balthazar

He sure has an intersting past, as so many do of his generation (as opposed to -say- pushing keyboard buttons for 30-40 years). Good to hear he's in the clear.

For some reason the box looks like aluminum to my eye... besides the fact it's painted- how are you gauging weld penetration, cm?

L-R : '59 Buick Electra 225, '60 Edsel Ranger, '60 Plymouth Sport Fury.

I was not aware of the customization of this Indy pace car- it's rather extensive for a pace car, which traditionally was lucky to get non-standard paint. Interesting piece : Here's the text that was posted with the pic, from March 2008: >>"1977 was the fourth of four years that Olds served as the official pace car to the Indy 500 during the 1970's - more than any other manufacturer! The car used for the 61st Indy 500 was a 77 Olds Delta 88 Targa Top driven by James Garner. The car featured a unique targa top design that would not be available on the replicas. Bucket seats and console mounted shifter were also unique to the pace car. There are two originals of this car. One is in the Indy Racing Museum, the other, the actual pace car driven by James Garner in my garage. It has 19,603 miles. We are looking to sell it, or find a place that might be interested in buying it. We have several more pictures upon request. 708.331.4800"<< Go git it!

>>"Ok your right Amerca is the styling capital of the world and I compared the Seville to the the Rolls. [Don't know where you pulled that one out of??]"<< I never said you compared the Seville to the Rolls - I did that via example, which is how the Seville entered the conversation. You must've missed that. >>"Ok you should be feel better now??"<< I not should be yet feel better. >>"The 55 Chevy story is from a publication that did a story on Harley Earl a few years back and that is what was stated I have a choice to believe you or a creditable publication?"<< You don't think there could possibly be an agenda on the part of Earl, even some of the time? A printed publication has NEVER made a mistake? No- not possible? Interesting. All right then, ignore me: why not just believe your EYES? '53 Paris Auto Show ferrari : production '55 Chevrolet : Don't want you to miss it : see that sheetmetal hood & stainless bezel over the '55 lamp? Yep- that's clearly a rip-off cause some magazine said Earl said so. How about this- he was inspired by the ferrari at the Paris auto show, but never used any of that inspiration on the actual car's headlights? THAT, I can agree to. >>"The only reason the Germans were behind after the war in the early 50's was they lost the war. They were just trying to survive."<< How did I KNOW that one would be trotted out again ?? Regardless, I'm glad we can agree on this point: thru the '30s, '40s '50s & '60s- most european makes were behind American makes in progressive design. >>"Mercedes in the 20's and 30's were second to none and built cars that were styled very progressive for the age."<< This, without question, is subjective. I for one would easily put Cadillac ahead of Mercedes. Ever see the Fleetwood Aerodynamic coupes that were copied by many from the '30s, including mercedes? Numerous examples of styling leadership by Cadillac in this area- another discussion. >>"There is no right or wrong just as in our opinions."<< Oh come on- facts are right or wrong, and that's what I'm discussing here. 'Cadillac began building cars in 1855.' That's wrong. 'Chevrolet copied ferrari headlights for '55'- that's wrong, too. >>"Anything I have said or posted here can be seen in the cars and or in print. I did not just pull anything out of the air.'<< This is the monster problem: sloppy 'journalism' and 'research' appearing in print has mislead countless enthusiasts for years and years. Ever hear- 'you can't always believe what you read' ?? Let's keep it thematic: think of used car classified ads: there, someone is selling you on an item, how often have you read glowing, rosily optimistic claims for something that's obviously not the case? You learn to read between the lines, you have to to protect yourself and it's a practice you should ALWAYS enact in an effort to learn the truth. Earl was a designer (early on), a leader, an administrator, an inspirer... and a salesman- he had to be; it was his job. OF COURSE he has embellished over the years in his capacity for the world's largest automaker. He was a MASTER at imagery & manipulation. ANY more romance he could instill in a basic, family transportation vehicle would only have a positive effect. 'Ferrari headlights on a Chevy' - how cool is that? But I'll not say 'too bad it didn't happen', because Chevy already ran the same headlight 'design' as the '53 ferrari used, on the '49, '50, '51, '52 & '53 Chevys ('54 used a fluted bezel)... in fact so did dozens and dozens of makes across the world. Bottom line: the pics do not lie. All that said - hyper, you can have the last word in the interest of further wondering about the Camaro. I've said my piece. It's not you so much as misinformation that gets me steamed- sorry if it came off as personal (no doubt it did, tho I tried to avoid that). Peace.

