lower forms of Zeta along with the lower brands. I also would like to see Zeta Impala become a reality. GM must make this car happen, as it was said to be a game changer, and could heavily alter the perception of Chevy cars.

two things I'm thinking about your impressions reg- one is that you maybe didn't let the suspension really warm up? a lot of times, suspension characteristics will change as you drive harder, drive for longer periods of time, drive at consistent highway speeds, or drive aggressively with aggressive input say for repeated cornering. just thinking that maybe you only drove one specific way. cars these days have suspensions that are strongly reactive to driver input, well some cars, and so their 'ride quality' character may take some to actually familiarize yourself with and get comfortable with. the other thing I'm thinking is that you just don't like sports suspensions. no magazine has complained about the suspension settings, in fact they've lauded GM for sticking to FE3 and lauded the level of compliance with the right amount of grip and damping. so either you really didn't fully test the cars capabilities and you just got in, just drove you know 50 straight for a while, after some hothead driver had been putting the pedal to the metal, racing around corners. this could be true. or you justs didn't 'get' it. My next question would be have you tested the CTS. because that seems like it would be a good barometer for the stiffness of G8, especially in sport mode. as for me, when it comes to suspensions, you can't get too stiff, am I right or am I right? [double-entendre]

The most significant lines are concerning the 'mild hybrid system', and that GM can put it in any 4 cylinder car without overhauls to the car's structures. I guess this also means it is harder to put the mild hybrid in 6 and 8 cylinder GMs. Nonetheless, this is a fascinating line because it means GM has been looking into applying mild hybrid en masse, such as has been suggested here already, by myself and others. That would be such a huge move. I have been thinking of how wonderful it would be if all luxury cars came wiht some form of the mild hybrid or full hybrid systems. They wouldn't have to change the cars cosmetically, but the sheer benefit of the additional electric motor, the regenerating characteristcs, and stop/go features of a hybrid system would go seriously long ways towards solving some of our gas consumption issues. Luxury cars are the biggest gas guzzlers, in general. Luxury cars in general are purchased in significant numbers in massively poplous business centers throughout the US where congestion and inefficiency are heavy. There have been studies done on LA of how many hours we waste sitting on a freeway, it's not pretty. So you can see why, if I were a Washington Senator, I'd be targeting luxury cars and thier inefficieny. Generally, mass market cars are 4 cylinders and reasonably efficient 6 cylinders. Trucks are the other major sector for inefficiency. I'd also be working on systems within urban centers to get people out of thier cars more often and into mass transportation at least half the time they go places. Thanks to PCS for posting this as it also shows GM is expressing interest in alternatives for Zeta!!!!!!!! This is the right way to go. Finding the way forward requires seeing what would cost the least amount of resources, while offering the most amount of benefits. I think we will see people moving more towards the big car formula, which is ironic because it didn't look that way for a while. Especially around the size of Accord but offering the efficiency that and Camry offer is key. So if we can get a G8 with a mild hybrid V6 doing 30/45, for reasonable prices, or if this has to be Impala because it can be built in the US, that is the way to go. By reasonable prices, I mean we should be looking at $28k for this kind of hybrid Impala/G8/Zeta. I see no reason why we shouldn't also get a 3.2 DI and soon, offering 240 hp, but much higher fuel mileage, say 24/36 for a Malibu/G8. Continuing to improve on product desirability and a continous goal of changing perception are Job 1 at GM. Even though Malibu is fantastic, it still has the last gen Malibu polluting the streets and offering deathly resale value to scare potential buyers away. GM must work hard at releasing fantastic products, from bottom to top, that help people forget what was there before. That I beleive precludes cancelling Zeta, since Cadillac must be RWD, and there's no other suitable large car platform for that. Unless you want Cadillac to be Lincoln and enjoy seeing BMW raking in the profits!

Aura has had plenty of advertising here, completely effeminite as it may be. This just brings me back to the point that literally nothing goes well with the name Saturn. Saturn Astra< Opel Astra. Opel Antara >Saturn Antara. Opel Insignia> Saturn Insignia. It's a lame name and yet another example to discredit the Roger Smith era.

100+ pounds is 100+pounds. Camaro RS= $27,000 basic equipment, only manual transmission, lightweight carbon fiber roof, hood, trunk. 250 lbs less than Camaro V8, 340 hp twin turbo DI 2.0

without a doubt sounds like an excellent motor to add to the portfolio. this engine should power a Camaro. how much lighter could ecotec be relative to LS serioes engines?

this car is a serious super duper sleeper bargain. I'll take the aggressive lip spoiler and aggressive lower grille/intake from the concept above, add some blackouts to the stock rear tails, carbon fiber gray hood and gray colored versions of the stock wheels [or some better designs, not crazy about these wheels] with the stock red color. also grille from the concept pictured above and more distinct headlamps, or switch in the Astra headlamps if they fit [think they should]. something more like the astra headlamps would be cool. with all the changes you have a $25k sports sedan [with some expert negotiating], that'll blow the doors off most sport compacts, except STI and Evo. This car is awesome. Thank God for aftermarket. REG if you want some serious fun, you should consider what I said above, and freaking get this car. read the reviews on Edmunds for the SS coupe and you don't have to hesitate in thinking the updates are phenomonal, I especially like the suspension changes. Don't care if you have to get your wide ass to the gym to fit, this car sounds like serious fun. I'm almost considering getting one, of course with the changes I said above. [that being said, I might be in the market at the end of the year/early next year, at which point lots of interesting alternatives will be available, including Camaro.]

there's always the hope. certainly it seems relatively feasible, the platform is built, the rolling prototype is there, and seemingly Holden has everything ready to go. I think it can't hurt the chances if G8 starts selling out. More press like DetNews Mark Phelan's review would only help the cause.