turbo200

well, no, but I am intrigued by it certainly. it goes along with the understanding of appeal to humans. I think i have a good understanding of it...

Character ["presence"] is historically what seperates design phases of different car companies. You can use the eyes, the mouth, the nose otherwise known collectively as the front fascia to emote different character. There is a subconscious human reaction, explainable through the understanding of human behavior, or anthropology, that dictates what our emotions are drawn to. Over the course of the century, there are pivotal vehicles that elicit extreme reactions, that ultimately lead to huge sales, that are testament to this. The original Mustang wasn't just a pretty body, but it had interesting character, a good quality, it was a handsome face, a look of discipline. A strong stout-hearted man. This was a car whose face many people of all different walks of life, no matter how developed, or undeveloped, could be attracted to. In that sense, we amplify our characteristics on cars. Today, so many automakers are going for the aggressive "look" it's getting tiring. Not because that look is unattractive, but because there is so much depth to the human soul that we can express on cars that can lead to great designs. Just look back at the '60's for inspiration and direction. It's this soul of the car that builds attraction, and is something that has escaped many car companies. It escaped the Lumina of the '90's, which was like an aunt that you didn't want to see necessarily, but she was always just too nice. The Silverado/Sub/Tahoe have always had great character, a sense of dignity, pride about them....that made them work. They looked stern and ready for action. Anywho. just thought i'd comment. There really is a different presence in between the Tahoe and the Yukon, and though it may be splitting hairs, it certainly causes some of us to be attracted to one and others of us to be attracted to the other.

you are being very trigger happy. as an anecdote, the LA area serves well since the market penetration here is deep, the TV stations serve over 30 million here [something much higher wouldn't surprise me]. Incentives on the edge are plentiful, always being advertised here. from my view the Edge is a popular product, but a Ford that is being pushed, and I don't know if that's necessary or if it's just what Ford thinks it must do to compete. in any view, that definitely means they're not selling full steam ahead. I don't see anything for Lambdas, for comparison.

people may cross shop, but the design of the Enclave is more exclusive than the Acadia and Traverse. The Acadia is more techy and rugged, more modern. The Enclave is a stylish wagon that looks classic. The Traverse looks for general purposes, practical, function over form not with an unappealing design. The Outlook is also for everyday purposes but with a distinct and appealing face. The one that least draws in unique customers is the Outlook, the others will be cross-shopped without a doubt. But the designs inherently appeal to different kinds of people looking for different things. That's why Ven is saying the RX buyers are drawn to the Enclave, because it looks like a luxury vehicle, and the others do not [though the Acadia has an expensive presence, and the rest certainly do not look cheap]. for example with me, I recognize the Enclave is very good looking and classy, but the Lambda for me would be the Acadia. There's a conservative tone, but strong and brusk, not bland at all while looking refined.

thanks OC, and you're absolutely right!

Ultimately for Saturn I think the Outlook may have been too big, for the time right now. They moved to far up the scale of large vehicles with it. I personally would have thought something XL-7 sized with a 3rd row, like the Captiva would have been better suited.