yeah- that's fascinating and new: the 3000th wondering post on the upcoming camaro & it's specs. So engaging- thank God we're 'back on track'. hyper, I find your posts typical of those who don't want to be bothered with specifics & facts, often coming off as a dismissive wave of the hand. Generalize everything and you can never be called on it, right? You won't admit mistatements, won't even address them, and there they stand, ready to mislead someone looking to learn from the internet. And I'm 'distorting'.

From Leno's Garage board: >>"Bill Mitchell from GM is best known for the 1941 Cadillac, the 1964 Buick Riviera, and the 1975 Cadillac Seville. When questioned about the last one as to whether his design team copied Mercedes Benz Mitchell scoffed; “Hell no, we copied Rolls Royce. My dad always said if you’re going to steal, rob a bank not a grocery store!”<< The idea that the '76 Seville was copied from a mercedes is laughable (unless you are blind). Ford used to run ads claiming their Granada looked "just like the newest Cadillac" (Seville)... and again, only the blind would NOT laugh outloud at the pics. Likewise, the idea that Rolls was a heavy influence is equally unbelievable.... but note the tone Mitchell gave in his answer: all 100% blustery American marketing, nothing more. Look at his dismissal of mercedes (actually quite valid at the time). Rolls was an anachronism thruout it's history, but supposedly that was it's appeal. But a design leader?? Please. Even that theory doesn't hold water. Go look up '73-4 Rolls pics vs. the '76 Seville if you don't believe me and choose to take everything from Mitchell at face value.

I do not think the current V-Series badging looks cheap at all. But I do think if a 'V' was incorporated instead of the current emblem, it should be a much narrower & tighter 'V' than used in the past; that's a wide V and the Cadillacs are a LOT narrower than they were in the '80s. Something more to the proportion of the '39 or '48 style.

Maybe if you need your car to look thru your windshield instead of you, you should stay at home in bed or ride the bus. How long before steering is computer-controlled?

>>"American designer spent most of their time taking Ideas from Europe and incorperating them into their own original designs "<< Sorry; not "most". They have many times said so, but the side-by-side evaluations of such just don't support that claim in most instances. It's a romantic idea that plays well with the starry-eyed, but steel doesn't lie. Europe was a decade behind American design for decades. And it doesn't help anyone to learn the truth when people get sloppy and attribute more & more to 'European influence' with zero validity of such.... like, I don't know... '55 Chevy headlights being stolen from ferrari. One can't just spout off distortions like that and still call oneself an enthusiast.

You cover the grille/headligthts of the above AR and that sedan could be a-n-y-t-h-i-n-g. I wish to hell designers would put a little effort into the sides & greenhouses of cars. Take the 'floating rod' off the sides and this lil gem truely is a unique compact, and this one was penned in '91. I'd drive one, and I hate tiny cars.

I think 68's pokemon description fits the subcompact perfectly. It's not ugly, but it's no prize winner, either. Huge schnozz; the frt wheels are under the windshield! 3/4ths of the price of an exotic is it's image, whereas the 8c has none to project. IMO.

wow... that makes real sense there, HE.

Well, with a DuraMax in there, you'd certainly save wear & tear on the rear tires.... because they'd be up in the air all of the time. The 'Max is one heavy engine.

>>"Seems to me that someone is searching for a scapegoat to protect those "wonderful Opels" that don't seem to be saving Saturn after all."<< Opel had brief success in this country when they first started importing them, which was '58. By the late '60s sales were in the toilet, untill lack of interest killed it dead here. The Cadillac Opel (Catera) sparked nothing, and so far the Saturn Opels have sparked very little. Seems to me the continual, misguided faith in everything foreign won't allow the 'faithful' to open their eyes to the brand's potential in the U.S.... which has repeatedly been meager at best.

