turbo200

oh definitely. it made a strong statement, a very unique one. It's a car that's both handsome and refined/sophisticated with certain trim. So it appeals to the spectrum, those looking for a bad ass and those looking for pure grace. Inside and out it was a homerun. And the cheaper part was a big deal as well. Pound for pound, idea for idea, valet curb to cool club doorstep [insert trendy cliche], the Mustang was more car for your money. It was and is just cooler.

Saab is the only brand in GM's cap whose styling is progressive and yet considerably tasteful and refined. It wears incredibly well down the line. The current 9-3, pre-refresh is still to me one of the best looking sedans out there, and the refreshed version is already starting to sell around here. It's amazing to me all the talent that is evident in thier design concepts, yet none has resulted in anything production-worthy. I think Saab will be a surprise hit down the line, when good product is actually released. Thanks to its great longevity and progressive nature, I think Saab is GM's best chance of going after some of the bigger Euro makes.

It's just that iny experience, it was my own poor usage and understanding of the CVT transmission and the hybrid powertrain that resulted in under 40's mpg. Now, I drive it like I stole it, and regularly pull 42 mpg, average. This is with stiff, treacherous LA traffic, where hard braking is something to get used to, you're always running into reasons to stop. This is why I refuse to accept that it's the hybrid tech and not the driver's fault. I don't think I"m going out on a limb here saying a lot of people could use pointers on how to most efficiently and judiciously use acceleration. I just got off the freeway, was driving 78, my instant mpg readout was giving me 70-80, consistently.

I'm assuming no DI because of where the car is assembled. GM must not be giving Holden DI engines for thier cars yet. 256 hp is definitely enough. the hp wars are crazy in my book. 300 hp with equal or better gas mileage is without a doubt fantastic. BUT, if you're just looking at hp, 256 is more than enough. this is a whole pissing war/grass is greaner on the other side issue. 300 hp without a hot wife still only nets 300 hp, net gain not much additional happiness.

which is what most people want. no, actually, the highest selling models are probably loaded 4 cylinder models, from my experience with selling Hondas anywaysd. that kind of deal isn't good for anyone's business. people already know the camry is a solid car, and they like it even. it definitely hurts Chevy, honda, and every other midsize around. which is why we see crazy deals here for all the midsizers...

unless you're basing this on personal experience of owning the car, I can't say you know what you're talking about. my own experience with my hybrid is drive it hard drive it soft, it'll return the same. and actually the best way to drive it is accelerate strongly to a point and then stay firm and let the CVT and hybrid system do the rest. I can't tell you how good my mileage would be if I could just get to 50 or 70 and not have to stop constantly because of traffic in front of me. But the reality is, from my experience, you can achieve the numbers they are claiming. I have been on pleny of drives where I averaged much more than the EPA estimates, I mean sometimes as much as 65-70 mpgs, of course this is with perfect traffic conditions. Even with that, GM is nowhere near a 45-50 mpg car either.

without reading the comments in this thread, my question which may have already been asked is this : is this GM merely catching up. Prius has already offered 50 mpg for 4 years, and GM is nowhere near that. The next Prius will almost certainly improve on this. Where is GM? Behind as usual.

it looks to be based off the Flextreme concept, which I love so much and would love to own. That car is seriously hot, slick, and better proportioned than the Golf while managing to look more elegant than the Audi A3.

that means they are trying to make all the money and more; fooling people into thinking the car is more expensive than it is since thier's no advertising for it anymore. Pontiac dealers possibly wouldn't do these insane markups every five years they get one good model if they weren't so product starved. Of all the brands, Pontiac has been starved like no other. I also agree with you Northie that the GTO wasn't a flop. For a Pontiac to have relevance in Los Angeles is a huge prize. LA moves in fashion trends like maybe only New York, Paris, and potentially Miami and a couple other cities throughout the world not in the US. The problem with GTO was not anything related to being a Pontiac, the biggest issue was the statement it was making design wise wasn't relevant or groundbreaking when it was released. It's not a bad looking car in anyway though.

it sucks how when you finally talk to them all you can think about is how intensely you feel about this person, you want to scream it to thier face, and all you can think about inside is when is this going to get to the place I've already fantasized about. but both you and reg got it right. if you use this to develop your friendship and understand the fact that you are dealing with a person not some object to have fun with, get off with, then you will have much luck in relationships, and eventually marriage.

it was probably your driving. hybrids are not all the same nature obviously, but I have friends who own a Prius here, face the worst traffic and also do plenty of general driving, and thier average is more like 42 mpg. in better commutes thier averages have gone above 50 mpg. My average highest has been 45, but it can dip as low as 39, however that is mostly because I usually drive like I really want to get somewhere, unless there are those days where I like to just take it easy [once a month], and I am everyday in the worst kinds of traffic, but not for extended periods of time, more than 1 hour.

