turbo200

that's exactly the point for producing the G8 SW. setting aside all speculation of limited volume, GM may have the aura wagon which will cover the 25-30k market and the CTS wagon which will cover the 35k-50k market. I don't see how offering the G8 sportwagon at a $2000 premium over the sedan, for 29k-34k is going to hurt or step on anybody's toes. It would bring an incredibly unique and alluring proposition to BPG and perhaps funnel some consumers from Acadia who are more interested in cargo/flexibility/good looks and turned on by potentially higher mileage in the G8 and much greater performance.

he's right though. none of this proves that Japan builds as many bad vehicles as Detroit. that was your statement. and he's saying it's false.

the point is those wagons appeal to upscale buyers.....on the east coast, truly wealthy people....people GM has big problems appealing to. it's not about AWD only with them...it's about safety record [and yes AWD does have to do with that], quality, brand recognition, style....

totally agree completely BIgPontiac. GM product planners lack the pulse on what's going on this country...outside the Midwest, it's what's kept them offering trashy interiors and unfinished cars like the GP and Impala for so long [by this I mean the designs are unfinished].

yep yep. GM has been really good as of late at crafting fine detailed lines that are distinct. this could be a big charmer.

those are some fantastic deals! right about now manual would serve me well as a car I could kick around and have a little fun in.

attaining that confidence is what seperates Toyota from GM. down to the bottom, every line that comes out of sensible people is one of respect for Toyota's work, engineering, and future forecast. The same can't be said of GM, especially when even a car GM is producing is contantly thrown into a shadow of doubt: VOLT. And I totally agree with every single word you said.

I trust you. what you've said is intriguing, but it doesn't mean we will see eye to eye. I will still have to see it for myself. I do question the pre-production versus production especially with your comments regarding Impala fit; maybe it's the fit that caught you off guard. That's one thing, fit is important for me, but it's like I gloss over it because it should be done. I see it as easy as pie, if hyundai can do it then so can GM. fit doesn't impress me as much, and I will overlook fit issues if the design is stellar. one thing with regards to fit that was a sore disappointment for me with GM was how tight the door panel was against the window frame in all the cars. another topic for another day. price is a huge consideration. I'm looking at a 27k sedan from Pontiac that already does a lot of fantastic things, so.....quality will be paramount as usual but less critical than say a Cadillac....like the Malibu. Now if everybody could do finish and design the way VW does, GM would be fine. That said, I'm a big fan of the G8's interior design, from the concept to the reality of what we got. the design is as good as anything in the sub 30k group.

trashy is the best way to describe the GP's interior design

I don't have experience with VWs for longevity, so I can't say....but I'd say the problem is they have a rep for crap reliability

In the end I am all for inclusion. I was sort of afraid others had jumped on the wagon and were calling for your removal, and then we'd all dance around your fallen statue.....oh, wait a minute. Do you think it's funny the I can compare you to an evil dictator? You go around shooting off, projecting all this malice and power-complexes.....to ordinary people who are fans. Do you know the definition of someone who is a fan? It means they like something, generally with all thier heart. As I said though, I am willing to forgive and proceed with inclusion. You could make the argument that I should block you, and usually that's just what I do when I scroll right past your post after reading the first sentence, but I'd rather hear from you some of the time then not at all, and I've never done that to anyone, so why start with your [lame ass]. It's the same tone that I recognize is only aiming to set off fireworks. You are a destructionist force usually and your aims impede the general agenda of this forum for the progress of ideas and discourse surrounding everyone's favorite brands. But at least this post was eloquent, and even-handed. I don't have time for your posts or attitudes like yours, or at least the one you display here. You like to set fires to people's ambitions and desires, all to get off seemingly on riling up some average people on the same journey in life as you are. So I make a call to you, earlier you said you thought this forum was for communicating and expressing ideas.....I call on you to ask yourself what ideas PCS brings to the table at C&G, and is he helping the cause.

