turbo200

"The seller ended this listing early because the item is no longer available for sale."

the 135 and A3 are actually more of the same, starting around $28k going all the way to 36k. I don't see how an economy car priced as high as midsize cars and "luxury" cars from other brands proves the point they've moved downward. If anything they are very upscale and they prove my point that the brands have moved upward on the virtue of being really expensive small cars. The C coupe is an abberation and again a very expensive small car. You can barely get into one under $27k, and the next one won't be coming here. At the same time that these smaller, still expensive models were introduced, more expensive larger models also met with public fanfare. The AMG line has proliferated and is more expensive than ever, as well as being more popular saleswise than ever. BMW didn't have a 6-series and a successful 7-series a decade ago. MB didn't have a CLS. Audi's A8 was an also-ran compared to being a contender now, hell the whole Audi line was an also ran and selling nowhere near what it does now, and they are now positioning themselves to become a full high line luxury make, by starting to position its cars from a higher price point beginning with the A5. Lexus' LS never before reached the price stratosphere it's in now. They also never sold the GS in good numbers before this generation. Cadillac never had a line priced as high or as successful as the Escalade a decade ago, one that could reach $70k in the process and has had a number of model proliferations. Land Rover was a non-entity before being sold to Ford. I would say the march has certainly been upscale.

I actually hold your counterpoint in high regard [and mostly try to read through your posts unless your tone sounds the same and your not saying anything new]. I'm gonna say the reason you're responding this way is because of the abrassive tone I responded to you before, and that I took issue with so many of your points. So let's get back to what was making this thread good. Zarella actually was behind approving the original Art &Science theme for CTS, and if you'll remember there were ads running for "When Art &Science meet" or something to that extent for the Seville STS and the original Cadillac Le Mans car. Anywho, it was because of him that the Cadillac team was given freedom tap the best of the corporation to create a new platform and new design theme, which influenced the second generation Escalade. There is substance in my arguments, and none in yours here. Usually you do have substance to your points, but here you're trying to simplify some huge successes. Though VW has a checkered past and many in the press consistently speculate on its demise, it keeps pulling through when the new product catches on. As a matter of design, it's subjective, but you can't be subjective about one single car, the A4, along with a new design theme, pulling a brand from certain death and a huge publicity failure, talking about the '80's test where there cars exploded or something. Then you look at VW and you've got the Passat from the late '90's, the Beetle, and the Jetta also from the late '90's that revitalized the brand, and slapped the brand back onto shopping lists on the back of a good design theme. That was all it took to revive the brand, a new theme. Nissan is another success you're simply trying to dismiss with words. As if every company launches a car that immediately moves up the list to become one of the best selling cars in the country, coming from being nowhere near this point. Infiniti was pretty much dead, decidedly downmarket, and had no direction whatsoever. Now, they have one of the more refined themes for design in the G35/G37, and actually have a dignified stance in the luxury market, even as they have plenty of room to go up and need to in order to match Lexus.

if anything the DI engine should be the uplevel model with the V8 being a limited, inexpensive option. that would make that model hot.

what?!??? So Bugatti always sold a $1 million car? Porsche always had a Carrera GT at $500,000? Mercedes always had at least 5 products over $100,000? BMW too? Lexus just started in the $70k market spontaneously? Cadillac always had a $70k Escalade? Audi always had an R8? This whole last decade has been about moving brands upscale, and they are still doing it, actually ever moreso than before. Where have you been? this is actually where the American market as a whole has been going, carmakers worldwide are responding our market's explosive growth in the wealth market, as well as across the globe. do you think Ipod's, Iphone's, and all the other common commodities we have today were thought of in the expendable way they're thought of today?

there isn't any difference because the product planners have not built in differences into the brands. there isn't any money to do so because the product planners have failed at thier job of making attractive, viable, alternatives within each brand that aren't merely copies of one another. we've seen so many copies and rebadges because GM has constantly bent over and bowed down to the will of extenuating circumstances instead of taking the high road and building product that market at large will react to and want to buy. there is such a thing as a difference right now between a pontiac buyer and chevy buyers. currently, the only viable difference is that pontiac buyers are attracted to more aggressive styling than is available at chevy. no it isn't enough to distinguish the buyers, but there is a huge gap in style between the conservative Impala and aggressive Gran Prix. they may be some of the worst characterizations of what these brand tenets stand for, but they exist and they certainly differentiate the kind of buyer going after these brands. the case we're trying to make is to further separate these brands. finally, Japan's market is also much much smaller than our own, a fact you conveniently left out in your statements.