the problem is not with the proliferation of products off the same platform. Look at VW/Audi....they do a fantastic job of appealing and pitching the cars to a totally different clientele. Both the GTI/A3 are two of my favorite cars. Yet they are so distinct, in manner of interior decor, exterior dress, and most significantly pricing. Yet you can get a DSG on the GTI, the GTI does have a phenomonally appealing minimalist and high quality interior design/finish, and the GTI does reach into the lower end of A3 pricing. The A3 doesn't seem like it's all that much more car, but superficially it is. It's a classy look, the interior is miles ahead of many cars costing 20k more, the design is just so uniquely appealing compared to the GTI. They end up hitting very different notes and will sometimes compete for the same consumer, but ultimately will draw to different ends of the market spectrum. With regards to options, there are some high end features only available on the A3, like a dual panel moonroof, but a lot of the options are available on the GTI. That's the way you differentiate and satisfy all pools in the market with what is essentially the same car. I see a huge problem with pricing the Traverse the way they want to. It's already bigger and has a couple more features, definitely visually a nicer interior than Outlook. About the only compelling reason to choose the Saturn becomes the friendly dealer/service areas, if you can find one close to you. Aside from the Outlook though, the Traverse really won't be much different from the others, especially in content, since we know we can all count on Chevrolet being a bitch about getting all the features it wants, after all look at how Tahoe sells. So, no this isn't the way to go about platform engineering. It is a huge step in the right direction. Really is more than I was expecting. Product planning is hugely at fault here, and everywhere really. They underestimate Buick's brand name appeal. Buick has always been respectable sedans with a dignified presence. That said, they have been cheapened far too long. GMC can command luxury pricing, and they are showing they are, so perhaps going a little further with quality and asking for a few grand more wouldn't have hurt. In the development phase, anticipating the need for a Chevy verion would have guaranteed volume, and that means more potential for profit. Understanding that and putting more money towards weight savings measures would have guaranteed even more positive press and more successful product [success that isn't always measured in dollars and numbers]. I go back to my fanciful idea of introducing the Centieme and Graphyte, maybe with some changes to the exterior, though I still find them fitting to thier brand and seriously appealing. I know some of you rejected it, but at least the concept a truly high priced luxury vehicle from Buick as the Centieme seems more fathomable and truly the logical way of producing cars off a single platform. By luxury pricing I'm saying ~44k starting price for the Enclave...with a luxurious interior and engineering befitting this price point.

whether you believe this or not is beside the point. if CR had no cred nobody would buy them. clearly there is a fanbase that also reads and absorbs the car reviews, otherwise that issue would not sell and would have changed, maybe the editorial staff would have disbanded. but clearly there is a reader base that responds to CR's opinions and mostly agrees with them. And yes everyone else in the world has a brain like yours, capable of independant thinking, identifying emotional-based decisions and rational fact-based decisions [even if that part of their/your brain isn't always timely], and have the ability to hold different thoughts/ideas on the same subject. So no, not all of CR's readers are brainwashed, single-minded, lemmings being drawn to the slaughter. conversely, I'm sure many import fans think GM fans are single-minded lemmings.....

to add an extra analysis. I can see the market they were aiming for is well targeted with this vehicle. it's sort of elegant, very practical looking, and chique [sp?]. But it just missed the good looking boat. They were trying hard to incorporate new Chevy family cues and forgot to make it better resolved. With the time they had, they produced something strong and nice looking enough. I hope, majorly, that for the next generation GM spends time differentiating the Lambdas and offering truly unique missions. As it was they were unique, this just throws a wrench in the toilet.

Chevy's own Tahoe and Suburban are much better looking, even though this has a modern profile and more definition all around. I'm just not won over by the exterior. Seeing it now, I'm seeing a reality that this truck will proliferate and be everywhere. It will certainly eat the Outlook alive. The better looking Acadia will manage to hold its own. But they missed an opportunity here, seeing as it's going to be so popular. I would have preferred something....more original. Right now it's borrowing too many ideas from other crossovers. And what I really like about the existing trio is they really do look unique on the roads. This screams of already been there, done that. Aside from that, it just isn't all that handsome. It's nice, in a Toyota sort of way. The interior is extremely good. GM finally discovered the god that colors are. Good for them.

CR is just more positive exposure. They reach tons of people, usually those that are less about enthusiast rags. they don't find that they fit in with that crowd and either haven't discovered edmunds.com or use CR to supplement that type of info, or they have a long standing respect of the CR name. Regardless, this is nothing but good news when a detractor converts and actually gives this kind of praise. It must mean something is going right when the hardcorest of your critics suddenly does a complete 180 change.

you guys are forgetting that Saturn has nothing to complain about, they've received tons of product in the last two years. Astra is just icing on the cake. and the future one will be even better and higher volume thanks to being built here. Astra is also a quality product and fits into a move upmarket.

