turbo200

compare the GMC Denali XT styling to the styling of the Lacrosse/Lucerne and you have what amounts to a sea of difference only explainable by saying the new GM is a completely different company. And it is. In actuality though, that is in the literal sense, since Denali XT was designed by none other than Holden! And there are still proponents within GM against the formidable talent that is Holden.

are you listening, GM? BTW, modding the 'truck' with great looking 22' wheels and some tasteful ground effects, as well as lowering it, would help enforce the message that this is a performance car with utility. That is all this is. No truck. And that's the way it needs to be marketed. It's a performance coupe with utility. And once again I'll ask, are you listening GM? they should really pay me for this stuff. EDIT: one more final point to strengthen my argument. SSR sold only on its looks. This was its appeal, and that hardtop that also made the truck look cool. It actually looked better with the top up. In any case, this is a study of design appeal. So it's kind of apples to apples with the G8 ST. The ST offers overall less unique looks, less immediately relatable and identifiable looks. Its less unique. But by nature, a car that's shaped like a pickup is gonna look unique, and the G8 is a good looking car to begin with. Mate that with those precious wheels I've been talking about and boom you have a winner. Beyond that though, looking at the facts, the ST offers useable performance, it can actually compete with real performance cars of the world. It also is $10k cheaper. Now mate all those facts with this: SSR managed to sell more than 10k/year. Yes, in the end they were hugely discounted, and yes they added power to try and move it. How many people actually cared or knew they added power? Not many. This was just an attempt by GM to garner enthusiasm, but enthusiasts don't make a popular seller. But in the beginning not only were they hot, there were ridiculous markups. This ultimately hurt the SSR, as well as the fact that it was a weekend toy because of sacrificed utility and that it offered a distinctly un-"perfomance car" performance.

that was the first here's the second. I'm referencing Delorenzo's offense against the ST; one of his core arguments was the lessons learned from little fanfare for SSR or Subaru Baja. I really didn't bother to read the rest of his argument since I felt those were weak intro points. so here's my second post: Just to inject some reason in that above argument from Delorenzo.....SSR actually did quite well with a certain demographic, wealthy, priveleged guys looking for a weekend toy. SSR was also priced at $42k, at least 10k more than where the ST V8 will be at. SSR had ridiculous markups and was not a performance car. Subaru Baja was ugly, misguided and didn't have an audience segment clearly in its crosshairs. The overall design appealed to women with its soft stance and conservative demeanor, yet it was a pickup and pickups by nature are blunt and rough, two features that don't appeal to women. The design of the Baja appealed to conservative moms, and conservative moms want to be seen in a wagon or crossover SUV. Baja offered no performance. Any analyst worth his/her salt knows the ST is completely different from these two cars in that offers something niche audiences are looking for all the time: unique looks and crazy performance. There is a clear audience segment ST appeals to in my mind: GUYS. Young and old, especially young. GM HAS TO CAPITALIZE ON THIS APPEAL BY RELEASE MODDED SPECIAL EDITIONS, even if they're only specifically intended to increase the appeal at auto shows. This must happen to help capture attention. OH, and hurry up with the damn thing already. No reason it shouldn't be here in a couple months, meanwhile gas isn't stratospheric.

okay, so the topic of whether it should be sold here or not isn't going to die down quickly. I just made two important points at CZ28, so I'm gonna post them here: Pretend the El Camino never existed for a moment and now judge the car on its characteristics. Is there any reason why this car can't sell 10-15k units a year? Remember the burgeoning youth market, 20-30 year olds with big pockets looking for unique expression and performance. Also the fact exists that many performance car owners also have a pickup in thier garage for the small waverunner they need towed, for the occasional trip to Home Depot. There will barely be any to make a dent on Pontiac's image. But I can just image what a modded Pontiac G8 ST looks like, and if Pontiac can put an emphasis on making spectacular looking versions at the auto show circuits, with mods, like Scion does, this will ultiamtely help Pontiac's image, especially among young people. The thing is this is a strong performance statement, and in the tours around the country auto show citcuits, GM must not fail to capitalize on this and build cars that LOOK like they perform as crazy as they do. They must release as many strong, aggressive, yet tastefully modded STs to the public as possible. This will be a great way of garnering the right kind of attention. With the right mods, this car will look killer. Judge the car for its merits and not on the past. this is actually a strong performing, great handling, quality feeling car, unlike the Aztek and Torrent that came before it.