>>"Sorry if reality hits but most American designers have for years drawn upon Europe to inspire their designs. Harley Earl and Bill Mitchell were inspired by Europe and their designs. They took the ideas they saw and molded them into true original American classics."<< Likewise, as unpopular an idea it is to so many who 'know' otherwise, MANY european designers drew upon years & years of American design for inspiration. Look to the '30s, '40s, and '50s, where the germans, for instance, ran about 10 years behind American design. BMW was still producing tall, vertical-grilled sedans with un-integrated pontoon fenders in the late '50s, while Buick had the same fenders with a modern horizontal grille in '42. This is a '58 !! BMW : Later still, look at a late '60s mercedes and a late '60s Cadillac vs. today's versions. One of those 2 makes built tiny, tinny, stripped-down, anemic sedans back then.... while both build powerful luxurious cars today. Wonder who learned from who? I still stand behind my theory that a LOT of the infrequent, supposed 'european influence' quoted by American designers was merely clever marketing to sell the product... because in most of these instances, the 'influence' is just not evident.

IMO- the statement these gimmicks make is : 'I'm a lard-ass as a driver, and I want it all done for me so I don't have to pay attention to anything but my tom-tom and my cell-cell'.

Didn't clik the link yesterday. 50 white cars and like 10 are bmws, 3 M3s alone. Another stupid list of 'what I like'... as if anyone cares.

>>"More unwanted bull&#036;h&#33; to allow people not to think while driving and cost use precious MPG because of weight."<< Bing!Bing!Bing! We have a Winnah! Pointless, worthless, needless, over-complicated garbage that yet again chips away at the sport/science of driving.... by the driver. This will accomplish ONE thing, and ONE thing ONLY -- it'll enable texters.

How is renaming Saturn as 'Opel' getting rid of a brand ??? Everything stays the same except the sign on the dealership changes. Ooooo. GMC has the lowest overhead and the highest profit- can't see dumping that accomplishing anything helpful whatsoever. Saab is a perennial money loser and has the smallest dealer base- strong candidate there, IMO (I can't understand anyone being a 'savior' for saab- to what legitimate end? Burn more money for a few more decades?). Hummer's time is over, unless the overhead is low enough to allow a limited niche brand, joined-up with another dealer group. Is land rover potentially folding too (pricey, look-@-me SUVs)? Pontiac, as a car-centric division, has far more potential than Hummer and certainly than saab. I never got the china = Buick safe theory when there is zero overlap from china >< U.S.... but OK.

Waitaminnit.... isn't this the 2nd C&Ger to fall for a P-67 ?? What's goin' on here?

>>"...lookit at what great fore-wheeled beau-tee the Itah-luns made on this big cumbersome American frame"<< Oh yea- I do agree with you there! Of course; such a viewpoint in a modern mainstream rag is completely & depressingly typical. Nevermind the reality that these cars were not then and are not now highly coveted, but primarily viewed as oddball stepchilds, with values accordingly. Frankly, they're ugly bastardizations; Cadillac's --and I used that wording of ownership as loosely as possible-- Banglization.

Oh God- I can barely pick one out on the street, nevermind ID which model it is. {checks google...} : the rental up the street actually IS a continental GT. Just looks like a fat jaguar from the front, instead of an OLD fat jaguar like the brooklands does. Junk.

Was talking to a collector/restorer about 2 years ago; I stopped in because he had a B-59 in the driveway (in addition to a B-58). He had already sold one restored turbo Chrysler T&C convert for $25K and was finishing up restoring another one for resale for the same price. He claimed they (turbo/converts) are very collectible. Was checking out a 'purty young thang' yersterday in a parking lot, and after she finally got out of her car and went into the store, I realized she had been sitting in a blue Reliant K sedan in real nice shape.