balthazar

FWD is not on the radar of the BMW buyer, esp since Corporate revealed 80% think (in other words: WANT) the 1 is FWD, so actively marketing FWD (being the case with the upcoming ones) will obviously attract a large component, IMO. But the 'damage' isn't short terms sales (or lack thereof), but the inverse message to what BMW has preached openly in ads previously. IOW, we'll have polar opposites (as stated by BMW marketing dept) in the same showroom with the same badges. Whether this will erode BMW's 'message' or whether what Moltar stated above ('clueless') is closer to reality, time will tell.

BMW has totally missed the mark on the 1-series, the paltry sales prove that. The "1" > "2" is a shell game; it's the product that needs revamping.

In Jersey, you can buy as a minor, but you'd need a title to get it registered, right? Until it's in your name, your parent would technically have to register it. Since there's no prize in this thread, you call it like you see it WRT the Nova. Has it been sitting since '83 then, or has it been exercised now & again? Time is generally not kind to '70s vehicles continuously on the road. Have you ever posted a pic of the '70- I'd sure like to see it.

Longest owned here so far ? : '64 Pontiac GP, bought 7/86 : 27+ years I was only 5 years old at the time, but I was heavily into cars even then, obviously!

^ Agreed RE the temps: the LEDs in many cases run hotter. In smaller housings it may be an issue. Toro has metal light housings or plastic?

I think LED upgrades in existing housings (like on the Toro) is fine, esp in the tails/turn signals. I was thinking this for the B-59, which has nice round tails that really would benefit from the brightness, I think. However, not sure I've noticed this upgrade in a vintage unit in person to see how it looks.

'04 Silverado 2500HD, bought in June '06 with 46K, now has 119K.

mercedes (and to a lesser extent; BMW) are sales machines, focused primarily on volume goals. mercedees has 42 models out there, so by segment 'carpet bombing' they get a higher aggregate volume. Cadillac has less than half the number of models MB has (18). I like to see Cadillac getting back to a more 'traditionally average' volume rather than resorting to dipping down into the Malibu segment, price-wise. Focusing on sales volume is how the 3-series lost the handling/roadability crown in the entry segment to the ATS.

Clarify "C1.5" for me, plz. I had always grouped the '53-55s as '1st gen', '56-62 and 2nd... it was years later when I became aware of the 'C1', 'C2' common definitions. You're talking about the '60, correct? If yes, I think we're exactly on the same page, no?

Forbes article states MB stands at 35%, and BMW is at 32%. This was measured as a result of 2011 Q2 sales (article is 2 yrs old). http://www.forbes.com/sites/jimgorzelany/2011/10/13/cars-with-the-most-brand-loyal-buyers/ Like anything, each study can & will take a different tack on the question. Look at all the different average buyer age stats out there.

He didn't indicate either the '64 or '60 were for sale, but he said he had 22 cars and sold like 15 recently to pay bills. Will inquire... but not sure I am in his general price range for doing a deal, other than the 442 mentioned above. The '60 would sure be fun to bang around in without worrying about it, tho.

"uses same as found in" then. Means the same thing to smk.

^ Right. I don't recall reading incessant ranting by audi A5 owners that their engine is sourced from a $16K VW. I assume they have access to Google, too.

Are they losing them or are they buying the same model over and over? See; I never understood that a person, attracted to -say here- a 3-series, buys 1 or 2 over time, then decides they want a 'larger sausage' and buys a 5-series or 2, then buys a 7 in old age. That scenario has been fed to us for decades as 'how things work'... but the numbers do NOT support that. This is why I question the vehement assertion that a luxury brand has to match every other one tier-for-tier or model-for-model. I don't believe people's preferences (aside from very tangible needs like a growing family) change that predictably or that commonly. Yes; I could certainly more readily believe that a first-time 3-series buyer would buy another (tho the stats there don't support that as a majority, either!). In truth, the majority of all BMW buyers (this certainly applies to other brands as well) are first time buyers who DON'T return. It's surprising that that largest pool seems to always be growing, tho.

As much as I initially scoff at the idea that Mini has 7 'models', I have long thought that this business model should be gravitated toward by a lot more manufacturers; multiple variations on basically 1 car.