I think, I think GM will not be stupid and gauge just one barometer of public opinion, in this case the blogs. In person, GM's designs, a lot of them, just one is the Silverado [almost universally maligned on blogs, but then really well liked after time], have proven to be more likeable and enduring. Soooooo, I would venture to say a lot of people online are being (a) close-minded and (b) can't really see the vehicle, can't accurately picture the real world version of it, as opposed to a tiny picture standing in front of them. No doubt cars like the H3 and H2 for example, don't work all that well, don't boil people's emotions quite like they do in person. This is true of many and most car designs. Design in general is better appreciated in person than in photograph. Who would you find hotter, Angelina Jolie in one vibrant pose or Angelina Jolie in person with a lifetime unlimited range of expression and appeal?

upcoming concept should be production under disguise of better trim. hopefully the changes will be handled delicately this time. Invicta has me excited. I agree with Invictman, this car helps give substance to the Buick lineup, adding a smaller Regal on Alpha or Delta II and then a midsize crossover the size of the Lexus RX, offering a third row, in the price range of $29k-42k, would be cool for Buick imo. Have the royalty on top, a Park Ave/Roadmaster/whatever priced 40-50k offering size and features similar to Lexus LS, offer a full sized coupe as a luxury CL competitor....and boom you have an aspirational luxury lineup. This plan also allows the next Enclave to redefine the people-mover concept, morph into something more like the Centieme and less like the 3 other Lambdas, as well as move up in price and quality, range of $45k-60k.

Saab is a very distinctive entity within GM. They have a design asthetic for smooth contours, subtle movements, timeless features, simplicity, minimalist design. They definitely appeal to a buyer most GM cars do not, I'd say 95% of the buyers of GM cars are different from Saab buyers. I could say Tahoe and Suburban probably along with some GMC pacakges draw the same kind of buyers. These are upscale buyers, who want something classy, classic, and enduring. The 9-3 is still one of the best looking designs in GM's catalog, imo. I still turn my head when I see an Aero of the pre-refresh. The refresh exemplifies how much Saab is capable of with so little resources, and is already one of the best looking sedans in its class, to me. I would rock it. They need a more focused theme. Going after AWD buyers/Subaru type vehicles is one path they could take. I think the Aero X exemplifies Saab for me: cool, exclusive, unique, some quirks and sacrifices involved in owning them, performance-minded. They have a design language that is distinct and is very good. Around Beverly Hills you see plenty of retail owned Saabs, not as many CTSs. I just saw 4 new 9-3s in the past few days, only one new CTS. The new CTS is doing really poorly in LA. It says something, that's for sure.

Not to pile on anymore, but this is also infactual. The two cars had nothing to do with one another, this was back before GM had the strategy of a veiled 'concept' points to the future production car. The strategy then was to show design cues that would be used in the future on radical extreme attention-getting concepts [see Chevy Traverse---Malibu Maxx] that they thought would help create attention for the various brands in the media at auto circuits. The two cars were completely unrelated to one another, one can surmise GM used the Lacrosse name on the production car due to the extreme popularity of the concept car of the same name. LAcrosse production and concept car have about the same amount in common as does the Lucerne and the Wildcate concept of later years, absolutely none.

GM and the United States government. Indeed, there is very much in common seemingly in thier practices.

I like murano, G35/G37, FX update, the mini FX, the skyline GTR is beautiful, the 350z updates were meaningful and added to a look that has worn very well over the years, and the altima and altima coupe. I think the altima and rogue were given the least effort, and now comes this. The wheelwell issue was the first thing to jump out at me, that's an old GM syndrome that I thought we would never again see. It's not that I hate it, it's decent but nothing original. I actually prefer the everyday streamlined look of the MKS to this.

porquoi pas?! Je n'ai parle pas de l'auto, le nom solement! [terrible French grammar and spelling at its best]

I'm not sure if this was confirmed today or recently like in the last couple of days. This is basically what we've known could happen for a while. It's yet another confirmation that GM has decided to continue its strategy of offering a bigger car for less dollars. It's pitiful if you ask me. The CTS won't command 5-series starting prices, because (a) the 5-series is a BMW built on decades of legacy and image and (b) the CTS just doesn't match up with the 5-series in some regards. You don't have to command BMW prices to be a true competitor to BMW. This is the mistake that was made with the STS. Cadillac thought it would just price the STS really exclusively and all the BMW buyers would buy into it. But the STS wasn't enough car. And Cadillac just doesn't have the mystique BMW does, yet. It won't until it starts producing cars on the level of BMW, consecutively. Lexus don't try to outprice BMW, oh no no no, and Audi don't. MB is MB, they can get away with it. That doesn't mean offering 'more car for your dollar' is the right strategy. Yes, many people bought the CTS for its roominess, but there were several other reasons to thier purchase, and there's no reason to beleive those same buyers wouldn't pay 5k more if the quality were there.