XB is doing extremely well over here. they seem commonplace already. I happen to really like it, I think the design is a homerun, though I don't know or care what the interior looks like. I think it's a compelling car, too. It's cheap, cheaper than the HHR, and yet probably offers similar cargo room, it's a nice drive and it has great fuel economy. It starts around what 14k-16? It's definitely better looking than Fit and has a real mystique about it. It's pretty cool and desirable. The TC really does look like a fun car. I don't think the performance quite matches up, but it's a really good looking car in fact. I wouldn't buy it over the competition because of performance, but if I could get its looks on a different car's chassis/powertrain I would love it. It's currently appealing to those who are young can afford it and want high style. The XD actually looks much better than before, especially with mods, which I guess is huge over here on Scion, especially, but not really where you guys are from. Though I don't know anything about its performance and quality...I would say they did a good job based on the unique look alone. I probably have a bias though, based on the LA show where there stand was just one of the best. The mods they had on the cars and the setup of the show was perfect for Scion and definitely attracted attention as well as thier market. They did an excellent job there, and so that's influencing my perception of them and thier marketing right now. EDIT: I think I'm looking for opportunities to post cause I love looking at my sig. Does anybody else?

it's missing that unmistakable classic Chevy feel, that simple, classy look present from the Tahoe to the Trailblazer. The rear is especially good looking, the interior looks very nice, but it doesn't do anything extra special, other than being nicely differentiated from the other Lamdas. I do wish they had taken a bit more time to make it fit the rest of the line better, as sometimes what's old is new again, and I kinda feel that way about Chevy truck design, it's rugged clean and classic [though it always has been, there's something about staying the same when everybody is moving forward that sometimes works very well]. Anyways, kudos for making it different from the other Lambdas, and the interior actually looks very pleasant.

it's gorgeous, alluring....it looks purposeful, strong, every line makes it so, a bold, necessary impact. i think one day we Americans [in general] will understand what makes these cars [hatchbacks specifically, Euro cars in general] so special is the fluidity of it all, it all fits in and looks right. It's oddly ironic that the headlights and front grille recall the Pontiac Gran Prix.

everybody here gets so antsy about Consumer Reports....they're really reporting mostly what everyone else has been saying over the years....only maybe to bigger extremes. they are reporting now that the CTS and Malibu design have been drastically improved, they are much more livable and therefore easy to recommend to live with daily. i don't see what's hard to agree with that, and why everybody's pants seem to combust at the mere mention of Consumer Reports here.

right, I think at the time there were articles written about the CTS that picked up on this internal designation, and so goes that readers came to think of it this way. I totally agree with others that this is way too long to wait for a coupe version of the CTS. it better have some kind of much differentiatied, sportier, suspension setup and maybe weigh less to make up for this wait.

nothing but good info here. I think the American public going into the next decade will have to be conditioned to accept all modes of differing displacements, sizes, types of engines, so I don't see why this wouldn't be a fantastic idea. I totally agree with your methodology of going beyond the call to really finally actually be ahead of the competition and prove you are a foward-thinking player instead of a follower. The issue with people here is that humanity as a whole creates affinities to something and then can't be told when they are wrong or that affinity is somehow flawed. they are backpedaling striving to defend the thing they put so much faith in, when to accept the flaw and move beyond it is really the better thing to do, you never know what you can achieve when you see the flaws and choose to improve on it. dwightlooi, great post.

First, critical praise from various sources who test many different cars for a living is usually a good barometer for the quality of a car. Second, and onto why I quoted you here, the problem is you're comparing a CR-V originally released in 2002 to the Nox, that was released in '05. Back in '02, the CR-V was pretty cutting edge and quality was good compared to the competition [remember the last Rav4, I don't want to] Compare the new gen CR-V, released in '06 as an '07MY, and it blows away the Nox in the quality department. Honda used to be about really basic, functional, practical vehicles that were incredibly reliable. That's changed with the new gen of products as they are seeking to be considered upmarket and fashionable.

that freakin youtube video is sweet. it looks gorgeous and the interior, man it is nice. It's so nice it's fab. The colors, the trim, the gauges, the detailing in the grille, the detailing everywhere on the exterior. I'm in love with a truck. Holden must stop teasing me with this level of execution if I'm never going to be able to see it on the road. For all the holden-haters out there, this proves why Holden is such a gem. [if in fact they produced this.] That truck, exactly the way it is, has got to be in production in the next 2 years, cost be damned, should serve as a highlight of the GMC truck line, and maybe with a price of $50k for the hybrid model fully decked out as is with all the trimming. [i don't mean to say hybrid shouldn't be available at a lower cost as well, it should.]