nobody disagrees with you on either of these points. dealers need to be trimmed and they need to be listened to less often. the company in charge of putting out the product that sells needs to be in charge again.

opinions are like a$$holes like someone else said in this thread. let me tell you something, if Audi and VW believed they were tarnished in the '90's, we would never have thier great designs and interior quality influencing industry leaders. if Nissan/Infiniti gave up in the '90's a whole slew of competitive product that has turned the top 20 best selling cars upside down would never have been released. if Zarella hadn't let Caddy's designers do whatever they wanted, CTS and Escalade wouldn't have come to fruition and we'd be dealing with an even worse problem than what we have today. please don't repeat this garbage again. it has been proven time and time again that brands can be revived with a stroke of product genius.

just because a car is an automatic option on someone's shopping list does not mean that person does not do thier research. many toyo buyers are faithful, but the same can be said of other carmakers. the difference is, today, there are many good cars on the market, and the camry is one of them, except with the camry you get many other virtues that are appreciated by the discerning buyer. longevity, proven quality, resale value, and an everyday car you can't really frown upon but obviously won't get you any stature either. in terms of pricing, this is where the mfgs are killing each other. the price wars are in full effect, and when you have a readily available lease for a Camry at under $200/month, this means seriously intense competition, especially when we're talking about a car only on sale for two years already. the attention span of the auto buying public moves fast here because of the surplus of options, and the pricing is reflecting that.

I'm kind of big on the three pronged strategy. small, small medium, and medium, with medium being the Zeta G8 [though it can obviously be classified as large to some]. I think performance, rebeliousness, style are all part of Pontiac's image. These can be reinforced in the traditional three categories dividing the market, just obviously in Pontiac's case we would offer distinctly different alternatives, since the middle and large would be RWD and offer great performance/handling for affordable prices. I do think Pontiacs should be at least 3k more expensive than Chevy. A small sports coupe I described above should go for 18-22k. Minimal options list. Engines varying performance. I'm not against having a lightweight engine so long as the core performance characteristics of great handling/performing/driving remain intact. For anyone who's ever driven a '91 240sx, think this car updated. Next should be the RWD Grand Am-sized car. this should be a 24k-30k car. Again, options should remain fairly minimal as Pontiacs should come decently loaded. Like the G8. Think Acura for equipment levels and trim levels/packages. Last would be G8, which I think is fine from 27k-33k.

gas prices are the wild card. hard to predict, except obviously things are going up only. how drastically and how soon is left undetermined. you see if we had more forward thinking execs, they would have already positioned the brands like we've been discussing here, and invested in better tech to still adhere to these brand philosophies. going into the future, i see a lot more cars with 4 cyl, and hopefully the tech everybody wants to try to make us think will work actually does end up working, and we can actually have DI dual turbo 1.8 I-4s producing more than 240 hp/200tq and still getting more than 40 mpg highway. we will see. that being said, under current market circumstances, my plans would work.

no, it's definitely relevant. a successful execution of a multi-brand strategy is what we're discussing here. his point was toyota has more brands in japan and handles less volume than GM in America..... no, the problem is not the number of brands. it's been the execution. hummer and Cadillac may compete in a similar price class, but they offer a complete different style and focus, Hummer is ideally focused to off-road and Cadillac is focused to technology/luxury. Similar to Audi and VW offer markedly similar cars and many times competing in price, they offer different styles and 'raison d'etre'....perception wise they are going after a differently minded consumer. Dell has a number of different laptops, in some cases competing with each other for pricing, however each distinct line goes after a different consumer. The bigger cheaper Inspiron goes after light use consumer, XPS goes after more hardcore, etc. you get the point.

exactly. though the only disappointing bit for me of the BRX/Provoq have been the FWD proportions that give the front end a short hooded stance. This hurts the Land Rover LR4 in appearance just as it will hurt the BRX in appearing substantial and powerful, something a luxury car should always say imo.