much of what PCS does qualifies as trolling. Anyways.....I don't dislike you PCS. if you knew me, you'd understand it's quite the contrary. Your attitude on these boards and your disposition is what needs an adjustment. If it were my decision I'd have warned you several times. It's not bad to be reporting BAD news, it's the fact of daily living. Not a problem. It's how you choose to use that information to inflict frustration on others that gets me. I watched Rambo this weekend. You'd be one of the Burmese bad guys I'd be cheering Rambo on for slitting this throat. You torture others needlessly.

nope. you're wrong. I understand GM must do what it needs to survive, and I hope for that, and I could care less if the direction they start taking is one you are proposing, because I know I will not die if these cars can come out, and hey even with what they've got now on the roads they wouldn't have won my business anyways [outside of some Cadillacs, Lambda, and the Sierra]. It's how you put it across. These are our favorite cars....and as someone in the know, you bandy about like you are priveleged and we are toast. And I don't care for it. My proposal: we do away with you.

in the past, the problem with Pontiac's interiors have been both design and quality. The G6 has a problem with quality finishes, but the design is an even bigger offender. I am not against what GM has done with the CTS and Lamdas, as well as the GMT 900s. They've really designed the heck out of those cars, while sticking to acceptable plastics that are par for course but not outstanding or tops of the class either. The design of the G8 interior is hands down the best I've ever seen for a Pontiac, including the now slightly outdated looking GTO. I think because of that, the interior is already a winner in my book. Quality interior materials is one thing that does a lot for Audi/VW, and is certainly one reason for success for them, but it's one part of a car that doesn't amount to more than a 10% part of the whole pie consideration, which is, admittedly, a large chunk.

i think maybe some are justifying him staying because he's a funnel of information..... I don't see that. Besides that, when we can block out the information he provides, why wouldn't we? Since he's anti-Zeta, and, well, it's basically been a mission of the membership of this board to get Zeta approved, and then as many iterations of it produced as possible. I think that's justification for getting rid of him.... But, truthfully speaking, the question of his contribution remains, and does everybody appreciate it. Where has he given us inside info that was (a) helpful (b) worth putting up with the rest of his posts for? When we didn't appreciate buickman's contributions....we got rid of him. And his I'm for GM but I hate GM stance is almost being replicated by Mr. PCS here...

the Magnum is also rather ugly, overdone really. It's impact/style got tired quickly is what I'm saying. Once enough of the base versions started running around, it became more of an eyesore. And it's a Dodge! Dodge's are famous around the country for being unreliable, unless you're a Dodge fan, which I mean no offense to you. The buyer who wanted the instant satisfaction of a gotta have vehicle jumped on it. After that, serious buyers, not impulse buyers, went elsewhere. I'm really just adding reasons to your post. Basing a business case for a limited volume G8 sport wagon on the Magnum doesn't make all that much sense. The sport wagon is more tasteful and yet more modern. It's aggressive, yet conservative. From what I know of the Magnum, given sightlines and such, it wasn't even practical as a wagon alternative for buyers shopping those segments...

Why don't you guys just get rid of PCS? He's an antagonizing bitch of a poster, much like buickman. Isn't that what we do around here when we don't like someone, get rid of them?