Toyota exec: "The bastards at GM did it again." Exec B: "What? What is this? [expresses incredulity] Let me look at it. What the f? They're clearly on a roll. Why can't we do this?" Exec A: "somethin something Japanese sensibilites something..." Exec B: "We Americans need to take it over. We haven't produced something this good looking........ever!?" It's funny how GM is always taking two steps forward, three steps backwards. This is cleary two giant steps forward, aggressive, trendy, modern, strong, and a great move putting it at GMC and making it Zeta. [by the way I think Zeta would be lightweight]. But how long will we have to wait for GM to make the move and put it on production where someone besides hardcore fans, car lovers, and the media will have a chance to gawk at it, and actually inject some profit and a good dose of solid reputation/admiration for the company. Meanwhile, we have products like the G8 sportwagon which would be a great rolling endorsement for Pontiac and GM, however limited, that would serve the purpose of building the GM brand, as something other than crap product. [i know lately the acceptance is getting better, but the word on the street takes a while to be communicated, and it's just not there yet.] The only thing I don't like is the head-on view reminds me too much of the SSR's proportions with different cues. It's a great looking truck, the profile, side view, rear profile are pretty, well, stunning. Blows away the Ridgeline.

with the volume they would be looking at with the G8 SW, there would be no reason to worry. acadia sells 8k in one month.

you know, I have a theory on the Accord. that's it really not doing all that well. we can all flip to toyota's board and see what the camry did for this month, so I don't need to before I post this, but I'm sure the comparison will show toy way ahead here, and really the accord should be at the pace of the camry, or almost there. i guess the camry hybrid sales should be accounted as some of the reason the camry is ahead, though. my theory has to do with this fact. honda has been advertising lease specials on the accord almost since the second or third month of intro. i didn't follow up and check what the sales were then, but obviously they were feeling the pressure from lease specials for the camry. honda just doesn't go around throwing incentives on every car... it took them two years to intro a lease incentive/rate special on the civic! I know cause I sold them, and for the time I worked for them there was never sales on them, it wasn't until i bought mine that the rate changed [i didn't qualify though because it's a hybrid]. the other reasoning for this is based purely on anecdotal evidence. i went to chicago over the holidays and saw none. exactly none. the malibu otoh i saw only 3 or 4. but that was no surprise as in late DEC they were still building up inventories, not the case with accord which honda being honda saw fit to supply plenty trim levels, etc. when i had left CA I was seeing almost none, in an area that obviously buys imports but also is big on new cars. now that i came back, mid jan, I've started seeing a lot more, but they're still not omni-present, like I felt the camry was just a few weeks after intro.

there's a lot i'd like to respond to in this thread. but my first question is, what technology can we expect to see in engines, besides the obvious DI and turbos. I just don't see with those two ingredients, based on current standards, how we can achieve the kind of numbers we're all dreaming of achieving.

as others have stated here, this really means nothing. the beauty in the pilot has never lied in its entirely cautious wrapper that tries for a little ruggedness and elegance at the same time; it's always been about the drive. drive one of these things, and like any honda it gets more entertaining at the limit. the harder you drive it the more sweetly the tranny responds, the more direct the steering feels the more in tune you feel to the road. the suspension stays the same sweetly compliant and painless. it feels light on its feet yet you can definitely feel a sense of the massive wagon behind you. that's the beauty behind honda. like others already stated. i just wish the wrappers were more intriguing and that the honda cues were updated, and that in some cases they looked for better compromises between form and function. other than that, honda has a perfect formula for making cars that I wish so badly GM would copy. Really it's a similar formula to BMW, engineer great road-holding capability in the car by perfecting the interaction with driving controls, have a disciplined sense of quality, leave no details unchecked, make the buyers feel special in the process....the steering in my car is fabulous [i rarely use this word, but it works here] it turns on when I want to do somehting special and stays nice and soft and easy, almost too easy when I'm just cruising. It's amazing how dialed-in my electric steering is....it feels great all the time, and absorbs my driving habits and adapts correctly.