GM's complete and appalling failure with product startegy, there really aren't enough negative words to express how wrong they've gotten it on so many occassion. This is exactly the reason all the waffling currently going on with Zeta boils my blodd literally. Zeta could have been the lynchpin for a truly upscale market of cars to be released at GM. Remember the Velite? Boy it's been a long time since anyone here uttered the name of this fabulous car. The Velite was a 35,000-45,000 Buick that would have created an aura of luxury, refinement, sophistication, class, luxury at Buick like no other car has done for them in a long time. The accompanying sedan could have been Buick's low volume high priced answer to the LS460. Think 40k-50k. The Epsilon LAcrosse would have had room to compete with the ES 350 on even ground, going from 29k-44k. An open spot would have existed for a small coupe and sedan with the right sporting missions to attract youth. Pontiac could have a G8, G8 coupe, G8 wagon, G8 sport truck. OMG, all of a sudden Pontiac would have a wonderful, huge lineup, that would create buzz on its own and not need much advertising and of course the product investment is nearly paid for at Holden. They could have a mass market, volume G6 based on Alpha, call it Ventura/Tempest, whatever. Basically a car sized like the last Grand Am, with better space utilization, having 4 cylind turbos as the high end engines, and potentially a high end V6 turbo as the only V6 engine offered as a 'sport' model for around $40k. This would be an ultimate Pontiac, similar to how a Lancer Evolution is an ultimate Mitsubishi Lancer, except an investment in more expensive raw materials to build the car would pay off in exclusivity along with actual performance. Pontiac could then have a performance coupe, based on Gamma or Delta, just a 2 door coupe, similar to the Fiero concept, but with a small backseat, like a favorite of mine, the Acura RSX. If I can sit here and write a winning stategy on paper that requires little work and is based on existing platforms or platforms in development, why the F$%^ is it so hard for GM to do? What are they, mentally retarded? The market is being stolen from right underneath them, and I agree with enzl, the lot of them should be fired!

I hope GM management either fully understands the issues being presented in this thread or is reading here. This is all great stuff coming here, all from the crowd in favor of information as opposed to 'misinformaiton'. thegriffon made points I can't help but say could have come directly from my own mouth. I fully agree 100% and who couldn't with the idea that GM's product strategy seems like the results of drunk idiots or mentally impaired or miserable arrogant know-it-alls in the middle of the country. This is wonderful discourse where inherently GM could chime in, show us somehow they are listening and understand all the points we are making, beginning with what choices they are going to be making to improve product strategy, ultimately the only hope they'll have of gaining share is through imporving product, and the compeititon is moving at warpspeed with thier new product. What would it hurt for GM to chime in at a local board that rarely gets press, and even if it came to anyone else's attention, the resultant discourse could be nothing but good for GM. We are knowledgable here, and now would be a good time to address not only shareholders, but the public at large, what do you plan to do with the company planning you've inherited in your positions? I completely agree with thegriffon on his points on Lambda, Trailblazer, G8 v. Malibu fuel economy, Buick's lineup, Pontiac's lineup, and the point about retail sales at Pontiac. It still is a brand people are willing to consider, if only the right product were there.

Blazer. a very cool name imo.

is it only obvious to me I didn't mean that? Buick still would have to be cool to the masses, similar to how Porsche and BMW is cool and desirable yet unattainable[except loyal diehard domestic car fans] for the masses.

the other details though point to a more expensive and less basic Cadillac CTS. which is nothing but a good thing for Cadillac.

if you take brand value out of the question. the notion that BMW will sink into the ground because Pontiac released a better 5-series is not very well thought out. BMW is an image. of sophistication, of performance, of stature. And Pontiac is not. Side note: who ever said G8 was better looking? They're both saying different things, and both good looking. They both have a technical approach to things, both opt for sophistication and subtlety with style, but the G8 is more mass market. The details in the 5-series, well from what I've seen in pictures of the G8, still amount to a more expensive looking car by means of flash and complexity. Pontiac v. Ford is even ground. Mustang is a hot property and GTO definitely had/has name equity. Which has more is always left up to the product. Simply put, the Mustang was a much better concept execution of what a Mustang should be. GTO, well, wasn't a monster performance coupe, at least from the looks of it. It was refined, handsome with a conservative tone, very un-flashy, subtle, quiet. The Monaro coupe was a great car but not a great execution of the GTO formula.

it still remains to be seen if they can conquer a market outside the crossover field. this is a new, hot market with not as many entries and GM has a good grip on what it needs to with trucks. it's the cars they constantly fail at. the question remains can Buick develop product that can show it still has relevance to the market, all the while conquering new market segments, entirely new groups of people that have never dreamed of owning a Buick. it's a tall order, but certainly not insurmountable. the key is the product. with all the zeta cancellations, and the fact that many GM models still are value priced, I'm starting to beleive GM doesn't even believe in itself.