Well Pontiac has historically done well with sedans, both Gran Prix and Grand Am were popular sellers, especially upon intro. So its seems thier styling has appeal and draws in early adopters, the cars then endure with some of those same fans, but as the years go on more and more are being fleeted to maintain the figures, but it's probably because the mechanicals and designing of components [like a high quality interior] just weren't there in relation to the competition. Pontiac has never had the advantage of selling a car that quality wise you could say lives up to the competitors [aside from Solstice for a short while and GTO]. This car offers roomy, comforting accomodations, better styling, much better proportions to give the impression of a modern quality car, classy trimmings inside and out, and actual performance to accompany a ballsy exterior. Based on that logic, it's entirely feasible that the 40k or so retail buyers duped into the Gran Prix at average transaction prices between 23k-25k, realistically those same buyers will be interested in paying a couple thousand more for the V6 G8. To stand apart from the crowd. Pontiac has traditionally done well with bold styling. [this was one thing the bouncing heads at GM could figure out, that's why as the years went on in the late '90's, the styling got wilder and wilder.] It's just been raped of good product. So, if you think of it as an update to the Gran Prix, you'd be right on target. The Gran Prix pricing is reflected in the G8, just that there is no super duper low cost Malibu-priced Gran Prix now. And you can assume the G8 will attract a lot more, diversified buyers than the Gran Prix ever did, because it's not just a deal, it actually makes sense to make it your own. Tit for tat, the G8 versus the competition offers, stand apart styling [for the price class], high quality interior ambience/trimmings, no foul balls no ill conceived proportions or interior panels [guys step back and remember what kind of a laughinstock of a car this G8 replaces, this a serious car, not some Bugs Bunny joke], similar pricing, competitive engine performance [despite smk's repeated efforts to espouse 0-60 religion on us, it's not gonna fly, not everybody lives by the clock], and superb driving dynamics. It will sell. A 3.2 DI or 2.8 DI turbo with better fuel economy would be even nicer, imo.

je n'ai pas de probleme avec les noms francais, mais Lacrosse c'est merde there you go Invicta makes a great name for this Buick. Buick is one of those GM brands where the names aren't tarnished, it's just the image has permeated thanks to super conservative dour product that it's for old people exclusively. it's due time they undergo a remake.

judging from the photos above it is clear they are one and the same. check the width of the C pillar, slope of A pillar, and overall length of the stretch of the greenhouse. does have a coupe profile, it reminds me of the first gen Aurora with the severely sloped rear window, chopped rear door glass and truncated rear deck, not a bad place to be at style-wise.

I love the Z4 coupe, and M coupe, they are just my kind of car and they look so good and so sporty and so small and crazy, and that is so me. And this is definitely a great alternative to them. This revitalizes the lower half of the bodylines thanks to really attractive roofline. Wonder why they decided to go with the spoiler? Love the wheels, love the rear window, and you just gotta love the idea of newfound practicality for Solstice, a coupe- look and an open-air experience. Certainly a unique car that serves an underserved segment. This will help keep the buzz at Pontiac for the show. Now if only they had updated the interior as well. But we can only ask for so much . the price will be good on this one regardless, there should be lines for this.

ah, yes 'mind-boggling' this is why it was ringing in my mind as really strong descriptive. thanks

well well that means we will see a production Riviera this years, based on EP II. good to hear, right after I was having the thought actually

the fabulous Buicks should be part of thier display everywhere they go. they evoke luxury, timelessness, class..........this is what Buick's stand should be all about at the auto shows. More to the point, GM's conceptualization for thier auto stands, from what I saw at the LA auto show, is poor in general. Having more elements present that reinforce the ideas behind the brand would help thier cause. Pure elegance is the feeling I get from those shots above. The Riv's interior never fails to impress, that's a great looking car, and needs to come out soon. Question for Z: what did Dave have to say about C&G?

designers these days all struggling to make the same impressions, aggressive from the front, refined from the back. Sooner than later there will be a new fad and not everyone will be going for aggressive, in your face personality. you can express tension in the lines without going for an aggressive expression, but that's where every single automaker is at right now, well maybe not every brand. Ford is still soft, Chevy is friendly and strong, but seemingly every brand these days, the character they want to give off is strength, aggression, confidence.......and then they all finish it off with the sophisticated/classy/timeless Euro rear end.....will this become a staple and become overused? this car is pretty bad. I agree that its disorganized. That's a shame because of all of Nissans recently introd designs, there hasn't been one I don't like, now comes this.

