balthazar

>>Without sales....there are NO profits... << Right, but Cadillac HAS SALES. >>You need the sales, to make the profits.... << Right; Cadillac sales; the sales they have. We got that established. 7200 ATSs sold in 6 months. Lot of vehicles. I have no concern or problem with that number, because BY ITSELF, it's meaningless. Bentley sold 1100 cars in the same period- the number by itself is meaningless. How much profit was made? Not about 'keeping the lights on'- how much literal profit are these vehicles making? Do you know the profit margin on the ATS? DO you know the profit threshold where GM starts stroking it's chin whiskers and thinking about the axe? Because I'd like to know these teeny, enormously significant facts, wouldn't you? Tesla sold like 60K vehicles last year (don't quote me- shooting from the hip). Profit was $0 per car. If they had instead sold 200K vehicles, or 500K... is turning a profit assumed?? I'll answer- it is not. >>...we are saying the same thing....hence your Olds and Pontiac sales figures... << We're saying the opposite from where I sit. Pontiac had HUGE sales (& economies of scale in many instances), but it didn't mean the Division was going to continue. Because it wasn't about 482,xxx sales. Which is why the ATS @ 14K sales and Lamborghini at 500 sales doesn't tell us anything. >>Its safe to say that while there are sales....not enough sales to produce a worth while profit exists.<< Are you talking about heritage brands here, or Cadillac today? >>Increase ATS and CTS sales...increase profits to make it worth while.<< Again I ask- what is the profit margin on the ATS; you seem to have some inside information. How do you know 14K annual "isn't worth while"?

• Pontiac sold 462,583 vehicles in calendar year 2007, but in December of 2008 GM announced it was considering shuttering the storied brand. • Oldsmobile sold 289K vehicles in 2000, yet in December of that year GM announced the phase out of Olds. • Guess who's sold a mere 507 cars in the U.S. year to date? Lamborghini. Sales are incidental; PROFIT matters.

CaminoLS6 was all for the Regal wagon; perhaps he'll wander back here to shout 'hurrah!'. - - - - - Anyway- we'l see how the Regal TourX does. I wonder if the shift toward CUVs MAY create a slight uptick in interest in wagons/hatches, since the only advantage of CUVs over a same-size sedan is cargo space (and a higher seat position).

Consumers DON'T CARE. I don't, either. Frankly, I wish my Buick was far rarer than it is (11,451 units). Were it the same year Eldorado hardtop, it'd be 1 of 975 hardtops. HEY! Cadillac should have dropped the Eldorado for '60 and not bothered with future years where the car was selling 40K units a year (1972). I mean; "free fall", right? >>As far as Porsche 911 goes, that car alone might make more profit than the whole Cadillac line, or Acura or Lincoln line.<< Yeah; no. The entire reason Porsche went into making CUVs was to stay afloat (per company talking heads).

So let's all sit back and watch the kia stinger become the #1 seller in the segment, and all the rest of the models fold up their tents. What do you think smk, will it take a whole 24 months for the segment to be made up of 1 car?

Here's my answers to the above : • Am totally indifferent to that era Caprice/MCs. • Do YOU know why the Tri-5 Chevys (and the '49-50 Fords) were sometimes referred to as 'shoebox'es? • 4-door coupes aren't any MORE interesting that the 4-dr sedans they're tweaked from; they're both just 4-dr sedans. • Yeah- most japanese cars just don't come across as very interesting or engaging. IMO that definately includes the Skylines- so bland.

Yes, the #1 seller in the segment makes ALL OTHER competitor sales numbers look 'bad'. Thanks for the heavy lifting. You're falling into the same 'metric hole' that smk does- sales mean everything and anyone who's not #1 is 'dying' or needs to be killed off. All the negative press centered around Cadillac sales numbers when -in the U.S. market- audi is in the same volume boat. Where is the hand-wringing over audi pulling out of the U.S. market? When Cadillac annual sales dropped 8% 2 years ago, it was all 'tailspin' and 'slumping', but when BMW shows the same degree of drop; nary a whisper. Cadillac is not a full-line, high volume, mass-market brand, I don't know what's so frickin hard to understand about that. They just aren't and they're not angling to be. Corvette is "wiping the floor" vs. 911 in U.S. sales, 13707 vs. 4395 thru June. Should Porsche change up it's "confusing" catalog? Should they consider dropping the 911? Consolidate the Boxster/Cayman/911 into one car (total sales 6869 thru June)? Those are 'crappy sales numbers' vs. it's MAIN competition (I'm aware the 911 starts @ $89K- all hi-po sports car purchases are disposable income- the price tier thing is far less relevant that in other segments) Guess what- no one gives a shit how few 911's sell relative to other hi-po sports cars (except Porsche accountants, perhaps). Everybody is just happy a competitive, cool sports coupe exists to buy. Tho Cadillac has not shown me their books, I am confident they are highly profitable overall, and with limited production capacity- they may want to grow slowly if at all. Perhaps... JUST perhaps; the brand is more concerned with PROFIT over volume. None of us here can make any calls on that issue; no data. - - - - - BMW 3/4 series : 48,058 thru June. Audi A-4 : 17,269 thru June. Cadillac ATS : 7,209 thru June. Numbers-wise, the 3/4-Series is wiping the floor with the A-4. Yes, and there's a considerable volume margin between the A-4 & ATS, also. I DON'T CARE. I would NEVER buy a car based on how many OTHER people buy that car- that's immaterial. Where would Tesla be if people approached their early product with the same mindset? Is the ATS, physically, competitive in it's segment? Obviously; it is. Is it profitable for it's maker? That is an unknown, but gets back to the business case of whether or not it's 'healthy' for the brand. Beyond that, and any question of reliability/longevity... if the car appeals to ME and I'm agreeable to the price, I'll buy it.