I still think the H2 style wise is pretty cool. It's a Hot Wheels car for 21st century. I don't think it's a design that will age terribly. In fact it still is pretty cool going down the road, though its effect is so common here it's a non-event. The execution of the concept is all wrong. There should be a more efficient way of tackling all of that vehicle's purposes and packaging them. It's horrendously packaged, and of course most of the execution in terms of quality/refinement leaves a bad taste. I would say about the only place it feels expensive/high line is the outside, though that needs updating too. The new Hx and H3 will fill the product vaccum well. Chief among priorities should be building a bigger platform than H3 that can offer a high line package while managing more efficiency, and live to a true heritage of being an off-road wonder. Hummer's lineup would then parallel Land Rover, with 2 medium large Suvs, one reasonably priced and the other exclusive and high end, and one compact. I agree with those that believe Land Rover does a much better job at reaching the market and building this theme.

the others are merely vaporware, products on a computer. give me approval program codes and we'll talk done deals. the Lambda will sell no more than 40-50k units/year, hardly a mass volume car. I guess you could call LAx a volume car, but Epsilon volumes could be absorbed elsewhere. Not to mention, Saab and Saturn even will encroach on the very market Buick seeks to appeal to. The Zeta Lucerne was presumably going to be the high volume product, unless LAx is where they were going to go for high volume.

I don't mean it in that context though. Wipe that out of your head for a moment. Off the top of my head, the only market Buick has a great chance of converting are boomers. Youth don't really have a favorable view of the brand, though they are open to cool, unique and new; it would have to take a car with style like Riviera only tranposed maybe to a fresher concept for a car. The two door luxury coupe high on style is an idea that has been done again and again successfully. The same can be said of an entry level luxury car, which is what presumably Lacrosse is heading for, though maybe with slightly lower pricing than traditionally [starting at 27k?]. The point of what I was trying to say is who are you gonna market Buick to? and do they even care? who potentially can it be relevant to at this point? Does Enclave prove it can have relevance, or is it that Enclave hit a burgeoning market with the right combo of ingredients? I guess the answer is maybe not at this point, but down the line potentially it could be [relevant] with the right product.

you don't have to defend youself from baseless claims. The Enclave is a terrific product that demonstrably shows product and investment are king when recreating a brand. Personally, the big Buick's style isn't nearly perfect, but the concept is undeniably a solid homerun. And the fact that it doesn't outperform the CX-9 is a matter of preference. Some people are okay with the fact that the steering isn't as tight, the handling doesn't feel as nimble, etc as the CX-9. Some people prefer the bold, classy, expressiveness, less Japanese robot look of the Enclave. Some people prefer luxury. Sales-wise, market-wise, the Enclave works in areas the CX-9 does not; i.e. solid comfort, engine performance/efficiency, but most importantly big classy bold style [that needs some refining in my book, but works nonetheless]. That's why it's a sales winner. That fact needs no defense in any book. It sells well and GM is making bank off LAmbda. That being said, there are improvements that certifiably need to be made, chief among them is lose the pork. The other products in the future pipeline don't look so promising......cause they're not out yet! EVeryday Buick is still the old brand with nothing good is damaging. But oh well, GM takes its damn time doing everything. We will see what will become of Buick, but so long as you believe the best product is coming, you need not defend something that exists to insiders only and not the general public. WE shall wait and see how the general public responds to a revitalized Buick, when all is said and done that's what counts.

It was only a matter of time. Is this why killing Zeta and approving Alpha suddenly became top priority? Alpha would allow Holden a smaller mainstream car [and of course brings them into the fold which PCS is so fond of, even at the cost of fantastic Holden engineering], gives Cadillac the entry lux sedan they've always needed, and could supply Europe with some product. Meanwhile, death to Zeta also means death the Pontiac and Buick, since Zeta is basically a lynchpin for Buick and Pontiac; the only product bases they were going to have. Though with recent discussion for a small Buick, and China's affinity, it doens't seem likely. If they're going to clean house and lose the market share along with market burdens of Pontiac, I say may as well rid themsevles of Buick too; I believe in a product revival that GM doesn't have the guts to make, and Buick is far beyond relevant here at this point. Only a truly phoenix-like product rebirth would do to regain interest in Buick for the masses, but the name "Buick" already has such sorry connotations, more than Pontiac I would say. I could see Buick surviving in China and not in America, wouldn't that be ironic?