for one, EP II Lacrosse will be big, full size even, it's on the long wheel-base version of Epsilon II. Why would GM show a concept version of the Lucerne replacement, when that car when it was scheduled to be released in 2010-2011 timeframe, so we would have another situation like the Camaro and Solstice. Currently, there hasn't been any confirmation that the Lucerne Zeta is still even on, but there has been talks that both the Cadillac Zeta and Buick Zeta are questionable. The Zeta Buick in China is already out, and it's not doing well, at all. That doesn't mean their won't be another one coming, but it's yet another reason why this car is EP II and not Zeta. GM as of late previews most of thier production cars with concept cars, this is pretty common practice for them; CT coupe, BRX, 9-4x, 9-1 Biohybrid, Flextreme previewing Astra, and we'll have an Insignia concept soon etc etc. They do this all the time and it's global! and they try to stick to a formula of concept car one year before production car. I don't see any new Buick sedan coming out next year except EP II. There's no doubt in my mind this is EP II. Furthermore, even Welburn's comments from wildcat that he would like to see coupe and sedan. We've already seen a coupe on EP II, Riviera and Opel GTC, it's definitely being set up to support coupes, Buick can support a 'full-size' luxury coupe like the Riviera in China based on its emerging middle class. Even though it has the Hofmeister kink of BMW that is also used with the G8, this is simply a really commonly used styling cue. I have no qualms with the spy shots, they showed nothing, and could have been covered with rough panels to blur out the lines. Remember, Lutz said this car was "amazing" or "phenomonal", he used a really strong word to support it.

that's definitely the Lacrosse. check the second statement in that press release, direct from Buick China, it's "a premium vehicle with internation appeal." Of course they're going to be blunt with you, they are proud of thier baby. and the fact that it will be sold in America, and likely going to be popular, or at least in thier minds so far. Amazing that it's being called Invicta, I'm pretty sure I remember thegriffon saying the new EP II Buick won't be called Lacrosse and it won't be called Regal. So this is definitely the new name. And it wouldn't be a fullsize Buick Zeta, too early, China already has the Park Ave, and that one isn't doing so well over there. So it's definitely the next Lacrosse being revealed very soon!

eh. gramps drives like a gramps, that's why he owns an Avalon. I dust him in my hybrid, in fact with gas prices and traffic the way it is today, I usually dust most people, bent on being conservative. but that's neither here nor there. I don't think it meaningless when more than half of LA's roads are of the twisting kind. It's ultimately in the hands of the driver, and thier own psychology, what they like to do while they drive. I have a good time in my hybrid, and I do it in the confines of safe driving in heavy traffic conditions. [Of course there are those tortorous drives where and stop and go feels like it should be a system automatically programmed into your car]. Of course buying decisions are heavily based on perception. The Avalon buyer will think he's making a safe, economical, reliable choice. The G8 buyers will think he's buying the extrovert, the looker, the performance car. I disagree with your stance. Athletic is a sense you get from a car's design to its innards, just like luxurious is a sense you get from a car. It all depends on what defines you most that attracts you to the car. Design is the first indicator of this trait, and the drive completes it. Example: salesman A says you want luxury sir? let's go look at this large, comfortable Lexus LS sedan that imparts luxury and expense.

precisely, the G8 is athletic in a way no Avalon can claim. the virtue in its balance and good looks along are enough to sway this buyer. I was never and will never be in the avalon target audience though.

Hyundai and Pontiac are in different positions image-wise. Hyundai has been a bargain basement brand and has never escaped that brand, its designs only enforce this. they have no consistent strong design theme, except that they look flimsy, Asian, and generic. Perceived quality has always been poor.Then you have actual reliability, and in this area they are still dogs. All the surveys except maybe short term surveys, show them consistently scoring near the bottom, and I think the general perception continues that they are not reliable, though this has obviously dramatically increased over the years. Pontiac is in a completely different place. They have a history here and are revered by few for that reason and a sort of laughingstock for others because of that reason. They are the butt of jokes because their cars are cheesy and camp, despite being American and having that inherent advantage of being once embroiled in our culture. They are not looked at as cheaply as Hyundai by many, and yet most Americans consider them tacky and completely ill-concieved, but that doesn't have to do with reliability. As a whole, I don't think it's a stigma of unreliability that's hurting them. It's true that many have had bad experience with GM and Pontiac and there are those who won't ever consider the brand, but I believe the number of people who look at them and think they are just cheap/tacky is greater. This is a design issue, not engineering. of course the powertrain/suspension/steering choices have also been poor in the past, and this contributed to an overall "American cars are unfinished" image.