>>Yeah...that is why Cadillac sedans sales are through the roof... Please dont tell me with a straight face that what Cadillac is doing is anything but confusing... If it wasnt confusing...then month by month sales of ALL its sedans would NOT be down in the USA...<< "Confusion" is not the causation behind sales. If you disagree, please post your data. I'm not remotely confused by Cadillac's catalog (and I've never owned one). Or perhaps you are right and 'confusion' is more widespread than you think : AUDI ~ A3 : down 29% (1904 units/June) A6 : down 4% (1425 units) A7 : down 25% (224 units) A8 : down 18% (301 units) Only the 'non-confusing' A4 & A5 are up. Look up the other segment sedans- are they also 'confusing'? >>PSS: Cadillac is selling a ton of vehicles in...CHINA.<< They use the same names there- why aren't the Chinese 'confused'? >>For the first time in history....Cadillac sells more outside its home base.<< That's actually a very GOOD track record - the Germans crossed that line DECADES ago. Haven't many people lamented Cadillac is a 'U.S. market only' vehicle, to it's detriment?

>>...a quiet luxury car... or a performance luxury car?<< EVERY luxury brand does degrees of both. Some folk seem to want to hold Cadillac to a one-dimensional point in space AFA 'definition' goes, whereas the competition generally has a far wider range of product by 'definition' than Cadillac. >>.DO NOT do both. Its confusing for the would be customer.<< Absolutely do both. It's NOT confusing. Tastes & trends ebb & flow, diversity is key to anticipating that. With lambo/ferrari/porsche becoming truck manufacturers, there is no one dimensionality in the auto industry... not if you want to survive. CT6 is the spearhead going into the future. It's EASY to use another supplier and upgrade -say- your leather upholstery. Nailing class-leading chassis dynamics/technology AND weight in one move is what's hard. That's the foundation for a vehicle's success right there- everything else beyond that & powertrain is icing.

All EVERY sedans are "failing", or- what you mean to say- sales are edging down. Lacrosse outsells every Lexus car except the rebadged Camry ES. Lexus cars are down 27% this year. Guess all other Lexus cars should 'go away' also. This fanatical fixation on sales charts above everything else is baffling.

I dunno- these I could live with (today) :: '59 300-E 413CI ~ '62 GP 421CI ~ '66 Cadillac H&E wagon would make a killer trans-state cargo vehicle, 429CI ~

I can't see a business case for a $13K Spark AND a $15K Sonic. But the Spark is hideous in & out, I would dump it for the Sonic anyday (I've driven a Spark, but not a Sonic). There's serious overlap there.

Got hired to replace the engine/trans in a '63 Corvette. Have no idea of the Corvette's true condition- it's been off the road since 1969. While you'd think that means it'd be cherry, it's been outside under tarps. No salt from the roads.... but we'll see. Owner wants to get it running/driving- I would welcome working in my shop for a few months straight. Also saw a quad-headlight Lark & a mid-50s Hawk in a side yard, moldering away.

These are predictions from "sources", not confirmed. Obviously the CT6 isn't going anywhere.

Only thing smaller is the CLA has no back seat.

I'm sure whatever the numbers are, they aren't huge. I was just replying to "they can't sell any" nonsense. Hyperbole es muy grande. 3-series is down 25% m-t-m & 16% on the year. "Not selling" here, too, I guess. Because; percentages.

They do sell the ATS. ATS-V starts @ $61K, BTW, to your other faux point of 'can't sell at $40K'. WRT audi/BMW= the cars they sell in the Regal's price range (A4) aren't luxury cars either; these are premium class vehicles. Like the Regal GS. No, not Mercedes Navara "premium".

The issue with throwing up (hee-hee: we're talking about the model X and I said 'throwing up' ) pics of '50s MBs is that the brand wasn't a luxury brand THEN; then they were for the masses/ mainstream. The problem arises once you move past Mercedes benchmarking Cadillac and becoming a luxury brand in the 1990s, and heavily marketing that ID. NOW a rebadged crapbox truck with power levels from a decade ago and a bare minimum of effort to 'make' it a MB, and it comes off as a shuddering hot mess. If Daimler had left it in the commercial so-called 'division' and sold them all as refrigerator white/black plastic utility vehicles; maybe. But the "World's First True Premium Pickup'?????? Not sure Daimler can back out of this hole.

^ I guess 'as OK as the others' is the new tagline.

Toyotas are notoriously poorly built via the 10s of millions in recalls- not an option for the educated consumer.

Wait, it's one thing to dump a rebadge out & call it 'premium' (as a duck under 'luxury'), but they actually had the gall to call it the 'world's first true premium pick up'??? I keep waiting for The Onion to claim responsibility for this.

"They could compete IF THEY WANT TO"???????? WTF happened to "The Best or Nothing" or "Engineered like No Other"??? Did they let all their product planners go?

I would've liked to see taller rear tails, but the ones it's currently sporting are clean. I see lots of higher end stuff regularly- I've seen 3 or 4 Maseratis in the last 2 weeks (1 may have been a repeat). I've seen a number of CT6's but this was the first 'long look' at speed. S-classes are all over and they're always black it seems. Since the last redesign was so minor, it's like the same design has been running around for 12 years. It's so safe and bland, but MB designs for China, so.

was tagging along with a brand new CT6 on US Route 1 today, dark red. Gotta, say; Cadillac nailed this car extremely well. As it moved fore & aft of me, giving me dozens of angles to watch it (slow traffic) at times 4 or 5 cars back, it just has a boatload of presence. I think those who've banged it for being 'conservative' missed the point that it looks exceptionally, terrifically good. Has the 1 thing BMW does well; stance, and adds one thing BMW is mediocre at; sleekness.