What a cornucopia of sightings today! circa '74 Nova coupe, bright red w/ black stripes, mags, looked real sharp but too new to bother stopping. For sale on roadside. '71 Olds Cutlass 2-dr hardtop, 442 clone, performance built w/ 455, purple paint (has to go) and black factory interior, body had issues, for sale @ $6000, in garage. '68 LeMans 2-dr hardtop, factory 4-spd, quickie black spray job, terrible body, for sale @ $5500 on roadside. '66 Cadillac Coupe de Ville, blue with Bellflower tips, up on shop rack getting air bags installed, NFS. '64 Corvette Stingray, SB with BB hood, gold with black interior, awaiting resto, in garage, NFS. '63 Ford Fairlane 2-dr sedan, red w/ red interior, very nice shape, rolling. '63 Studebaker GT Hawk, yellow, very nice shape, resto-mod with Chevy 383, customer car at repair shop, NFS. '62 Newport 4-dr hardtop, black primer, behind house, spotted on the fly. '60 Corvette, white w/ red cove, red interior, decent but crazed paint, runner, in garage. Hoping the owner might consider selling. '58 Grumann shortie AL step van, bare AL, all there but unrestored, awaiting customizing, NFS. '57 Canadian Pontiac Pathfinder 2-dr sedan delivery, one of about 450 units, claimed one of 5 known to exist, very nice med blue w/ white spear, for sale @ circa $18K, in storage unit. '55 Thunderbird, red w/ red interior, very nice resto, for sale @ $25K, in garage. '50 Merc, chopped, tubbed, primer, modern Lincoln interior (which totally ruined it), claimed first pro-streeted chopped Merc, NFS. '47 GMC diesel bus again, it's really calling me. In same driveway for over 30 years. For sale. '39 Packard 4-dr sedan, senior model, dash plaque claimed once owned by George Lucas (Seinfeld 'John Voigt's Lebaron' episode came immediately to mind), yellow, solid but needed cosmetics, for sale. '36 Ford panel delivery, dark red, decent driver shape, 302/3-spd, for sale @ $18K, in garage. '34 Ford panel delivery, FG body, Chevy 409, chopped, deep in process of being built, grey primer, NFS. Owner of some of these cars ('in garage') claimed he was buying a Duesenberg, but far too many inconsistencies in the story for it to be remotely possible. I'm still incredulous at the so-called 'details'. As the same owner has the '71 442 my buddy & I will be pursuing, I am FASCINATED to learn what this car is (I already know what it is NOT). Even the well-done replicas are 6-figure cars. Same owner that owns the 2 Corvettes listed above, said he has a 'big tank' '63, which is the Z06 option- worth a crap ton. 199 '63 Z06s, with only 63 units having the big tank option (36.5 gallons).

Sure; "journalism" for the most part revolves around incessant regurgitation of other sources, and it only takes 1 wag.... You would think that if so many folk used google to car shop, the corporate-released stat I posted above your's would be impossible....

Do you believe anyone is going to look at an ELR and believe that? Remember, 80% of bmw 1-series buyers thought the car they BOUGHT was FWD.

New S-classes are going for $10K above sticker around here. But you're right, as the vehicle ages, discounts become commonplace. I would imagine so. Mercedes never really discounted the S-class, even in it's 7th model year of the previous generation, the manufacturer incentives were pretty low. Dealers may discount, but dealers discount every car. This ELR won't sell, it is nearing Porsche 911 money and it ain't gonna perform like a 911. Well, of course you are incorrect here. Average transaction price is $85K for a car that commonly stickers for solidly over $100K. Doesn't matter where the money off is sourced from. Look it up. And the BMW 6-series coupe goes for Porsche 911 money, doesn't perform like it, yet (some) folk still buy that. ELR & 911 aren't going to be cross-shopped. This is not mercedes/bmw, where every car is pushed & whored to sell 100,000 units annually. Cadillac is not gunning for mainstream, mass-production, every-5th-car-on-the-road commonality.

It's not going to be $75K other than on paper. Same scenario with the Damiler s-class; on paper it starts at $92K, but with an average of $15K in options, it still sells for $85K on average! Between dealer & OEM incentives/deals, MB is knocking $15-20 grand off the price. The ELR is not $80K; MSRP - Fed credit is $68K. Deals will knock that down a bit. C'mon you guys, you know how car pricing goes, or should by now. Cars seldom EVER sell at sticker. I never saw such tunnel vision on an MSRP before. Ratchet back on the hyperbole.

Didn't mercedes copy audi there? Remember; Cadillac has FWD first, now all the germans are copying Cadillac there.

I just asked my wife if she had heard of a Tesla car and she said 'yes'. 'Where do you know of it from?' 'One got towed from the parking lot at work last week.' 'How did you know it was a Tesla'? 'It was a "Tesla" flatbed'. 'So you saw the car itself well enough, what would you guess it cost?' 'I dunno, $35K?' 'No, it's MSRP is $71K. Now that you know that, did you think it looked like a car that costs that much?' 'No! It looks like any other car out there, just a little bit larger.' 'Do you think any car is worth $71K?' 'No, but if I did spend that much money, I'd certainly want other people to notice my car.' Now, she's not a car enthusiast, but I tend to agree with her; the Tesla, while looking nice, is rather generic. Out on the road, if I am paying attention, I notice the emblem in the grille, not the rest of the car. It really should have been more expressive/unique for an upstart independent. Some angles of the shots of the ELR look really dynamic; if the car in person looks that good, it's going to drive a surprising amount of sales. Plus it's a 2-dr in a roiling sea of 4-drs. I think it'll do better than a lot of people think. It would be interesting to know what Cadillac is hoping to move (tho I in no way think they should say publicly).

Car packaging really hasn't improved much. Greenhouse tumblehome & windshield rake, in the name of aero, has really reached an extreme, and it does impede entry/exit on the bulk of modern cars. This surprises me, because cars have only gotten taller on average in the last 20 years. I thought we were onto something common sensical when the doors used to curve into the roof some, but that's been abandoned.

150 in THREE years?!? This eclipses the Edsel, hands down.

Well, the roof is all there, I think the floors were fine, There were only thumb-sized rot holes in the front fenders... but it's a full resto project rather than a spit-shine flip. Price is supposedly 1200, my buddy is a master wheeler-dealer tho; he' says he's going to offer 300. The shop wants it GONE and no one else seems to be looking. He'll likely get it... but it will likely be stripped. C'mon Bill, this is you- save it!