Given GM's historice stance, I doubt we will see a significant reengineering of any of thier platforms to incorporate statisically and technically superior BMW engines. I don't know what this is about but I sure hope it means a synergy is in the works between them, GM could benefit, but where's BMW's benefit? Maybe GM will give them Pontiac?

going on with what I just said and tying it in to the original idea of this thread. this a lot of times goes back, well attraction exists for everybody, male to male, female to female. People are drawn to one another regardless of gender. This just happens. Men are drawn to alpha males, and this is how leaders are born. The stronger males, more powerful by nature by mannerism captivate the others and they all follow. Hopefully that person has the right things going on in them and is able to help the others become the best version of themselves through leadership. With women it's exactly the same, only the role is reversed. there is no such thing as the typical alpha woman, that applies to males who want to teach and guide in everything and have thier opinions heard. the woman that draws attention is the one again with attractive qualities, qualities that males find appealing as well. she can listen, she can talk about fun things, she can turn the energy up, she knows how to hold her body well to keep things looking super attractive [ah the woman shape], and most of all she knows how to draw people through her openness. she seems to welcome you in and make everything at ease. Anywho, I'm not trying to explain away all attractions within gender, just trying to give some perspective and say that there is definitely aspects of the personality and the person more to the point that appeal and draw people in, and that doesn't necessarily mean everyone who has these feelings is automatically gay or even bisexual. mankind are meant to be friends. that's the way we're wired and it plays out in society.

this fails to recognize the "soul connection". a lot of people refuse to believe this exists, because they deny the power of the soul to attract on its own. it does, and this is part of the first thing inwardly we are reacting to on a subconscious level. inside there is a soul that immediately recognizes traits about other souls, like when you automatically can tell a girl is bitchy or a guy is cocky and arrogant, it's just there and much deeper than that simple explanation I just gave. The most powerful attachments I've felt to woman [and maybe a couple guys friends] goes far beyond thier looks, though this of course is part of the package and ultimately is a huge determinant in who gets my attraction. I can think of one recent instance where the connection was so powerful and palpable well we had trouble talking to one another, being around each other, the sexual tension was thick in the room. she ended up going off to college, I thought she might be too young for me, but I should have given her a shot there would have probably been plenty I liked.

notably absent are mindless enthusiasm and high fives. there must be some spiff/factory incentive or lease deal on Camry, because I am seeing them everywhere, new, these days, although that's nothing new really. 15,000 hybrid sales GM is missing out on. yep, just keep taking your time GM, we're all waiting for you to get there. when you do, we won't all have bought new cars already!

that made me LOL. I would say something encouraging, but I might be lying. Offensive as this may be, it's the reality. Obviously, though, there are core groups of buyers outside these three mentioned and the general trend is they are traditional buyers. in other words, young, wealthy, career professionals are looking elsewhere for thier favorite cars. GM has no way of appealing to this market right now, and won't until the right product is offered. It reminds me of a fantastic commercial by Audi showing a just out of college guy starting his career or graduating college and he's offered three choices, MB, BMW and Lexus as the traditional choices, then a rocking song comes on, the Audi appears and looks phenomonal. It's a great commercial that gets a great point across about Audi being a radical choice, and thier styling is already starting to reflect this and will enforce this even more as time goes on. Thier marketing is really starting to align with product, and will do so more in the future, but that's another issue for another day. The focus is on product here. With the right bold product, no one in my generation will look down on you. But you have to appeal to them and not be afraid to release the car in the first place. GM is still doing cars by committee, and has not figured out how to understand the younger generation that is open minded, looks at everything with fresh eyes, and is style and not price discriminating. Cars like the CTS, Enclave, Malibu are not risks imo, at all, they still have the committee feel to them. maybe malibu's interior is something they really went on a limb with. GM will have to release bold product if it wants to turn around thier brands. If it has any hope of coming around in the future and not being swallowed by the intense competition, it must not hold back from making head turning cars that appeal to all age groupgs, young people especially. It must not hold back sophistication either.