A quick check in my area reveals all GTOs from 2006 priced at 24,000 and above. A car that was selling at 29k new commonly, three years after intro [i think '06 may have been the MY GTO even began selling before it was supposed to] to be holding the line like that, and it's a failure. Pontiac G8 ST is simply a cool car. In that sense, yeah it's gonna compare to Solstice, and it'll even be in the price range of the GXP. But the sport truck will have more cargo carrying capacity, less of a chick magnet appeal and more of a badass appeal, and of course tons of power. So it may end up stealing or drawing some buyers from the Solstice, but only the factor of "coolness" and uniqueness. The sport truck will appeal to an older audience as well as it will appeal to a younger audience drawn to the unique appeal of a "V8 pickup car". And it will gain the reputation the GTO caught, which was of an under the radar high performance vehicle. Based on what the car has to offer, based on the package alone, it's ludicrous to say Pontiac won't find 10k buyers per year. Now if its marketed right, it will also help elevate Pontiac as a brand. The G8 is a sport sedan offering something no other sport sedan has in its price range, true balance and handling prowess. The performance is there where other sedans in its price range can't claim, along with offering truly commodious passenger space, good looks, a great price, and kick ass powertrain options. The sport truck will benefit from the G8's limelight. It's only left to be seen how effectively the G8 is cast into that light. Let's go back a little now and remember why the GTO "failed". GTO was priced out of the range of those average Pontiac buyers [teens, young 20's, 30's] looking at a 2 door coupe. It wasn't practical [13 cubic foot trunk]. And it's style was nothing like what Pontiac buyers associated Pontiac with. In fact when it came to style, there really wasn't anything anybody could directly compare it to. It wasn't a Pontiac [in the grand tradition of overtly styled outrageous Pontiac coupes of the '90's, think Grand Am, Firebrid, etc]. And It sure as hell wasn't an import. It wasn't modern, compared to the G35, 3-series coupe, that were all comparably priced. And it had to live in the shadow of a barely-introduced, red-hot famous retro Mustang. Now this serves a purpose because the sport truck is going to be inexpensive. According to quotes, it'll be priced cheaper than the sedan. As for fuel efficiency, it will be at least as efficient or perhaps moreso than the sedan, given it is MUCH LIGHTER. With all that extra equipment, glass, door frames, it has to be. I don't know where you're basing the curb weight off of empowah, or if that just came off the G8 sedan. I wouldn't be surprised to see it that high, but still that'll be not bad. And the fuel efficiency is there. So it's going to appeal to the practical mindset as well. But the bottom line big chunk of its appeal will be to performance buyers looking for something unconventional. Hasn't even the success of the SSR proven that exists [yes, the SSR was successful for a short while, and that was a complex, overpriced, uncapable, nice looking roadster that nobody asked for]? I'm sure there is a market for that. Next is convining them there is a market for the sport wagon.

This will find more buyers than some are speculating here. Many who've bought the GTO did not buy it because of practicality. they bought it for performance, pure and simple. The same will be done in this case. That and the stealth quality of a limited edition performance....pickup! This will do big, and it will especially be big in southern states....like California. [and by big I mean it will meet thier expectations...probably between 12-15k customers per year.

there is no way the G8 plastics are in the same league as the GP. Nothing is in the same leauge as the GP, except even older Pontiacs. Mark my words, I will eat my own shoe if in any way the GP interior plastics are comparable to the G8.

not apples and oranges. high performance cars. the best in the world. whatever can get them to the forefront of performance all across the globe, then so be it. they all do offer different flavors, and ultimately they end up being about different things. vette is for those stoked in americana and offering a complete performance package. 911 is for those seeking the edge of the performance meter, you can't go farther in terms of handling, accel, performance, with a touch more sophistication than vette and viper yet not too much more money. ferrari is for those seeking exclusivity, a little more custom built feel, attention to details, and an exotic look that will clearly show everyone you've got lots of money, yada yada. lamborghini offers incomporable designs, futuristic and no holds barred [which is not always a good thing]. viper is no man's land, the more expensive car for the americana fan, and that's pushing it. they all end up offering up different things, but are trying to acheive similar goals. I think the vette's can be redefined and still offer something distinctly cool. doesn't mean it won't have a V8. but it could do all i just said and only offer a V8 as well, just saying I wouldn't view it as the end of the world if they invested in it.

if it only offered a high tech 6 cylinder that could match the level of power, refinement, flexibility offered by the sixes in the 911, I don't see how it would be a problem. After all, that car sells for more and is revered all over the world. It's usually admired to a slightly higher degree than Vette.....

then why do you comport yourself in such a manner so as to dash people's hopes and dreams. you do your part to act half your age and atoganize a group of devoted followers. as for RWD, GM and the board members here....life goes on, they will not live and die by the fun cars GM produces. we can only hope the right people are guiding GM to incorporate a new generations' ideas of desirability in a car.

they're too afraid to be bold and charge higher prices. they think Americans buy them cause they're cheap. As long as they live in that mentality they will never wake up to a new economy, a new crop of buyers with a minimal amount of wealth, but who are ready to invest in worthwhile technology. It would also raise resale to have cars with better fuel mileage. The reality is your statement is best. The marginal benefit is huge.

interesting....and noted