I also love the distinctness. what can I say about Saab man, if this car were on the road today, it'd be, to me, just about the best looking car, under 200k. The wheels are spectacular, as they were on the bigger coupe concept. The question is can they sustain this into production. How much of it is undoable? Where are all the complaints about the dual-tier dash? Oh, probably because it's a GM car you won't hear a peep here. As long as the performance and ride handling dynamics were right, I'd take this in a heartbeat, make mine with about 230 hp, weighing what my old RSX weighs, or at least the GTI. Match the GTI's performance and I'd say you have one killer app.

aww i love you guys! [internet love ] you guys are pretty cool, thanks for the support! I haven't done too much exciting things, though I did feel like I was gonna pass out on a morning hike. I'm debating about if I should go clubbing and maybe get a drink. I know I shouldn't debate, but I think I have some good reasons about it. We'll see, still have a few hours. And I promise you OC, we are gonna meet soon [maybe I can talk empowah into meeting us if he's not shy or thinks that's weird!] thanks again everybody. EDIT: the ones with the personal touches are the coolest, imo it's nice to know I'm liked and not everyone thinks I'm crazy

The Flextreme was a great looking concept, one of my recent favorites. I just love the flow and that everything works in concert. This Meriva is also good looking. [gotta show love for the Groove too!]

EP II sounds like it'll be a great platform, if GME can manage to keep the weight down, and this time actually build world-class handling into the foundation. [cue the tomatoes] The point is GM has a great platform to use, a great rolling prototype, a simple investment, and a dearth of good cars!@#@#@#$ Good cars! They just ain't got too many good concepts out there that wow the people. The people in the real world are being wowed and wowed over and over by the other carmakers.

That is unfortunate. If I was a dedicated auto analyst I'd have access to stats that could prove just how poorly GM has come to understand the car market in the US. Within the state of California, we must represent, IDK 15-20% of the total sales of the country. I see more new cars here daily then some people see yearly. there is an insatiable demand for cars with class, cars that look and feel expensive. market perception is the biggest issue here. If your Ipod isn't the coolest, newest Ipod, then you're SOL in the game of life. Essentially the shallowest of perceptions are the biggest here; evidently we live to impress upon one another our status. And if your car isn't cool and doesn't look good, then you are on the wrong side of the fence in the game of life. Los Angeles in particular is its own country, in terms of trends, in terms of general lifestyles, etc. In general, GM sells cars that are value leaders. They sell cars that are cheap, look cheap, and feel cheap. They are not highly regarded, and the people at the top of the food chain, don't care one lick about them, nor that they're American, nor that they're struggling to survive. People don't want their car to scream value leader. And they want thier car to be percieved as rich...not as rental car, cheap, tacky....uncouth. This car is nothing like that. The great thing is the American market is fickle and will look to any brand as a success story, as long as they can show they have it in them. Right now I am witnessing a proliferation again of the Audi brand. Infiniti is having great success with the G35/G37 despite not having another successful model except for the fashionable FX. Toyota has had a resurgance with the undeniably dignified/classy and substantial looking Camry. Ford has an Edge that is gaining popularity [while getting beaten up in every market except with the Mustang]. You get it. This is a cyclical business. And everyone's tastes/needs are different. Pontiac can release a car like this and gain real attention that everyone will laud. GTO was a failure because it's exterior failed to be fresh, excite, or scream anything except an audible, guttaral "whoop" that people walked on by as something that had already been said in the past. This will be another chance GM had to improve thier image that is still in the gutter because of a lack of cars that speak to the market. If they don't release this car, they are passing on a chance to greatly improve thier standing in the world.

time to theorize....going on the "deep waters" thought...BMW needs a manufacturer to be tied to so they can continue to sell cars in America, or they're going to have to do serious reductions in power, engine size, and sales of true luxury cars, i.e. cars other than 3-series. BMW is going to buy a major stake in GM, and GM vice-versa, basically calling it a merger to the press and for the sake of CAFE. BMW, however, remains a seperate entity, independant company, as does GM, with major technology sharing in the form of engines, suspension components, design houses even... How cool would that be? it'd be awesome, imo. Possible? not likely, but it's always nice to theorize at someone with a much better control and understanding of the European market to come in and take precedence over the incompetent heads at GME that can only figure out how to control 10% of the market with volume prices and 5 brands.

everyone says they can't and shouldn't do it and it's VW that does it, and if the estimates come true, the mileage factor will be major. liberal hollywood is not standing in the way of GM creating a hybrid with 50+mpg, and trust me nobody would hesitate to create a GM bandwagon in hollywood

So the real question is: is this a real shot in the arm for Pontiac and Zeta? or just another great idea passed on by the powers that be?

it's good looking with the G8 fascia, buuuuut I would raaaather see it with something original, dark, mean, mysterious, to start a new trend for Pontiac. something more tomorrow than yesterday, which is where this look for Pontiac has been. As for names, Moltar, would Pontiac Cialis suit you?